A lesson with JBKY.. John Brumback, World Champion.

TheThaiger said:
IS there any danger of anyone ever providing any real, tangible results from lessons like these, y'know, things that are quantifiable and that?

I'm going to approach this as a question and provide some thoughts on "lessons". I'm not interested in pissing matches. I'll agree that one can spend a good deal of money on available instructional dvd's that provide only a modicum of utile info for players beyond a certain level - though those few gems I often consider worth the price of admission.
Pro players have made the mistakes that amatuers struggle thru myriad times, and learned to avoid most of them by doing things the "righter" way. It's amazing how quickly & easily they can "turn your head" to a subtly different way of excuting, approaching, thinking about, things you do - and it's immediately like a light bulb flips on, permanently - tangibly - quantifiably.
You could pass right by many of these improvements via individual trial & error for no other reason than that the average Joe doesn't/can't invest the kind of time required to scrutinize the number of outcomes that pros are exposed to. Hell, most of them learned crucial nuggets from those before them - and paid more than the price of a dvd or lesson.
A seasoned pro can watch a highly talented amatuer & quickly get a read on their speed by the way they do things - not necessarily their initial results. They know that if you're doing too many things the "wronger" way - you'll break down sooner than later.
In 2001, I had Grady Mathews into my home for a day. I can tell you that what I learned from him was tangible & quantifiable. Doesn't mean I've invested the time to make myself a pro player - I have a good job, and there's no guarantee that one can be a successful pro just because you decide to make the effort. But he made lasting improvements to my thought & understanding processes, and I use things I learned from him (and that allowed me to learn more thru them) ALL the time. Pool is a simple game in many ways - but one of the major ways we complicate it is by tripping over our ignorance of information that is, thankfully, readily available today.
John is a great player all around - but he's a specialist at banks, and he's offering up teachings about a specialty gleaned from a lifetime of becoming the best. His dvd gives you an understanding to improve at a basic, critical level, and let the light bulb turn on going forward. The best teaching provides a platform to continue to learn on your own - from an informed line of sight.
It's true that many of the training dvd's available are diluted by trying to broach too much subject matter, and to too wide a market competency level.
John really is hitting home with his speciality & giving you a real opportunity to improve your results by simplifying your appoach thru understanding.
That can be tangible & quantifiable if you make it so.
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cookie man said:
Hello, We are talking about John Brumback here. John talks banks, everyone gets quiet and listens.
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Not me! I can see he can bank, but I don't see the mystery or magic. He's just good at it. I can see good players or artists anywhere - it's not going to make me any better.
 
mdavis228 said:
TheThaiger said:
IS there any danger of anyone ever providing any real, tangible results from lessons like these, y'know, things that are quantifiable and that?

I'm going to approach this as a question and provide some thoughts on "lessons". I'm not interested in pissing matches. I'll agree that one can spend a good deal of money on available instructional dvd's that provide only a modicum of utile info for players beyond a certain level - though those few gems I often consider worth the price of admission.
Pro players have made the mistakes that amatuers struggle thru myriad times, and learned to avoid most of them by doing things the "righter" way. It's amazing how quickly & easily they can "turn your head" to a subtly different way of excuting, approaching, thinking about, things you do - and it's immediately like a light bulb flips on, permanently - tangibly - quantifiably.
You could pass right by many of these improvements via individual trial & error for no other reason than that the average Joe doesn't/can't invest the kind of time required to scrutinize the number of outcomes that pros are exposed to. Hell, most of them learned crucial nuggets from those before them - and paid more than the price of a dvd or lesson.
A seasoned pro can watch a highly talented amatuer & quickly get a read on their speed by the way they do things - not necessarily their initial results. They know that if you're doing too many things the "wronger" way - you'll break down sooner than later.
In 2001, I had Grady Mathews into my home for a day. I can tell you that what I learned from him was tangible & quantifiable. Doesn't mean I've invested the time to make myself a pro player - I have a good job, and there's no guarantee that one can be a successful pro just because you decide to make the effort. But he made lasting improvements to my thought & understanding processes, and I use things I learned from him (and that allowed me to learn more thru them) ALL the time. Pool is a simple game in many ways - but one of the major ways we complicate it is by tripping over our ignorance of information that is, thankfully, readily available today.
John is a great player all around - but he's a specialist at banks, and he's offering up teachings about a specialty gleaned from a lifetime of becoming the best. His dvd gives you an understanding to improve at a basic, critical level, and let the light bulb turn on going forward. The best teaching provides a platform to continue to learn on your own - from an informed line of sight.
It's true that many of the training dvd's available are diluted by trying to broach too much subject matter, and to too wide a market competency level.
John really is hitting home with his speciality & giving you a real opportunity to improve your results by simplifying your appoach thru understanding.
That can be tangible & quantifiable if you make it so.
Click to expand...

