a good stroke

Solartje

the Brunswick BUG bit me
Silver Member
I would like to gather some opinions on what defines a good stroke.

There are several posts about: X has the nicest stroke, budy hall strokes the ball so perfectly. What exactly defines this?


I'll start with what I think are the top 5 characteristics that defines it, but im only a B player, and i'm looking for more things to look at when analysing a good stroke.

1/ consistency : In my opinion the most important thing. No matter how crooked your arm is, how bad your chicken wing is, if u can play each shot, at each speed with the exact same technique, you will make balls.

2/ I have underestimated the power of folow true for years. I can't find a real scientific explenation why it is so important, but it just is. Just to be sure, i personally try to over-folow true. almost till the bridge is close to the joint. it just helps to learn the muscles to folow true. It feels like an eraser for imperfections. Its hard to do a bad stroke if you folow true.

3/ slow acceleration ieven after the impact, rather then fast initial accelration and constant speed till and after impact. Also here i can't really explain why. I always thought as long as the speed is the same at impact the ball will react the same way, but it just isn't like that. It feels like the contact with the cb and the tip is longer when accelerating and that it has a positive influence.

4/ elbow drop on the folow true. I try to never have my elbow dropped, but since ive been dropping it on folow trues, i get double the power then if i wouldnt. Only explenation is that by lowering the elbow the tip goes up, so u put more spin on the cb, but when dropping the elbow it looks like the cb just continues to folow true alot faster after impact. The short time where the cb stats in place before traveling forward again is reduced with elbow dropping. The stroke on folow true with elbow drop seems to give more room for the griphand to smoothly move forward.

5/ short backstroke movement. People who use long bridge and who draw there backarm WAY behing there back, seem to have more trouble with long shots. A shorter stroke seems to give better results.
 
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A good stroke is one that is consistent, repeatable, allows your arm to come to a natural finish, and moves the cue stick FORWARD IN A STRAIGHT LINE.

Steve
 
Solartje said:
I would like to gather some opinions on what defines a good stroke.

There are several posts about: X has the nicest stroke, budy hall strokes the ball so perfectly. What exactly defines this?


I'll start with what I think are the top 5 characteristics that defines it, but im only a B player, and i'm looking for more things to look at when analysing a good stroke.

1/ consistency : In my opinion the most important thing. No matter how crooked your arm is, how bad your chicken wing is, if u can play each shot, at each speed with the exact same technique, you will make balls.

Yes, although this is a little like saying a good stroke is one that makes balls. All your following points are in service of this one.

2/ I have underestimated the power of folow true for years. I can't find a real scientific explenation why it is so important, but it just is. Just to be sure, i personally try to over-folow true. almost till the bridge is close to the joint. it just helps to learn the muscles to folow true. It feels like an eraser for imperfections. Its hard to do a bad stroke if you folow true.

I think the scientific explanation is the one you give here: following through makes it harder to do anything weird like jabbing, swooping, steering, etc.

3/ slow acceleration ieven after the impact, rather then fast initial accelration and constant speed till and after impact. Also here i can't really explain why. I always thought as long as the speed is the same at impact the ball will react the same way, but it just isn't like that.

I think it is like that.

It feels like the contact with the cb and the tip is longer when accelerating and that it has a positive influence.

"Feels like" is the key phrase here. I think slow acceleration has the same kind of effect as following through. It helps to control your stroke, but it doesn't add anything special to it.

4/ elbow drop on the folow true. I try to never have my elbow dropped, but since ive been dropping it on folow trues, i get double the power then if i wouldnt. Only explenation is that by lowering the elbow the tip goes up, so u put more spin on the cb, but when dropping the elbow it looks like the cb just continues to folow true alot faster after impact. The short time where the cb stats in place before traveling forward again is reduced with elbow dropping. The stroke on folow true with elbow drop seems to give more room for the griphand to smoothly move forward.

