"A" joint

qbilder said:
Curious, how could you notice a difference in feel and stiffness? Did you first put it together with a 1" tenon, then cut and rejoin with a 1/2" tenon? If you are referencing two separate cues then you cannot assume the 1/2" difference in "A" joint tenon made the difference you felt. The only way to know if there is a difference in feel is to test various "A" joints on the same cue. But that's not logical unless you don't ever glue up the "A" joint, and then you won't have the strength dampening affects of the glue so it's not a trusty "feel" test, anyway. So in essence, you can really only get an accurate assessment of different "A" joints by building lots & lots of cues using same woods in each category, and then test them all against one another at the same time so you don't get clouded results. And every cue has to be the same weight, dimensions, balance, etc. and using the exact same shaft on every butt. Only then can you even begin to quantify the difference in feel, stiffness, hardness, performance, etc. from one joint type to another.

Just some food for thought ;)
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Thanks Eric! You just saved me a bunch of typing! LOL

Sherm
 
a joint

rick told how he full cored his cues and i am impressed . i put one together threw it outside,it aint warped yet.thanks for the info rick.
 
danny turner said:
rick told how he full cored his cues and i am impressed . i put one together threw it outside,it aint warped yet.thanks for the info rick.
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Danny,

You are a detailed guy and a real gentleman and I enjoy our correspondences.

You have a winning attitude, I know in the future I will also gain a few Danny insider cue making tips. One hand always washes the other. Especially between friends.

Thanks,

Rick
 
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Just some food for thought.... I like to compare cues and fine guitars construction/tone wise. IMO the A-joint on a guitar is where the neck and body join.

Some guitars have bolt on necks.
Some have set, glue in necks.
Some have one piece neck/bodys.

Deep, rich, fat tones come from high quality dense woods.
Alder, basswood, etc... not so much.
 
Qcreator said:
Just some food for thought.... I like to compare cues and fine guitars construction/tone wise. IMO the A-joint on a guitar is where the neck and body join.

Some guitars have bolt on necks.
Some have set, glue in necks.
Some have one piece neck/bodys.

Deep, rich, fat tones come from high quality dense woods.
Alder, basswood, etc... not so much.
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Hi John.

Good point and the great tonality comes when you make the money ball.

I think it is B Flat on 13 mm shafts and C on 12.75.

Rick
 
Eric brings up a good point. Maple is not the best tone woods much less shaft rejects. I use purple heart under the wrap and for segmented handle cues I like matching the forarm. I am building myself a set of cocobolo segmented handle cues and I used nice bocote as my dowel. Why use crap wood under good tone wood. Your building a tonal instrument. Dont get cheap at one of the most important parts.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
What do build your shafts out of?
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I supposed I should have worded that better. Maple is not as solid and tonal as ebony, cocbolo, bocote, purpleheart and quite a few others. But maple has a much greater ability to be compressed and expand. But in musical instruments it is not a winner. You don't see alot of high end guitars made with maple back and sides. BUt a cocobolo shaft would be mighty stiff wouldn't it. To stiff imo. You are far more experienced than I and I assume you don't agree with my statment about coreing materials. I would love to hear your opinions either here or pm. Knowladge is what leads to great work. I have used hard rock maple in a segmented handle and in several wrap handles and I like the feel and tone of the harder denser woods in those positions personally. For example the cue in my avatar I used pau santo core through the handle into the bubinga forarm.
 
ComptonCustomCues said:
I supposed I should have worded that better. Maple is not as solid and tonal as ebony, cocbolo, bocote, purpleheart and quite a few others. But maple has a much greater ability to be compressed and expand. But in musical instruments it is not a winner. You don't see alot of high end guitars made with maple back and sides. BUt a cocobolo shaft would be mighty stiff wouldn't it. To stiff imo. You are far more experienced than I and I assume you don't agree with my statment about coreing materials. I would love to hear your opinions either here or pm. Knowladge is what leads to great work. I have used hard rock maple in a segmented handle and in several wrap handles and I like the feel and tone of the harder denser woods in those positions personally. For example the cue in my avatar I used pau santo core through the handle into the bubinga forarm.
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Stradivarius would be disappointed with your analogy. Maple (striped) is used on many, many high end guitars, violins, mandolins, violas and dulcimers. The reason you do not see it on a lot of guitars is because of mechanical , not tonal properties. It is difficult to bend in the standard guitar shapes.
 
Just like with instruments, maple has it's place in cues. Maple offers a calmer, smokier tone than a more dense wood like rosewoods. They offer a sharper, higher pitched tone. Accomplished luthiers know how to utilize varying types of wood in unison to create a specific sound. They don't put one wood above another, but simply recognize that different woods used in specific components give different acoustics. Learning their woods & having the ability apply that knowledge to an audibly artistic science is key to building superb sounding instruments.

I like to think we as cue makers are not so different. We have the "assemblers" who are well capable of building generic quality cues that are straight, weigh 19oz. & pocket balls just fine. Then there are the artisans who take a scientific approach to making a cue feel & play like it's alive in your hands. They do this with knowledge of wood and the ability to apply that knowledge to an artistic science. It's not musical instruments. It's cues. They're different and the science is different, though the two do/can share many of the same principles. Just like anybody can use proven acoustic materials to assemble a nice sounding guitar, anybody can take cocobolo & maple and assemble a nice playing cue. Knowing why you are using those materials together and being able to expand from those basics into the finer details of the build, is really where the skill lies.

