A different perspective on the Mosconi Cup

[JAM]

This event appeared on Sky Tv. We were fortunate enough to catch the stream, but this was televised throughout Europe and beyond. Between games there were commercial breaks. They are the ones paying the players and Matchroom. They pay the bills. Has anyone considered how they feel about the swearing on live TV? How about Rodney asking England's favorite pool player to fight in the parking lot? Or Earl berating Karl for the duration of their match? How many viewers called into Sky Network to lodge complaints for the profanity? It's actually a crime there to use profanity in public (although hardly ever prosecuted). I'm sure there were no shortage of complaints about the "barbaric, uncouth and unrefined" Americans. I heard that for the first time ever that Barry Hearn was actually embarrassed by the Americans behavior.

What happens between now and December 2014 will be very telling.

Because of the deterioration of American professional pool, to include no support from the Billiard Congress of America, and now the growing dislike of many of the American pro players today, it will be interesting, number one, to see how the Mosconi Cup selection process is for 2014 and, number two, whether or not they they completely change the format to Team SOMETHING ELSE vs. Team Europe. :frown:

Inducting Barry Hearn into the BCA's Hall of Fame the same week as the 2013 Mosconi Cup, at least he had something to be happy about, aside from the embarrassment of the Americans. :smile:

FWIW, it is true that when C.J. Wiley was Team Captain, there were none of these shenanigans.. One school of thought is that there was no unison given to this year's Team USA, even with Buddy and Johnny present as co-captains. To me, this was the biggest problem, aside from the poor behavior on live TV. If there had been more direction given BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER, I believe that Team USA would have performed better not only on the table but may have not behaved so poorly between shots.

Again, this year's Team USA on the so-called "Legends" Mosconi Cup, celebrating the 20th anniversary, seemed more like a social event for the Americans than a competition. It is easy for me to do Monday morning quarterbacking, I guess, but if there had been a full-time team captain and if the players bonded together and not each going their own way, there just might have been a different outcome. There may have not been any F bombs because this topic would have been addressed the first time it happened if a team captain was doing their job. Maybe Earl should have had a cornerman team captain sitting directly behind him when he went on tilt, though Shane did seem to have a calming effect on him.

It's over now and has gone down in the history books as one of the worst beat-downs in the history of this event, though I am curious about when Earl was team captain and USA had Europe 12 to 1.

I'm trying to find more info about this one, but I don't see where Earl was the captain. This article has a few mistakes in it, like Dennis Hatch being from Michigan: Mosconi Cup Wiki Article.

Apparently, it happened because this year's MVP Niels Feijen said this: Feijen has seen some ups and downs since he made his debut 12 years ago; “My worst memory was that 1-12 defeat in 2001. It was my first time in the Mosconi Cup and it was like we didn't even show up! Mika and me won the first match and then we lost 12 in a row. It was like a bad dream, three days in a row.


I can't find one video of it on YouTube or anywhere else.

Well, as the stench of this year's Mosconi Cup washes away, I can only hope that those involved will reflect on what has been said by the viewing public and make a change. There's no doubt that Team USA wanted to win, but they sure as heck went about it the wrong way this year. Instead of "All for one and one for all," as exhibited by Team Europe, Team USA was every man for himself.

Here is the 2001 Mosconi Cup poster. Just thought I'd throw it in the thread to reveal that it is possible for USA to triumph with a 12-1 victory.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

That poster illustrates two things about pro pool - 1. low turnover of players and 2. longevity.

Amazing how many players are still involved 13 years later.

 

[ChopStick]

The teams body language conveyed contempt, entitlement and disinterest. The vulgar language was even worse. That the commentators had to, on multiple occasions, apologize to the viewers for this behavior, is incomprehensible. Then of course, there was Earl. He personally attacked his opponents, verbally, during multiple matches. He cheated, by intentionally sharking the other players.

This whole event just shined a light directly on how rotten the culture of pro pool is in the US at the moment.

It's not just pro pool. It's all pool. Go down to the local room and win a few games. You will receive the same treatment. Everyone on here has experienced this personally. When the local jackass sees the pros doing it, it just reinforces this behavior. In an attempt to justify this, it has been said that people want to see this kind of drama. No, they don't. It reminds them of when it happened to them and why they are not down at the pool room now.

There is absolutely no excuse for disrespecting your opponent. It is, in fact, stupid. Without them, you have no game.

 

[markgw]

What happens between now and December 2014 will be very telling.