Thanks. My problem with many of these dvds is how laboured they are. A combined bank/safety/potting etc video, taking the highlights from each, would sell a tonne. The padding drives me mad.
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TheThaiger said:
Not me! I can see he can bank, but I don't see the mystery or magic. He's just good at it. I can see good players or artists anywhere - it's not going to make me any better.
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Really, how do you get better if you don't learn from the experts?
 
John won the all-around @ DCC and has placed in the $ in all 3 events. Along with being in action over the past few years.

That's in itself is amazing.

TheThaiger said:
Not me! I can see he can bank, but I don't see the mystery or magic. He's just good at it. I can see good players or artists anywhere - it's not going to make me any better.
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Neil said:
TheThaiger said:
The padding drives you mad. You want just the best info, and just the info that you are able to discern at your level of play, and you want it NOW. Don't waste your time with the parts that you tend to gloss over because you don't yet know enough to realize that those parts are important too. And, if you can't get just the best stuff NOW, you will tell them to forget it and go to the HAMB method of learning. That only takes years of trial and error, and is fraught with peril. :banghead:
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I think bankpool and banks are and Is the hardest pool game to learn without getting to play with a champion player at the game.Most people that I have worked with have been banking wrong their whole lives and didn't have a clue untill I showed them and then you should see the look on their face,LOL I hope this Is not considered padding.I don't recon I know what padding means anyway really.John B.
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Neil, I agree with the spirit of everything you've said here.
But, please...
Correct you're posting so that it doesn't read as if the "originally posted" quote is from me - it is NOT, and in no way represents the spirit of what I actually DID post.
 
TheThaiger said:
Thanks. My problem with many of these dvds is how laboured they are. A combined bank/safety/potting etc video, taking the highlights from each, would sell a tonne. The padding drives me mad.
Click to expand...

I have bought several DVDs and other instructional material that I only learned one thing from, and I still feel it was worth the price although I wish I had gotten more out of it. I have others that I learned a lot from and feel like I stole the information.
Johns DVD is falls in the second category! Yes I produced it, so I have a vested interest in it's success, however the information John put out is truly new to me, and I believe, new to the majority of people playing pool.
It will improve the way most players bank and that is why people are excited!
I will tell you what I will do, if you buy it and you can't bank better after watching it (with a little Practice), come on here tell us what you think.
Then send it back to me, and I will write you a check for the purchase price plus your shipping cost.
Mark Otto
 
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Mark, I agree entirely about John's DVD.
Please note above, as with Neil, about correcting your post to not reflect that what you quote was said by me - it was not. Look at MY post.
Guess it's time to say "Pay attention before you hit send, folks!"
I own this DVD and am very happy with it... Looking at it as I type this in fact.
 
