A blunt exchange of opinions on FB.

[CreeDo]

I know a lot of people say "eh, fb drama, who cares?"

But lately, Facebook is the only place where you can see pro players
say exactly what's on their mind, and publicly interact with each other
and the promoters. You just don't see this stuff (much) on AZ.
And I think it'd make for interesting conversation.

I noticed Justin (JCIN) hasn't been posting much on here
but he's still expressing himself. Just elsewhere.
He made a pretty blunt post... these are not his exact words,
but I think this is a decent paraphrasing of it:

'If some pro players are mad about the idea of invitationals, keep in mind
you brought it on yourself, and if you behave like a jerk then people
won't go out of their way to make you money.'
'if you're wondering if this is directed at you then it probably is'.

Some notable replies (direct quotes):

Shane Van Boening: Agree, well said... Pool gets old when you hear pool players bashing promoters.
Respect the promoters that try to make something happen for pool players.
Especially promoters giving away thousands of dollars.
People really need to keep the negative to themselves.

Oscar Dominguez: Man I was all happy I got a spot then all hell broke loose on my page lol.
I feel for those who are unhappy but I really can't too much. Because if roles were reversed
I highly doubt anyone would say, maybe Oscar deserved a spot.

I just try to pay my bills and win. That's all I care about and I don't kiss anyone's ass to do it.
If I get screwed I go fix some pool tables and work harder on my game to prove them wrong.
It's life and wish them luck because they aren't bad people. Good guys who are upset at being overlooked.
I know the feeling, lol. It sucks but I just made sure I kept going. Anyways, I really don't think it's a huge deal.
We are all friends and all in the same line of work. We all need money and maybe one day
we can all be happy with how pool treats us

Jennifer Barretta: Someone finally said it!

Some replies from JCIN:

Justin Collett: Jeff Beckley - I agree that the short money mindset is a big problem with trying to
grow the pro game. I understand where it comes from and why but that "I get mine and screw everyone else"
attitude is a big reason why things are where they are. There are plenty of guys who are smarter than that
in the game but they are having to fight through a landscape handed down to them from the last several decades.

Oscar Dominguez - This LA invitational was not what I was speaking about specifically but it is an indicator of
what is to come. One on one matches/invitationals and large entry fee events are the future in this country.
We both know people who could finance any type of events they choose to but do not because of their experiences in the game.
See Badi Nazhat.

Just to clarify for those stuck on manufacturing personal drama. The point of my post was conduct.
Anyone who says "Person X" is the problem is missing the point. I explain it to non pool people like this
when they ask me about working in the pool world: "In the world I work in, if someone rips you off or screws
you over they do not get ostracized or penalized...because its your fault. You were dumb enough to actually
trust someone enough to put them in a position to screw you over."
[...]"This culture is why the game is where it is."

Then Brandon Shuff made his own post:

"Justin, with such harsh words you should specify the list of these "some pro players" you are talkin about?
Without specifying, you are attacking a wide range of players and it looks very unprofessional.
Can't believe Ozzy is your boss and let's you say that, he is suppose to be Mr. Business professional
and y'all are representing CSI. You mislead the public without naming names pal, I'm just sayin.
I only represent myself but I do feel for the general pro players in this country. It's a bigger deeper story
than anyone thinks or knows and no one is perfectly correct. I got nothing against you but
don't act like y'all are saints in the pool world. My two cents and hope you're not offended.
Sincerely,
a cool calm collective,
Brandon Shuff"

Which touched off some more replies.

John Schmidt: Justin's a good guy. I've known him long time and he's asset for pool.
If he ever quits csi I'll hire him as bodyguard. He's like 6foot 7 and handles a firearm
better then I handle poolcue. In closing lets all get along.

Brandon: John thats a very classy thing to say when you know what was said was toward you.
I wonder which other players?. I'm really sorry just had to blast that one big guy. too good to pass up.
don't hate me. it really is a good topic though. on the real though I wish everyone could get along.
if noone ever speaks up about things it will never heal.