Because of the deterioration of American professional pool, to include no support from the Billiard Congress of America, and now the growing dislike of many of the American pro players today, it will be interesting, number one, to see how the Mosconi Cup selection process is for 2014 and, number two, whether or not they they completely change the format to Team SOMETHING ELSE vs. Team Europe. :frown:

Inducting Barry Hearn into the BCA's Hall of Fame the same week as the 2013 Mosconi Cup, at least he had something to be happy about, aside from the embarrassment of the Americans. :smile:

FWIW, it is true that when C.J. Wiley was Team Captain, there were none of these shenanigans.. One school of thought is that there was no unison given to this year's Team USA, even with Buddy and Johnny present as co-captains. To me, this was the biggest problem, aside from the poor behavior on live TV. If there had been more direction given BEFORE, DURING, and AFTER, I believe that Team USA would have performed better not only on the table but may have not behaved so poorly between shots.

Again, this year's Team USA on the so-called "Legends" Mosconi Cup, celebrating the 20th anniversary, seemed more like a social event for the Americans than a competition. It is easy for me to do Monday morning quarterbacking, I guess, but if there had been a full-time team captain and if the players bonded together and not each going their own way, there just might have been a different outcome. There may have not been any F bombs because this topic would have been addressed the first time it happened if a team captain was doing their job. Maybe Earl should have had a cornerman team captain sitting directly behind him when he went on tilt, though Shane did seem to have a calming effect on him.

It's over now and has gone down in the history books as one of the worst beat-downs in the history of this event, though I am curious about when Earl was team captain and USA had Europe 12 to 1.

I'm trying to find more info about this one, but I don't see where Earl was the captain. This article has a few mistakes in it, like Dennis Hatch being from Michigan: Mosconi Cup Wiki Article.

Apparently, it happened because this year's MVP Niels Feijen said this: Feijen has seen some ups and downs since he made his debut 12 years ago; “My worst memory was that 1-12 defeat in 2001. It was my first time in the Mosconi Cup and it was like we didn't even show up! Mika and me won the first match and then we lost 12 in a row. It was like a bad dream, three days in a row.


I can't find one video of it on YouTube or anywhere else.

Well, as the stench of this year's Mosconi Cup washes away, I can only hope that those involved will reflect on what has been said by the viewing public and make a change. There's no doubt that Team USA wanted to win, but they sure as heck went about it the wrong way this year. Instead of "All for one and one for all," as exhibited by Team Europe, Team USA was every man for himself.

Here is the 2001 Mosconi Cup poster. Just thought I'd throw it in the thread to reveal that it is possible for USA to triumph with a 12-1 victory.

If Europe wins the next two Mosconi Cups they will be tied with us with the overall tournament record 11-11.....

 

[EJmagnum186]

I find this entire thread interesting and very well reflective of the correlation of the decline of pool which IMHO a difference of opinion and a lack of a unified direction and then it was again mirrored by the results of the MC. In the end the better TEAM won and there is no shame in that at all....that is why we keep score and it is a team format not an individual format.

JAM, I don't know you but all I can deduct about you from your various posts is that you are smart, loyal and passionate which I think often can be misconstrued by those who might be slightly lacking in those areas but I believe that to truly make change it starts with personal accountability of which I don't think anyone in question (3) has taken in regards to their actions (not performance). I have to disagree with you about how upsetting it might be for their loved ones and piling on....quite simply they brought it upon themselves by their choices not by their circumstances. We are all free willed.....with that being said the only person I would cut some slack to is actually Earl.

Earls trials and tribulations are very well documented and he is as polarizing as a person can be but he is there for exactly what he brings to the table and the promoters got exactly just what they wanted.....world class talent with a high probability of side show circus. I give him a pass because he has a VERY REAL medical condition that effects his daily life in a manner many can not possibly understand fully....if he had (God forbid) cancer and was going through treatments would we pile on him if he looked lethargic at the table....NO...that is why I cut him a little slack and also why I respect JCIN and his position to not have him on any future events....you can't have it both ways with Earl and you can not be sure that his antics would not reflect poorly on one's "brand". Dennis and Rodney are professionals but their actions and choices were poor and not reflective of a professional and it reflected as such and they need to take the heat for that no matter how many posts, and weeks and beating a dead horse it may be.

Now as far as going forward and thinking to revive the sport. I love the MC format...could that format be the framework for a "league" of teams a'la BB and use that to help in choosing members for the next MC team? You would have a good idea of who functions well in the team environment and possible pairings....just a thought.

 

[JoeyA]

Well Joey.if you recall - we didn't take it on ourselves to create this document. You enlisted my help and told me that the project was unofficially commissioned by one the owners of AZ.
I was surprised that it was taken down because at the time it was still very relevant.
With a few minor updates it would be even more relevant today.