I disagree with this one. I don't think dropping the elbow does anything for your stroke, except maybe compensate for another stroke problem that you should instead fix directly. If you're not getting the power or CB action you think you should, it's probably an accuracy problem (you're not hitting the CB exactly where you want to).

5/ short backstroke movement. People who use long bridge and who draw there backarm WAY behing there back, seem to have more trouble with long shots. A shorter stroke seems to give better results.

I agree with this for most players, but many top players have longer bridges and backswings.

pj
chgo
 
Solartje said:
the power of folow true for years.

What is this amazing all powerful "folow true" you speak of? is it similar to the american version of "follow through" only exclusive to europe? Can I get you to ship me a case of this stuff? :-)
 
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You know what "they" say: " the more the follow through, the better the stroke"! I need a case also........SPF=randyg
 
I sometimes wonder too what people mean by a "good stroke"

Obviously it means the stroke must be able to function well.

But when people say Buddy Hall has a good stroke, do they mean to say it as in aesthetically speaking good stroke and it looks so effortless? Or is it just solely on the basis of what he is able to do on the table?

Or is it one of those if you have a good looking stroke, you should do good things on the table too.

Out of all the pros, I like Alex' style and if there's anyone I would emulate, it would be him.
 
Very true...and Solartje's #2, 3, 4 & 5 comments have absolutely nothing to do with making that happen.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

pooltchr said:
A good stroke is one that is consistent, repeatable, allows your arm to come to a natural finish, and moves the cue stick FORWARD IN A STRAIGHT LINE.

Steve
 
I was told a very long time ago that the definition of a pool stroke was

"The art of accurately and consistantly throwing the cue forward."
 
Solartje said:
...2/ I have underestimated the power of folow true for years. I can't find a real scientific explenation why it is so important, but it just is. Just to be sure, i personally try to over-folow true. almost till the bridge is close to the joint. it just helps to learn the muscles to folow true. It feels like an eraser for imperfections. Its hard to do a bad stroke if you folow true.

3/ slow acceleration ieven after the impact, rather then fast initial accelration and constant speed till and after impact. Also here i can't really explain why. I always thought as long as the speed is the same at impact the ball will react the same way, but it just isn't like that. It feels like the contact with the cb and the tip is longer when accelerating and that it has a positive influence.
An explanation has been given many times, but few understand it. It likely has nothing to do with increased contact time.

Solartje said:
4/ elbow drop on the folow true. I try to never have my elbow dropped, but since ive been dropping it on folow trues, i get double the power then if i wouldnt. Only explenation is that by lowering the elbow the tip goes up, so u put more spin on the cb, but when dropping the elbow it looks like the cb just continues to folow true alot faster after impact.
The cue is moving faster before impact. It may not 'feel' like it is, but it is.

Solartje said:
The short time where the cb stats in place before traveling forward again is reduced with elbow dropping.
Can't happen.

Jim
 
Slow acceleration

Solartje said:
3/ slow acceleration ieven after the impact, rather then fast initial accelration and constant speed till and after impact. Also here i can't really explain why. I always thought as long as the speed is the same at impact the ball will react the same way, but it just isn't like that. It feels like the contact with the cb and the tip is longer when accelerating and that it has a positive influence.

I am with you on this one. I have found that this really helps my stroke and have also noticed it as a characteristic of good looking strokes in others.

I am not sure why it should be the case, but I was struck by a sentence in a 2002 paper by by Mark Williams and others on Vickers' 'Quiet Eye' idea. In the context of free-throws in basketball, the authors describe a preparatory phase, "that is considered essential for programming parameters of the movement". [In pool, this is seen in the player's pre-shot routine, a topic discussed in a recent thread concerning the importance of visualising the shot before getting down.]

The paper then goes on: "As the movement is initiated, players need relatively slow movements to maintain fixation on the target and complete the final structuring of the aiming commands". [my italics]

Reading this, I did wonder whether the benefit of a 'slow acceleration' in the pool stroke is due to the same thing.