John: Let's all work together and make csi money which will be good for them , us and billiard industry.
I know justin was directing insults at me directly of course because I'm buddies with Rodney
but I say again mark and justin r good guys and so is Rodney so let's move forward and stay positive .

Think about it mark justin and all players. Mark and justin bring powerful tools to the table and r good hearted
people who want to make money of course like they should. They also want to c sport do well.
Also u players bring powerful tools also. Let's all work together and b strong as one. All the infighting is
non productive etc. Mark and justin you guys have been good to me over years lets all match forward
and make your career better and mine together. I think I speak for all pros myself and Rodney also.

 

[JB Cases]

On FB they can each control the conversation and delete interjecting trolls. On here they would all have to fade a ton of trolling with no way to cut those people off at the knees.

That's why they prefer FB IMO.

PLUS it's more personal with the way FB works - easy to use on the phone, easier than Tapatalk.

AND almost everybody is real names on FB. So they don't have to deal with anon trolls either too much.

 

[branpureza]

On FB they can each control the conversation and delete interjecting trolls. On here they would all have to fade a ton of trolling with no way to cut those people off at the knees.

That's why they prefer FB IMO.

PLUS it's more personal with the way FB works - easy to use on the phone, easier than Tapatalk.

AND almost everybody is real names on FB. So they don't have to deal with anon trolls either too much.

If only you had to sign onto AZ through facebook like a lot of other sites! Haha

I agree though, trolling on this forum is way too easy for a lot of people who have nothing better to do with their time.

 

[Black-Balled]

I haven't read anything about the la event, but the chatter about csi's event kind of surprises me.

It is a relatively small event, it is obvious that some people would not be playing.

Also notable, that csi chose to express why some folks weren't invited. I think that was more than a little officious. Would have been more professional to take the high road and celebrate the reasons folks *were*invited.

 

[one stroke]

The fact is that they are beginning to corner the market and no one who wants to play in their events is going to say anything that might cost them a chance to play in one



1

 

[The Saw]

All of this is what pool needs, IMO.... The bickering, in-fighting, players getting called out, players speaking up, educated fans speaking up, it's all stuff that needs to be said. There's only a small handful of American players that get it and know how to act, the rest have a true entitlement mentality. Well, that entitlement mentality is why they are dead f'ing broke, just like those with the same mentality in the real world.

 

[Ky Boy]

all of this is what pool needs, imo.... The bickering, in-fighting, players getting called out, players speaking up, educated fans speaking up, it's all stuff that needs to be said. There's only a small handful of american players that get it and know how to act, the rest have a true entitlement mentality. Well, that entitlement mentality is why they are dead f'ing broke, just like those with the same mentality in the real world.

best post ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kid Dynomite]

i think it is just what the doctor ordered!!!

You want Mike Dechaine's spot then challenge Mike Dechaine and make a case for his slot!!!!

You want Corey Deuel's spot then Challenge Corey Deuel and make a case for his slot!!!!

You want John Morra's spot then challenge John Morra and make a case for his slot!!!

If YOU are on the sidelines then get your bank roll and backers and HOR$EFUK them for all the world to see.

Send a message to the decision makers. You have a public forum in AZB to broadcast your challenge and out anyone that ducks your challenge. You either get the money via the invite or you get the money via the challenge match but either way. Options exist to rightfully take your thrown as KING!!!

I did not mention SVB because NO ONE is trying to mess with him when the other 3 out of the 4 invited are so much weaker.

KD

 

[Poolplaya9]

The fact is that they are beginning to corner the market and no one who wants to play in their events is going to say anything that might cost them a chance to play in one

I don't think it is so much a matter of CSI "cornering the market" as it is everyone else is just abandoning the market. And they are abandoning the market in large part because of the players themselves.

It isn't that CSI has pushed everybody else out. It is that CSI is one of the last entities/people still willing to deal with the BS to try to make it work and who haven't thrown in the towel yet. But what they have now done, instead of throwing in the towel, is set up some caveats, and requirements (like pros that are respectful towards all people at an event, and to the event itself--I know right, what an unreasonable friggin request huh).

