A Great Synopsis Of The Ivory Ban Re: Pool Cues

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There has been a lot written about various states enacting laws banning ivory sales and
recently, the Federal Government also adopted a more strict regulatory posture as well.

My views on this CA Ivory Ban are well known and I always remain on the prowl for any
articles or news about the legal outlook since I am strongly opposed to the CA Ivory Ban.

Appearing below is a short statement that appears on Recollection Cues & IMO, offers an
excellent summary on ivory & its future in cue-building. http://www.recollectioncues.com/home.html.

I also share the view that ivory cues will be increasing in value and so if you happen to
own any cues built using ivory, you may want to take special care of those cues....I am.




Matt B.





Editorial and News
Regarding New Ivory Regulations

New regulations have been issued by the Department of Fish & Wildlife which set new restrictions on the sale of items containing ivory. These restrictions go into effect July 7, 2016. With regard to cue sales, they have minimal effect. They are primarily aimed at two things: 1) restricting the sale of raw ivory or objects which are virtually all ivory, such as tusks, large scrimshawed pieces, etc., and 2) preventing new items from being constructing using ivory by virtue of limiting interstate sales.

Any cue made prior to July 7 from legally imported ivory (ALL of the ones featured on this website!) can still be sold from state to state, unless one of the particular states has its own restrictions. Any cue made from legal ivory (pre-ban or legally imported under SITES agreement regulating import), that contains less than 50% of its weight in ivory, has less than 50% of its value in ivory, and is an integral part of the cue (not easily removable), meets what is called the "De Minimis" exemption, and can still be legally sold and transported, now and on into the future. This means virtually any cue ever made.

This is good news for collectors, because there has been a good deal of speculation as to what the new regulations might do or say. A great many of us involved in cues have send a lot of letters and email to legislators and DFW, contributed money, and even testified to legislators and directly to DWF, in an effort to help them understand that building cues using ivory brought into this country a hundred years ago, or that is coming into the country under the existing legal agreements which, in effect, are SAVING elephants, does no harm. We have worked hard in conjunction with scrimshanders, antique dealers, gun and knife collectors, and musical instrument owners and makers. Even the NRA got into the fight. For the most part, we have been successful. However, in the end, the cuemakers themselves are the ones most effected within the cue industry.

As of July 7, cuemakers will no longer be allowed to make cues with ivory and sell them outside their own state. This is a big change, and most of the cuemakers I have talked to will cease building cues with ivory. Many are stopping immediately. How this effects the value of existing ivory cues is yet to be determined, and at this point, a matter of opinion. I believe the value of ivory cues will go up. If they are no longer being made, the demand will quickly exceed the supply. That's good for collectors and players who already own these cues. If you own a cue with ivory, I think you can expect it will increase in value as this plays out. Recollection Cues is in the process of re-assessing the prices of all cues in our inventory, and may soon be making adjustments resulting in price increases.

All in all, I think this is a "plus" for the cue industry. Now that the new regs have been published, the uncertainty that has surrounded this issue for several years has been removed. And, existing cues containing ivory will go up in value. As to future new cues, cuemakers are already beginning to use new and different materials and techniques to insure that future cues will be as beautiful as ever. I think we can look forward to a thriving future for the cue industry.

ATENTION: Recollection Cues does NOT sell cues with ivory outside of the United States and has always strived to stay within the laws governing exportation of ivory products.
All ivory used in cues has been legally obtained by reputable cuemakers under current ivory importation agreements (SITE), or has been in this country long before current regulations
were established (also legal). All cues listed on this site for sale meet the regulations established by the Department of Fish & Wildlife and its "De Minimis" exception.
 
There has been a lot written about various states enacting laws banning ivory sales and
recently, the Federal Government also adopted a more strict regulatory posture as well.

My views on this CA Ivory Ban are well known and I always remain on the prowl for any
articles or news about the legal outlook since I am strongly opposed to the CA Ivory Ban.

Appearing below is a short statement that appears on Recollection Cues & IMO, offers an
excellent summary on ivory & its future in cue-building. http://www.recollectioncues.com/home.html.

I also share the view that ivory cues will be increasing in value and so if you happen to
own any cues built using ivory, you may want to take special care of those cues....I am.




Matt B.