This CODE OF CONDUCT wasn't just a few ideas cobbled together over a weekend. You put a lot of work into it and I know that I certainly did.
Now it languishes on my Hard Drive - forgotten!

Now to add insult to insult I get verbally abused when I am making constructive suggestions
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=343184&page=4
Such is life.

Doug,
I will always appreciate our time together working on this project. I could not have done it without you. You were a pleasure to work with. I wanted a European perspective when creating the CODE OF CONDUCT and I could not have found a better one, anywhere.

There are still little, small-minded people whining about how the CODE OF CONDUCT doesn't belong on this site and how it belongs on some governing body if they approve it. :lol: It is exactly that type of whining and skewed thinking that corrupts this forum and this site. The owners of this forum, whom I respect for all that they have done, all that they have created and all that they continue to do for pool but on this point, they have sadly dropped the ball.

I accept that the CODE OF CONDUCT has been removed by the owners of this site and that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the ignorance of a few posters who champion the idea that the CODE OF CONDUCT has no place on this forum.

The apathy and silence from the rest of the forum is a symptom of what's wrong with pool in general. When the majority of AZB posters and the owners of this site don't recognize the need for a sign post such as the CODE OF CONDUCT, there really isn't much hope for change or pool. The fact that the majority of AZBers didn't voice their opinions about the removal of the CODE OF CONDUCT speaks volumes.

Do I believe that the CODE OF CONDUCT is the savior of pool or that it is going to totally transform the behavior of those on this forum as well as that of the professional players? Of course not. That would be ludicrous.

Sorry to hear about you being verbally abused. It is what the site has become known for, unfortunately.
JoeyA

 

[Maniac]

Earls trials and tribulations are very well documented and he is as polarizing as a person can be but he is there for exactly what he brings to the table and the promoters got exactly just what they wanted.....world class talent with a high probability of side show circus. I give him a pass because he has a VERY REAL medical condition that effects his daily life in a manner many can not possibly understand fully.....

Many people give him a pass.....I am not one of them.

Pool, as I was taught growing up, is a sport of gentlemanly etiquette. It falls in the same class, etiquette-wise, as golf, bowling, et al. Non-sporting games ( a category that MANY feel pool is a part of) such as chess or darts also maintain a certain standard of sportsmanship. What if golfers and bowlers had one of their opponents standing/sitting there trash talking them while they were about to play a shot? How acceptable would that be???

Football, basketball, and other contact sports are where it is found acceptable to allow "trash talk". Pool is, and should be, nothing like one of these sports.

Earl disrespects the game...it's fans...and his opponents. Medical condition? Okay...then he needs meds...and if they affect his playing ability...then tough shit for Earl...that's HIS problem. Don't make HIS problem everybody else's problem.

Maniac (will hug no one's nuts)

 

[CJ Wiley]

Earl Strickland if a "Diamond in the Rough" - CLICK LINK

CJ, I was really pulling for Earl, I think he did play the best of the US team. But you really have to wonder how things could have been if he could have kept on an even keel.
When he was announced for team USA I just assumed there would be someone sitting right behind him "talking him down", or in general just supporting Earl when he needed it. Other than one brief moment from Buddy it looked like Earl was left out to dry. If you were there, captain or not, what would you have done to get the best out of Earl.

Earl and I have a mutual respect. I have played a great deal of golf, tennis and of course competitive pool with Earl over the years. I believe Earl would state himself that I'm one of the few pool players that he will listen to, brainstorm with and take advice from.

Earl Strickland is like a diamond in the rough for pool, but no one seems to understand that there's a technique to making him shine......and it's simply not being done at this time.

Here's an example of when it was being done - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vwEGQeHa5E

 

[EJmagnum186]

Maniac....I am no nut hugger and I agree 100% with you about the gentlemen's ettitiquite and Earl's actions....I guess I just have a little better understanding of true mental illness, which by the way does not excuse him from his behavior. I just see it more like there is something biologically wrong with the dude instead of the guy is just an A-hole of the highest order and gets his rocks off acting that way. The reason this act has gone on so long is because unlike other sports there is no one/ no board to hold him accountable....and if we are being really honest, now that he is a lion in his later years and there are new more relevant talents people don't have to kiss his ass anymore and are taking shots at him now....the act hasn't changed any but he doesn't have as long a leash anymore because he isn't #1. Pass was probably the wrong word..I guess I would say I have some compassion for the man in spite of his antics.

 

[NYC cue dude]

Doug,
I will always appreciate our time together working on this project. I could not have done it without you. You were a pleasure to work with. I wanted a European perspective when creating the CODE OF CONDUCT and I could not have found a better one, anywhere.