Here is the explanation from just one of the guys that did huge things for pool, and was in a position to go as big with helping pool as he wanted to, but who gave up on it, just like most of the others in his position have done as well. Although these are only his specific words, they speak for MANY and truthfully the vast MAJORITY in the industry who have already given up on pool or are currently on the verge of giving up on it (which between them is the vast majority of people who have the ability to make events happen).
http://www.azbilliards.com/news/stories/10780-ultimate-ten-ball-championships-bridges-burned/

 

[one stroke]

i think it is just what the doctor ordered!!!

You want Mike Dechaine's spot then challenge Mike Dechaine and make a case for his slot!!!!

You want Corey Deuel's spot then Challenge Corey Deuel and make a case for his slot!!!!

You want John Morra's spot then challenge John Morra and make a case for his slot!!!

If YOU are on the sidelines then get your bank roll and backers and HOR$EFUK them for all the world to see.

Send a message to the decision makers. You have a public forum in AZB to broadcast your challenge and out anyone that ducks your challenge. You either get the money via the invite or you get the money via the challenge match but either way. Options exist to rightfully take your thrown as KING!!!

I did not mention SVB because NO ONE is trying to mess with him when the other 3 out of the 4 invited are so much weaker.

KD

It's not a battle of who the best player is its a battle of who's the most popular in their
eyes ,,

1

 

[one stroke]

I don't think it is so much a matter of CSI "cornering the market" as it is everyone else is just abandoning the market. And they are abandoning the market in large part because of the players themselves.

It isn't that CSI has pushed everybody else out. It is that CSI is one of the last entities/people still willing to deal with the BS to try to make it work and who haven't thrown in the towel yet. But what they have now done, instead of throwing in the towel, is set up some caveats, and requirements (like pros that are respectful towards all people at an event, and to the event itself--I know right, what an unreasonable friggin request huh).

Here is the explanation from just one of the guys that did huge things for pool, and was in a position to go as big with helping pool as he wanted to, but who gave up on it, just like most of the others in his position have done as well. Although these are only his specific words, they speak for MANY and truthfully the vast MAJORITY in the industry who have already given up on pool or are currently on the verge of giving up on it (which between them is the vast majority of people who have the ability to make events happen).
http://www.azbilliards.com/news/stories/10780-ultimate-ten-ball-championships-bridges-burned/[/

I agree 100pct this is what we are left with
With out a true Tour and a united players union your basically left with what's going on now
Is what it is


1

 

[BRussell]

I don't think it is so much a matter of CSI "cornering the market" as it is everyone else is just abandoning the market. And they are abandoning the market in large part because of the players themselves.

I think you're blaming the players too much. I don't think people have pulled out of pro pool because the players have obnoxious personalities, it's because there aren't enough (paying) fans. Even the link you cite doesn't blame players' personalities or attitudes, it blames organizations - yes, including the players' organization, but that's not about their personal behavior. Focusing on how they have bad attitudes and that's the cause of the downturn in the pro market is backwards, IMO.

When I hear people talk about how pros must have "respect" without providing specifics, I interpret that as petty arguments. If a player is throwing a match for money, or cheating in some other way, that's one thing; but in the real world people have disagreements and voice their opinions, and I hope petty revenge against an insult doesn't motivate tournament invitation decisions. How entertaining the players are should be the primary factor.

IMO, the US pro pool market is down for a variety of factors, and money is scarce, which makes people mean and get into petty disagreements. That's all that's going on here.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I agree 100pct this is what we are left with
With out a true Tour and a united players union your basically left with what's going on now
Is what it is

The part that I think you are sometimes missing is that you see the players as just innocent bystanders negatively affected by the fact that professional pool is falling apart. The truth is that many of them are major contributors and causes to it falling apart, not just innocent bystanders affected by it. It's that whole cause and effect thing.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

It's not a battle of who the best player is its a battle of who's the most popular in their
eyes ,,

1

Mike Dechaine ain't popular!!!