Editorial and News
Regarding New Ivory Regulations

New regulations have been issued by the Department of Fish & Wildlife which set new restrictions on the sale of items containing ivory. These restrictions go into effect July 7, 2016. With regard to cue sales, they have minimal effect. They are primarily aimed at two things: 1) restricting the sale of raw ivory or objects which are virtually all ivory, such as tusks, large scrimshawed pieces, etc., and 2) preventing new items from being constructing using ivory by virtue of limiting interstate sales.

Any cue made prior to July 7 from legally imported ivory (ALL of the ones featured on this website!) can still be sold from state to state, unless one of the particular states has its own restrictions. Any cue made from legal ivory (pre-ban or legally imported under SITES agreement regulating import), that contains less than 50% of its weight in ivory, has less than 50% of its value in ivory, and is an integral part of the cue (not easily removable), meets what is called the "De Minimis" exemption, and can still be legally sold and transported, now and on into the future. This means virtually any cue ever made.

This is good news for collectors, because there has been a good deal of speculation as to what the new regulations might do or say. A great many of us involved in cues have send a lot of letters and email to legislators and DFW, contributed money, and even testified to legislators and directly to DWF, in an effort to help them understand that building cues using ivory brought into this country a hundred years ago, or that is coming into the country under the existing legal agreements which, in effect, are SAVING elephants, does no harm. We have worked hard in conjunction with scrimshanders, antique dealers, gun and knife collectors, and musical instrument owners and makers. Even the NRA got into the fight. For the most part, we have been successful. However, in the end, the cuemakers themselves are the ones most effected within the cue industry.

As of July 7, cuemakers will no longer be allowed to make cues with ivory and sell them outside their own state. This is a big change, and most of the cuemakers I have talked to will cease building cues with ivory. Many are stopping immediately. How this effects the value of existing ivory cues is yet to be determined, and at this point, a matter of opinion. I believe the value of ivory cues will go up. If they are no longer being made, the demand will quickly exceed the supply. That's good for collectors and players who already own these cues. If you own a cue with ivory, I think you can expect it will increase in value as this plays out. Recollection Cues is in the process of re-assessing the prices of all cues in our inventory, and may soon be making adjustments resulting in price increases.

All in all, I think this is a "plus" for the cue industry. Now that the new regs have been published, the uncertainty that has surrounded this issue for several years has been removed. And, existing cues containing ivory will go up in value. As to future new cues, cuemakers are already beginning to use new and different materials and techniques to insure that future cues will be as beautiful as ever. I think we can look forward to a thriving future for the cue industry.

ATENTION: Recollection Cues does NOT sell cues with ivory outside of the United States and has always strived to stay within the laws governing exportation of ivory products.
All ivory used in cues has been legally obtained by reputable cuemakers under current ivory importation agreements (SITE), or has been in this country long before current regulations
were established (also legal). All cues listed on this site for sale meet the regulations established by the Department of Fish & Wildlife and its "De Minimis" exception.

I disagree. Cues with ivory in them will NOT increase in value. I'm basing this on the current sentiment in the population. Much like ashtrays made of gorillas hands, or stuffed Eskimos, cues with Ivory in them will be looked upon as t grotesque items. Just watch any hunting video on youtube and read the comment section. Those are the attitudes that will prevail in 10-20 years. People are nuts. They would run past a child in immidiate danger to feed a hungry dog! Try putting up an elephant hunting video on youtube...hope you've got thick skin, even thicker than the elephant. You'd better not be the nervous type, either. You WILL get death threats! Try to explain that the elephant whose tusk(s) were used to make a cue was killed 100+ years ago, to one of these wide eyed extremists. You'll be better off giving ISIS a lecture on the advantages of homosexuality.

Ivory is not the only thing, either. Ebony and other exotic woods, may soon elicit the same reaction. Most of the priceless rainforest of Madagascar has allready been razed to build crappy chineese cues and Gibson guitar knock-offs. Pulling one of these cues or guitars out in public may soon elicit the same reaction as wearing a fur coat might. The only thing saving you may be that the public doesn't know what is in a pool cue. You won't be able to brag about it in public much longer, that I'm pretty sure of.

I'm not a fan of ivory in cues, but I'm not one of those extremist nutjobs, either. I'm worried about what the future will bring, and I can't know for sure, but I'm not seeing any ivory cues in it. They may still be present in private collections hidden in the basement, but there won't be any kind of market boom.
 