That's my romantic take on building cues. I believe everything must be considered. The components, dimensions, materials, qualities of materials, etc. must all be considered & given thoughtful respect. Like I always say, "it's not how you do it, but how WELL you do it".
 
qbilder said:
Just like with instruments, maple has it's place in cues. Maple offers a calmer, smokier tone than a more dense wood like rosewoods. They offer a sharper, higher pitched tone. Accomplished luthiers know how to utilize varying types of wood in unison to create a specific sound. They don't put one wood above another, but simply recognize that different woods used in specific components give different acoustics. Learning their woods & having the ability apply that knowledge to an audibly artistic science is key to building superb sounding instruments.

I like to think we as cue makers are not so different. We have the "assemblers" who are well capable of building generic quality cues that are straight, weigh 19oz. & pocket balls just fine. Then there are the artisans who take a scientific approach to making a cue feel & play like it's alive in your hands. They do this with knowledge of wood and the ability to apply that knowledge to an artistic science. It's not musical instruments. It's cues. They're different and the science is different, though the two do/can share many of the same principles. Just like anybody can use proven acoustic materials to assemble a nice sounding guitar, anybody can take cocobolo & maple and assemble a nice playing cue. Knowing why you are using those materials together and being able to expand from those basics into the finer details of the build, is really where the skill lies.

That's my romantic take on building cues. I believe everything must be considered. The components, dimensions, materials, qualities of materials, etc. must all be considered & given thoughtful respect. Like I always say, "it's not how you do it, but how WELL you do it".
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Word !
In assembling A-jointed butts, you have the opportunity to accentuate resonance by combining woods ( epoxy and phenolics as well ).

Btw, who says you can only use two core woods if you core the forearm and handle and not use one long piece ?:grin:
Also, I like placing flex where it's needed and do away with it where it's not really needed.
 
Is there any value to putting say a .025 thick phenolic washer between the handle and forearm,then putting the ring around that?

Would the end-grain wicking phenomena affect gluing like this? Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
Is there any value to putting say a .025 thick phenolic washer between the handle and forearm,then putting the ring around that?

Would the end-grain wicking phenomena affect gluing like this? Tommy D.
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Maybe, in certain joints. The shorter tenon joints rely heavily on the faces and the connecting screw for the bond, strength. Joints with long tenons have a much larger gluing surface. Most of that is linear, not end grain, and as such bonds stronger. In this joint type, the end grain soaking up glue doesn't matter near as much as with short tenon joints. The type of adhesive you are using also matters a lot. The thicker the epoxy, the less the end grain can soak away from the surface. But be sure it's a sticky, strong epoxy. A phenolic collar isn't necessarily going to do anything except add complexity by having an extra part in the cue. But if your glue isn't doing it's job or is the wrong glue for the job, that phenolic can act as a buffer to prevent buzzing.
 
Eric you statment is very true. A cue imho must not be too stiff. The a joint can soften or stiffen the hit of a cue. The forarm woods come into play as well as the handle. The tone I am looking for in my cues is a nice even high pitch tone. I want it to hold that tone for a short length of time. When you bump a muccie at the a joint the tip flexes a great amount and for a very short time(an example of what I consider to be a poor hitting cue). I want it to flex a little but hold the "note" for a longer length of time. You can view the vibration as a frequency or note. The more the flex the lower the tone and note. The less the flex the higher the tone and note. My goal is a certian tone I like to hear and for the cue not to be dead. In other words sustain its note. Imo you are building a musical instument, just not in the fashion most people would think of one. And I am aware of the use of maple in instruments and I again said it in the wrong way. I personally don't like the tone of maple in acoustic guitars but it is a common thing in violins from what I understand. And the idea of combining various woods to acheive a great cue is spot on imho. I just like coreing with certian woods. I don't core birdseye but all other maple I try to. For more than just the tone. Weight is a factor too. These are just my opinions and the way I am building cues now. I have learned alot over the past few years and I'm sure I will continue to learn a great deal more from both trying new things and learning from more knowledgeable artisians than myself.
 
Guerra Cues said:
Just brainstorming a little bit...
As many of my friends cuemakers told me before there are many ways to skin a cat... Having said that, I have been experimenting several different ways of doing the "A" joint and none of them are wrong, I noticed however a difference on the "hit".
I noticed that if I do an "A" joint with 1" tenon I get a stiffer feel and if I do 0.5" tenon I still get a stiff but I think I get a more solid feel... Either way I am happy with the results and the only thing I haven't tried was a wood tenon threaded with no metal or G10 screws at the "A" joint.
I have made up my mind on the method that I will use and I have built 5 cues that way and have 4 more in the oven...
Just wondering what are the other cuemakers feelings about this subject.
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If you go for wood threads, you may want to opt for 11TPI rather than 18TPI. There are some woods that just don't like the finer threads. I've hosed a couple of forearms by stripping the threads. My first 3 were awesome. Number 4, antiawesome. I'm not sure what happened. I bored the hole to the same size as the others, but no dice. I cut it shorter and tried again to no avail. The wood came from a friend who had the wood in his shop for who knows how long. For the rest of the wood that came from him, I'm planning on running a wet sponge across the area to be threaded before cutting.
 
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Lexicologist71 said:
If you go for wood threads, you may want to opt for 11TPI rather than 18TPI. There are some woods that just don't like the finer threads. I've hosed a couple of forearms by stripping the threads. My first 3 were awesome. Number 4, antiawesome. I'm not sure what happened. I bored the hole to the same size as the others, but no dice. I cut it shorter and tried again to no avail. The wood came from a friend who had the wood in his shop for who knows how long. For the rest of the wood that came from him, I'm planning on running a wet sponge across the area to be threaded before cutting.
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Paul,
Try thin CA and a bit of wax, same way you would do a ferrule.
 
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