Kd


Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[one stroke]

Mike Dechaine ain't popular!!!

Kd


Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

One or 2 more blow ups from him and you won't see him in CSI events


1

 

[one stroke]

The part that I think you are sometimes missing is that you see the players as just innocent bystanders negatively affected by the fact that professional pool is falling apart. The truth is that many of them are major contributors and causes to it falling apart, not just innocent bystanders affected by it. It's that whole cause and effect thing.

What I think your missing is it has little to do with the players themselves ,, has much more to do with the economy and popularity of the game itself which lags way behind other sports and games that are much more viewer friendly
I would argue that guys like Earl , Kieth , Mike D , Mike S are much more likely to attract viewers than a bunch of choir boys

1

 

[Poolplaya9]

It's not a battle of who the best player is its a battle of who's the most popular in their
eyes ,,

I think you're blaming the players too much. I don't think people have pulled out of pro pool because the players have obnoxious personalities, it's because there aren't enough (paying) fans.....IMO, the US pro pool market is down for a variety of factors, and money is scarce, which makes people mean and get into petty disagreements.

That is why I said the players are major contributors instead of sole cause. But truthfully even the other factors like lack of fans is partially caused by the pros as well. And to be clear, I am not insinuating that all pros have ever been a problem, only a portion--but it only take a few to ruin something, unless they are excluded.

And fact is, while it isn't conclusive evidence, pool did pretty well when the players were respectful, and "well behaved". In the decades since, the worse the players have gotten, the more pool has gone down hill until today when it is on its last legs and those legs are shaking and quivering and about to give out.

But regardless, in any other job on earth if you mouthed off to or disrespected the guy that pays you, or even mouthed off to or disrespected your coworkers, or cheated at your job, or any number of other behaviors, you would likely be shown the door so fast your head would spin. And if they didn't show you the door for some reason, you would at least face some major repercussions like some unpaid time off or something else major, and if you did it again then you would be shown the door permanently for sure. Why people think Mark or any other person putting on events should put up with these things, or that pool should be different from the rest of the world in allowing certain things that no other job or person on earth would accept, is beyond me.

 

[Celophanewrap]

In a invitational event, how does a player rate an invitation? I don't imagine it would be prudent to always invite the same players, the pro pool would really suffer. Is it who is friendly with the promoter, or do you have to know someone? How are invitations doled out?

 

[BRussell]

Poolplaya9 look at some of those Mosconi-Fats matches posted recently in another thread. Fats is an obnoxious blowhard in the extreme. But look at the fans as they watch - they absolutely adore him. They put hours of him on ABC's Wide World of Sports with Howard Cosell announcing. And make no mistake it was to see Fats not Mosconi. Part of the entertainment of it was watching Fats get under the stodgy Mosconi's skin.

The fact is, fans like athletes with personalities, even the ones with bad personalities like Earl. It's why pro wrestling always has good guys and bad guys. And it's why Matchroom wanted Earl back in the Mosconi last year.

In the end, all sports are entertainment. And what worries me is that, because of petty disagreements, the big pool tournaments are going to exclude the most entertaining players we have.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Poolplaya9 look at some of those Mosconi-Fats matches posted recently in another thread. Fats is an obnoxious blowhard in the extreme. But look at the fans as they watch - they absolutely adore him. They put hours of him on ABC's Wide World of Sports with Howard Cosell announcing. And make no mistake it was to see Fats not Mosconi. Part of the entertainment of it was watching Fats get under the stodgy Mosconi's skin.

There is a difference between banter that is intended to entertain, verses that which is intended to be malicious. Would you agree that Fats for example was trying to entertain above all else? Would you agree that Rodney as an example in what he say to/about Mark and CSI was being malicious as opposed to trying to be entertaining? Do you think all of what Earl does is intended to entertain, or is it intended to disrespect?

I agree that entertainers are good for pool or any sport. Alex is a perfect example. Fats is even a pretty good example. But there is a huge difference between entertaining verses disrespecting or trying to be malicious.