Solartje said:
5/ short backstroke movement. People who use long bridge and who draw there backarm WAY behing there back, seem to have more trouble with long shots. A shorter stroke seems to give better results.

I agree with PJ on this one. When I first started playing, I used to make notes to remind me what I was doing wrong. One note that kept appearing over and over again was "shorten backswing". Very frustrating.:(

However when my stroke improved, I found that this was no longer necessary.:)

Perhaps shortening your backswing compensates for some other error?

Edit:
The paper I was referring to is here (thanks to David Beck for this) http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=112649&page=4
The thread is here (see in particular pdcue's post): http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=118472&page=3
 
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If anyone want to know what a good stroke is, or better yet how it looks, watch and emulate Alex Pagulayan. :thumbup:
 
The pool stroke has so few moving parts, it's hard to believe any top player couldn't emulate another player's so called "good stroke."

Is it possible to have a "Buddy Hall-like stroke" and still miss the shot because your aim is off? I think so. I can imitate most of the pros' strokes and I still suck.

Yukon Ed
 
I happened to see the advertisement for that stroke trainer device here on AZ, but I don't see it anymore.

Actually, I'd love to play with that thing for a while although the price tag IMO was about 100 bucks too much for my wallet. I bet that thing would tell a few tales about how straight a stroke we have.
 
randyg said:
You know what "they" say: " the more the follow through, the better the stroke"! I need a case also........SPF=randyg

:p

Ah well , i wouldnt be silly solly if i wouldnt type such errors :d
At least your taking it well :).


@ all.
So according to most, its only a folow true that makes up a good stroke?
There must be more then that, right?

Im sure almost every pro follows trough, why do many consider one pro stroke with follow better then the other pro stroke with follow?

I just don't know what to look at to understand why one is better. Please teach me , if my #2 ,3 ,4 and 5 are not it.
 
Scott Lee said:
Very true...and Solartje's #2, 3, 4 & 5 comments have absolutely nothing to do with making that happen.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott,

could you explain and teach me in detail what what does make it happen?
I can't emulate a stroke if i dont know what to look at.

Maybe with the help of a video of a good stroke and your analyse?
 
If you aren't able to travel to the US for pool school, I would highly recommend you get Scott and Randy's first DVD. You can get a pretty good idea of what makes a good stroke just by watching and listening.
Steve
 
solartje...Steve/pooltcher is dead on here. You need to understand what a 'personal shooting template' is, and how to calculate yours. Once you understand that concept, and practice it until you do it without thinking, there is no end to how perfect a stroke YOU can develop for YOU!

You should be able to find it here: www.amazon.co.uk/Play-Better-Pool-Mastering-Basics/dp/B00186ZSS4, but I'll sell it to you a lot cheaper, and ship it to you. PM me for details.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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Buddy Hall's Stroke

Being a pupil of Buddy Hall, I have a couple of things you might be interested in knowing.

The pre-shot routine: Look at where you want to go and visualize that in your mind. Step into the shot with your right side aligned and keeping your eye on the contact point on the object ball. When you pull the trigger, use the lower part of your arm from the elbow down, not just the wrist, or making a jerking motion. Stroke the entire shot with the final destination of the cueball in mind as opposed to just guessing what the proper amount of force would be.

With the stroke, your entire right hand and four fingers should stay gripped on the cue. As you come through the cb, make sure you pull straight back and straight through with the cue tip. :thumbup:

Anyways, this is the Rifleman's method. I think over anyone else in the world, he has technically the most sound and consistently dependable stroke of anyone. Have fun and really try to picture what I described. It should be as simple as simple gets. The 'simpler the better.'
 
deadgearplyr said:
Being a pupil of Buddy Hall, I have a couple of things you might be interested in knowing.

The pre-shot routine: Look at where you want to go and visualize that in your mind. Step into the shot with your right side aligned

Hi, Could you explain this further? Those are nice tips from you thanks :)
 
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