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I disagree. Cues with ivory in them will NOT increase in value. I'm basing this on the current sentiment in the population. Much like ashtrays made of gorillas hands, or stuffed Eskimos, cues with Ivory in them will be looked upon as t grotesque items. Just watch any hunting video on youtube and read the comment section. Those are the attitudes that will prevail in 10-20 years. People are nuts. They would run past a child in immidiate danger to feed a hungry dog! Try putting up an elephant hunting video on youtube...hope you've got thick skin, even thicker than the elephant. You'd better not be the nervous type, either. You WILL get death threats! Try to explain that the elephant whose tusk(s) were used to make a cue was killed 100+ years ago, to one of these wide eyed extremists. You'll be better off giving ISIS a lecture on the advantages of homosexuality.

Ivory is not the only thing, either. Ebony and other exotic woods, may soon elicit the same reaction. Most of the priceless rainforest of Madagascar has allready been razed to build crappy chineese cues and Gibson guitar knock-offs. Pulling one of these cues or guitars out in public may soon elicit the same reaction as wearing a fur coat might. The only thing saving you may be that the public doesn't know what is in a pool cue. You won't be able to brag about it in public much longer, that I'm pretty sure of.

I'm not a fan of ivory in cues, but I'm not one of those extremist nutjobs, either. I'm worried about what the future will bring, and I can't know for sure, but I'm not seeing any ivory cues in it. They may still be present in private collections hidden in the basement, but there won't be any kind of market boom.

You can be sure that certain people will always take offense to ivory. Hell, there are entire religions out there offended by bacon cheeseburgers.

But you can bet the farm that there will always be ivory lovers as well. Always.
And they will pay good money for what they love. It has nothing to do with disrespect for elephants, or any animal for that matter. An ivory lover does not a poacher make. They just love ivory. And it's not a big deal really.
 
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You can be sure that certain people will always take offense to ivory. Hell, there are entire religions out there offended by bacon cheeseburgers.

But you can bet the farm that there will always be ivory lovers as well. Always.
And they will pay good money for what they love. It has nothing to do with disrespect for elephants, or any animal for that matter. An ivory lover does not a poacher make. They just love ivory. And it's not a big deal really.

It sure as hell does.
if there were no ivory lovers there would be no need to slaughter Elephants for the tusks.
 
Long and short of it, some cues will go up in value and some will go down which I think the later will be the majority..

If you're not a collector for value than it'll make no difference to you. If you are, it will and all you'll have to do is as Harrison Ford's female archeologist friend did in "The Last Crusade".... Choose WISELY...:wink:
 
It sure as hell does.
if there were no ivory lovers there would be no need to slaughter Elephants for the tusks.

Sounds like the makings of a radio segment ;)

Fred I understand what you mean, as far as supply and demand. But a lover of ivory and someone willing to break the law over it are two different things.

I like ivory, but like most, if not all of the cue makers out there, if it were to become banned or outlawed, we would simply give it up, not look for ways to support a black market poaching economy.

Ivory has been, can be, and is currently legally obtained, and it's not a problem. The problem is the ones willing to break the law for it (poach), not the law abiding citizens.

If it's simply the "slaughter" of animals at all that bothers you, we have much bigger issues than elephants.
 
I disagree. Cues with ivory in them will NOT increase in value. I'm basing this on the current sentiment in the population. Much like ashtrays made of gorillas hands, or stuffed Eskimos, cues with Ivory in them will be looked upon as t grotesque items. Just watch any hunting video on youtube and read the comment section. Those are the attitudes that will prevail in 10-20 years. People are nuts. They would run past a child in immidiate danger to feed a hungry dog! Try putting up an elephant hunting video on youtube...hope you've got thick skin, even thicker than the elephant. You'd better not be the nervous type, either. You WILL get death threats! Try to explain that the elephant whose tusk(s) were used to make a cue was killed 100+ years ago, to one of these wide eyed extremists. You'll be better off giving ISIS a lecture on the advantages of homosexuality.

Ivory is not the only thing, either. Ebony and other exotic woods, may soon elicit the same reaction. Most of the priceless rainforest of Madagascar has allready been razed to build crappy chineese cues and Gibson guitar knock-offs. Pulling one of these cues or guitars out in public may soon elicit the same reaction as wearing a fur coat might. The only thing saving you may be that the public doesn't know what is in a pool cue. You won't be able to brag about it in public much longer, that I'm pretty sure of.

I'm not a fan of ivory in cues, but I'm not one of those extremist nutjobs, either. I'm worried about what the future will bring, and I can't know for sure, but I'm not seeing any ivory cues in it. They may still be present in private collections hidden in the basement, but there won't be any kind of market boom.