There are still little, small-minded people whining about how the CODE OF CONDUCT doesn't belong on this site and how it belongs on some governing body if they approve it. :lol: It is exactly that type of whining and skewed thinking that corrupts this forum and this site. The owners of this forum, whom I respect for all that they have done, all that they have created and all that they continue to do for pool but on this point, they have sadly dropped the ball.

I accept that the CODE OF CONDUCT has been removed by the owners of this site and that doesn't bother me nearly as much as the ignorance of a few posters who champion the idea that the CODE OF CONDUCT has no place on this forum.

The apathy and silence from the rest of the forum is a symptom of what's wrong with pool in general. When the majority of AZB posters and the owners of this site don't recognize the need for a sign post such as the CODE OF CONDUCT, there really isn't much hope for change or pool. The fact that the majority of AZBers didn't voice their opinions about the removal of the CODE OF CONDUCT speaks volumes.

Do I believe that the CODE OF CONDUCT is the savior of pool or that it is going to totally transform the behavior of those on this forum as well as that of the professional players? Of course not. That would be ludicrous.

Sorry to hear about you being verbally abused. It is what the site has become known for, unfortunately.
JoeyA

Joey, I respect your long time contributions to the game of pool. I'd like it if you would please release the names of the people, publically, who lobbied for the CODE OF CONDUCT to be removed.

Of course, just because a non binding set of regulations is published doesn't mean that players are compelled to endorse them, let alone adhere to them. But in light of the recent events outlined by Mr Badi Nazhat, Mark Griffin and now the the Mosconi Cup, it would be instructive to learn, who specifically, is part of pools very serious problem, rather than the solution.

Thank you
RG

 

[Nostroke]

Joey, I respect your long time contributions to the game of pool. I'd like it if you would please release the names of the people, publically, who lobbied for the CODE OF CONDUCT to be removed.

Of course, just because a non binding set of regulations is published doesn't mean that players are compelled to endorse them, let alone adhere to them. But in light of the recent events outlined by Mr Badi Nazhat, Mark Griffin and now the the Mosconi Cup, it would be instructive to learn, who specifically, is part of pools very serious problem, rather than the solution.

Thank you
RG

I lobbied for it to be removed as a sticky.

 

[NYC cue dude]

I lobbied for it to be removed as a sticky.

Can I ask you why?

 

[JAM]

Doug,
I will always appreciate our time together working on this project...Sorry to hear about you being verbally abused. It is what the site has become known for, unfortunately.
JoeyA

Who verbally abused Doug? The nerve! :angry::angry::angry:

 

[pro9dg]

Randy

I think that even after all this time Joey is feeling a bit bruised considering the amount of work that went into the document
There was no clamour to remove it. One poster (who is an old friend of mine from te Cardiff Days and a New Yorker like yourself) complained about the large number of stickeys on thr site and so they tipped the bathwater out and our baby (THE CODE OF CONDUCT) went with it.

 

[Redneck Jim]

Code Of Conduct - Alternate Location ?

.........snip
I accept that the CODE OF CONDUCT has been removed by the owners of this site ..........snip

Even though the Code Of Conduct is no longer on this forum, is there anywhere else a person could read it ?
.
.

 

[JAM]

Even though the Code Of Conduct is no longer on this forum, is there anywhere else a person could read it ?
.
.

Somebody could post it to Photobucket and then provide a link to it.

 

[pro9dg]

Who verbally abused Doug? The nerve! :angry::angry::angry:

Jen
The link is in Joey's post #166 if you want to read it. It doesn'i offend me it just makes me laugh

 

[JAM]

Jen
The link is in Joey's post #166 if you want to read it. It doesn'i offend me it just makes me laugh

They better not mess with you -- EVER! You're one of the good guys in the pool world. :lovies:

 

[Maniac]

Pass was probably the wrong word..I guess I would say I have some compassion for the man in spite of his antics.

Okay...that changes everything.

Compassion is a good thing...a quality all human beings should have. FTR...I too have compassion for Earl...I honestly feel sorry about his medical condition.

There are just certain people here on AZB that completely give him a pass (medical condition or not) simply because of his talents. I do not understand this.

We are good! Shoot 'em well, my friend!!!

Maniac

 

[EJmagnum186]

Okay...that changes everything.

Compassion is a good thing...a quality all human beings should have. FTR...I too have compassion for Earl...I honestly feel sorry about his medical condition.

There are just certain people here on AZB that completely give him a pass (medical condition or not) simply because of his talents. I do not understand this.

We are good! Shoot 'em well, my friend!!!

Maniac

:wink: Yep all good.