mdavis228 said:
Mark, I agree entirely about John's DVD.
Please note above, as with Neil, about correcting your post to not reflect that what you quote was said by me - it was not. Look at MY post.
Guess it's time to say "Pay attention before you hit send, folks!"
I own this DVD and am very happy with it... Looking at it as I type this in fact.
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Sorry, I fixed it.
I saw what you had said to Neil but he had fixed it alreadty so I didn't see what you were saying.
Thanks for the purchase.
Mark
 
pool101 said:
I have bought several DVDs and other instructional material that I only learned one thing from, and I still feel it was worth the price although I wish I had gotten more out of it. I have others that I learned a lot from and feel like I stole the information.
Johns DVD is falls in the second category! Yes I produced it, so I have a vested interest in it's success, however the information John put out is truly new to me, and I believe, new to the majority of people playing pool.
It will improve the way most players bank and that is why people are excited!
I will tell you what I will do, if you buy it and you can't bank better after watching it (with a little Practice), come on here tell us what you think.
Then send it back to me, and I will write you a check for the purchase price plus your shipping cost.
Mark Otto
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It's a good offer but I think I'll pass, thanks. If it makes me a world champ, I'll be the one writing the cheques!

My point here is, if there are so many nuggets of info out there, why the hell do we have to pay a lot of money for it? Why isn't this info freely available and known to all? If there is *genuinely* undisputed best practice, why don't we all know about it? Why does the pool community close ranks around those imparting the info - shouldn't it be disseminating it to all and sundry, without asking them to pay $60 for a product of uncertain quality?

I am most definitely not singling out JB here BTW - just asking a general question. It just seems the profit of the few is more important to AZB than the knowledge of the many.
 
Neil said:
The padding drives you mad. You want just the best info, and just the info that you are able to discern at your level of play, and you want it NOW. Don't waste your time with the parts that you tend to gloss over because you don't yet know enough to realize that those parts are important too. And, if you can't get just the best stuff NOW, you will tell them to forget it and go to the HAMB method of learning. That only takes years of trial and error, and is fraught with peril. :banghead:
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Are you seriously telling me a 90 min dvd on banking couldn't be condensed into 5 mins of pertinent footage?

Everywhere in the world of pool: padding. Frankly, I'm not surprised you love it so much. I wonder if you've ever finished a rack of 9 ball in under 20 mins. In case you hadn't noticed, time is an important commodity - the pool world learns this or dies. Actually, it IS dying. S-l-o-w-l-y.

Some of us are trying to change that, whilst others are just content to massage their egos, Neil.
 
I changed your comment to make a point. Red words in italics are mine.

TheThaiger said:
My point here is, if there are so many nuggets of info out about chemical engineering, why the hell do we have to pay a lot of money for a chemical engineering degree? Why isn't this info freely available and known to all? If there is *genuinely* undisputed best practice, why don't we all know about it? Why does the engineering community close ranks around those imparting the info - shouldn't it be disseminating it to all and sundry, without asking them to pay $ for a product of uncertain quality?
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He's asking for something very basic, and you seem to fall back on your unnamed pro, or "pro I know" quotes.

The question of can you say anything quantifiable which you learned that might help me understand if this is all worth it, is relatively easy.

"Yes, I Wille was bridging wrong and using inside english when for the straight backs I needed to use center ball and open hand bridge."

You've provided information and not hurt any of the parties involved.

Williebetmore said:
Tiger-man,
The other thing that springs to mind IMMEDIATELY upon reading your post is: If you knew what you don't know, then you wouldn't "not know" it.

Danny D says this everytime he hears an observation similar to yours.

Once you develop a standardized written test, and a practical skills banking test; then administer them to students before and after their lessons; you are free to remain skeptical and cynical (though the latter is at your own risk - your reputation is lagging a fair bit behind John Brumback's:)).

I have had several days of lessons from John B. (along with a pro player who jumped at a chance to learn from John), and my observation is IDENTICAL to Mojoe's. John is an excellent and enthusiastic teacher. It would be a pathetically poor student indeed who did not show significant improvement from John's direction.

I would completely crush my "Pre-John Brumback Lesson" self at banks and one pocket:); and so would the pro who also took the lessons with me. Sorry I do not have the cloning technology necessary to prove my assertion for you.
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Banks said:
I guess you don't believe in Driver's Education either.

I'll give you a pass.. I wake up on the airheaded side of the bed sometimes myself. :thumbup:

But, no, I really don't think most people would be willing to spend months and countless hours compiling stats before a lesson and again afterwards.
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Even if they did, the results would be biased, right? What about all the practice he got in for the "after" results.
 
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