It is not illegal to own a cue with ivory cue in it.

So beautiful, collectable cues mit ivory in them will increase in value, just like they always have.

Lou Figueroa
 
Forgive me in advance for this question. Why exactly is ivory so desirable? I do not seek to engage in this particular political issue, I am just genuinely curious. I have never sought out ivory in a cue, nor have I tried to avoid it. If there are characteristics that make ivory more desirable in a pool cue than other materials, I would just like to know about it.
 
Sounds like the makings of a radio segment ;)

Fred I understand what you mean, as far as supply and demand. But a lover of ivory and someone willing to break the law over it are two different things.

I like ivory, but like most, if not all of the cue makers out there, if it were to become banned or outlawed, we would simply give it up, not look for ways to support a black market poaching economy.

Ivory has been, can be, and is currently legally obtained, and it's not a problem. The problem is the ones willing to break the law for it (poach), not the law abiding citizens.

If it's simply the "slaughter" of animals at all that bothers you, we have much bigger issues than elephants.


Just to kill an animal for its tusks is disgusting.
 
Forgive me in advance for this question. Why exactly is ivory so desirable? I do not seek to engage in this particular political issue, I am just genuinely curious. I have never sought out ivory in a cue, nor have I tried to avoid it. If there are characteristics that make ivory more desirable in a pool cue than other materials, I would just like to know about it.


It is a beautiful, natural product that has been used to decorate treasured items for centuries. I believe there are a number of famous Stradivari violins that have ivory inlays.

No doubt you'll be able to pick them up for next to nothing soon, lol.

Lou Figueroa
 
Where will the legal burden of proof be in these regulations? If I understand this cues made with legally obtained ivory prior to July 7, 2016 are grandfathered in and can continue to be sold and traded. However if you ship a cue can it be examined and confiscated at some point in the process until/unless you can prove it was both made before July 7th AND contains only legally obtained Ivory?

I would imagine if you have formal documentation from the original cue manufacturer that would be acceptable, but the vast majority of cues have no such documentation, either because the original manufacturer didn't supply it in the first place, or because the cue has been resold a few times and the paperwork lost. Some cues may have a date physically marked on them but many do not. Owners of ivory cues may have go through their collections and contact all the manufacturers for documentation, assuming the manufacturers are still alive and can be contacted.
 
[/B]

Just to kill an animal for its tusks is disgusting.


While it's true some poachers kill an elephant, cut off the tusks and run (they're under a little pressure), elephants meat is quite popular too. At like maybe 6,000 pounds per, you could probably make more off the meat than the tusks, should you have the time to harvest it.

Lou Figueroa
their ears make
beautiful wraps
that wear like iron
 
Why exactly is ivory so desirable?
If there are characteristics that make ivory more desirable in a pool cue than other materials, I would just like to know about it.




I reduced your orig. post to its core question which basically is whether ivory performs
any differently or else why all the hullabaloo about not being able to use it like years gone by.


Naysayers will allege there's no physical difference.....Advocates respond....."R U Nuts?"
That's the basic argument & you can stay on the fence or else one side or the other.

Without any firsthand, extensive experience playing with cues with ivory, you'll be swayed
by statements that you won't be in a position to either affirm or refute. Only experience
will enable you to differentiate and there's different types of ivory cue joints.

You can tell which version I prefer but others obviously prefer other types of cue joints.
There's also the issue of ferrules and that's where the difference is more conspicuous.
Ivory ferrules resonate & sound differently than ferrules made from synthetic materials.

As far as for inlays and rings, personally, white looks like white to me so there are other
materials that can be substituted and so the only difference is ivory as a material costs
more than other alternatives, ergo, the cue's price and market value.



So that's about it.....fans of ivory like myself believe it works better for some aspects of
the cue's anatomy whereas others either have no opinion, believe otherwise or concur
but are now subservient to the ivory restrictions based upon where they may live, like
CA where I live. Were it not for the ban, I would have more cues being built right now.



Matt B.
 
Not worth the headache

I would sum this up more simply: It's not worth the headache. Owning a cue with ivory in it and then trying to resell it again raises all sorts of possible headaches for both buyers and sellers. I'm of the opinion that I'll no longer be buying any cues with ivory in them, other than ferrules, simply because I don't want to have to deal with the headache if one happens to get seized and then I have to go through the process of getting it back. Conversely as a buyer I'm concerned about receiving a cue that a buyer cannot prove was made prior to a particular date. For me it's just not worth the hassle.

Where will the legal burden of proof be in these regulations? If I understand this cues made with legally obtained ivory prior to July 7, 2016 are grandfathered in and can continue to be sold and traded. However if you ship a cue can it be examined and confiscated at some point in the process until/unless you can prove it was both made before July 7th AND contains only legally obtained Ivory?

I would imagine if you have formal documentation from the original cue manufacturer that would be acceptable, but the vast majority of cues have no such documentation, either because the original manufacturer didn't supply it in the first place, or because the cue has been resold a few times and the paperwork lost. Some cues may have a date physically marked on them but many do not. Owners of ivory cues may have go through their collections and contact all the manufacturers for documentation, assuming the manufacturers are still alive and can be contacted.
 
I am a little confused. If you can't legally sell cues with ivory out of state or in state if you live in California, exactly how are your cues gonna go up in value?
 
Forgive me in advance for this question. Why exactly is ivory so desirable? I do not seek to engage in this particular political issue, I am just genuinely curious. I have never sought out ivory in a cue, nor have I tried to avoid it. If there are characteristics that make ivory more desirable in a pool cue than other materials, I would just like to know about it.

IMO, nothing.

Ivory gives a different feeling than a metal joint, but you can pretty much recreate it with a synthetic material. As a bonus, that material is less likely to crack because of sudden temperature changes etc..

As a ferrule, Ivory deflects a bit and can also crack. I IS easier to keep clean than some variations of plastic, but imo it doesn't have such a fantastic hit. That is a matter of opinion. The performance (deflection and spin put on the ball) is not in any measurable way superior to the best plastics. I dare anyone to prove otherwise. You could easily find a lower deflecting plastic, that is also more resistant to cracking for instance.

For an inlay material it makes the whole thing seem expensive and exclusive. That's about it.

To me the whole thing reminds me of fly-tying, one of my other hobbies. A commonly used feather for the sides of a classical salmon fly's wings (called "cheeks") come from an endangered bird called jungle cock (really). When that bird became endangered there was a sudden shortage of those feathers and they fetched such a high price that some started breeding them for that specific purpose, even though they are not that easy to care for, making it expensive. Obviously the feathers became ridiculously expensive for a short while (especially for what it is, a small "accent" to the wing ,not even the main part). It has a yellow spot that sort of resembles an eye. People were arguing that without it, the flies would not catch fish. These are the conservative types that will only use classical flies. Very few people actually bother with this anymore, as modern flies are just as effective and much easier to make. It can also be argued that the modern files are more realistic and have an advantage with selective fish and there is no question that most of them are more robust than the more frail classical ones. The classical flies do have some beauty to them, but they are by most fishermen relegated to show-pieces. I guess you could still buy these "farmed" jungle cock feathers, but I guess that would be for someone who would use the fly in a competition, not so much for fishing. If you didn't care about money at all, then maybe. However, if there was no way to farm those birds, I don'¨t think those feathers would be used at all, frankly. And I don't think the prices are at that extreme level they once were, but at a more natural point, because the real feathers are competing against fakes that look great and work great and cost a fraction of the price. People realized that they were paying for a non-existing advantage. In the end paying an extreme premium for something will deter most customers, unless a very specific advantage is gained. It wasn't with original feathers,and it isn't with ivory.

Well for a short while, at the highest price point, people found out that they could easily substitute those rare and extremely expensive feathers with others, which could be dyed to match the original. With some care, the fly still looked great and guess what? The flies still caught fish. Some even skipped the cheeks all together. Even then the flies still caught fish. In fact I've substituted classical complex wings with extremely simple hair wings even wholly synthetic wings, and they catch even more fish. The whole thing was just bs, and those feathers could easily be skipped or substituted (if you insist on the classical look) like a lot of other endangered bird feathers, which are routinely substituted in for instance English "spider flies".
 
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Overlord, here's the reason.......

"Any cue made prior to July 7 from legally imported ivory can still be sold from state to state."

All I have to do is drive to Las Vegas for one of the annual cue shows and I can sell or trade
my cues and buy another ivory joint cue and return to California legally owning my new cue.

Let's face it......that's the only way my Prewitt cue would bring the highest value....in person
viewing and no more will be made like mine so I should do okay.......and with cash in hand
to help seal the deal, I hope to be able some day to score a flat ivory joint Hercek cue. It
simply requires me to attend an out of state cue show which would be a fun thing to do.


Matt B.
 
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