A long comment on "aiming systems" ...

champ2107 said:
May i ask what you mean by executed exactly and we will talk about hal houles 1/2 pivot system that you use along with spiderwebbcomm,petepoolguy? Even though the hal houle 1/2 pivot system is a cte system and cte/pro1 starts out as one and when really mastered it no longer is a cte system, this is my opinion from my experience. my opinion is these are two different systems and we can discuss that another time.
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Hi Champ,

By exactly is just that: exactly as described in the article. AFAIK Pro One is still a CTE system: it includes the CTEL and secondary lines, it just removes the manual pivot.
 
Champ,
Your killing us.
The "Naysayers" definitely don't want you.
The "Yeasayers" seem to have thrown you off the island.
That leaves you just in the middle (Center) with No edge. Thus homeless. Hope it's warm in the dumpster. Before you post some dribble remember that I'm still willing to come to Toronto for a personal CTE lesson.

Oh on a side note. Are you and Travis related?

Nick
 
Nick, wouldn't you be all ascared to go to Toronto all by yourself?

Didn't you see the pic that Chump posted stating that, "this is who you'll have to deal with if you come to Toronto".

Better stop by Regina and pick up some back up.
 
Well, I see we are over 600 posts now..This is really getting [sic] exciting...And, are we any closer now, to a consortium ?...Let me guess...NO !...But it is certainly enjoyable, to see grown men, make complete idiots of themselves...I for one, think 'aiming system' threads should be banned, before someone gets hurt.. No one has ever been able to prove, ANYTHING, to ANYBOBY..:D (and Lord knows they've tried)

Lets just all work on developing the "P.T.B.I.T.H" aiming system, that has worked for me, for 50 years..If followed correctly, it is 100% guaranteed to work, EVERY time..

PS..Not recommended for A.S.S. guys, or APA 2's, as it is way too advanced...:p
 
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SJDinPHX said:
No one has ever been able to prove, ANYTHING, to ANYBOBY..:D (and Lord knows they've tried)
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Yea, you would think the naysayers would give up the stupid fight, they certainly can't prove anything about cte, even to themselves since they are too stubborn to really learn it. Shame they have closed minds.


Dave Stem
P.I.I.T.H. system, but there is so much more to pool than that.
 
SJDinPHX said:
PS..Not recommended for A.S.S. guys, or APA 2's, as it is way too advanced...:p
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Since you are being so helpful, you will tell us at which APA Skill level it might not be "too advanced"...

Signed,
an APA 5 who just loves the condescension.
 
SJDinPHX said:
Well, I see we are over 600 posts now..This is really getting [sic] exciting...And, are we any closer now, to a consortium ?...Let me guess...NO !...But it is certainly enjoyable, to see grown men, make complete idiots of themselves...I for one, think 'aiming system' threads should be banned, before someone gets hurt.. No one has ever been able to prove, ANYTHING, to ANYBOBY..:D (and Lord knows they've tried)

Lets just all work on developing the "P.T.B.I.T.H" aiming system, that has worked for me, for 50 years..If followed correctly, it is 100% guaranteed to work, EVERY time..

PS..Not recommended for A.S.S. guys, or APA 2's, as it is way too advanced...:p
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100% guaranteed to work, EVERY time... How stupid is that claim.


Dave Stem
 
I've been chased down the street after winning about $600 in Chicago (Chris' 1998) and flashed a gun from a waistband in LA (HardTimes 1996). What's he going to do take out an eye with a replica of the CN Tower? We Canadians are a fun loving bunch.

Just imagine what would happen in the US if the President gave a reporter the finger. The DOW would plunge by 4000 points and they would have to call in the National Guard to quell the riot.

images

I miss this guy

Blue Hog ridr said:
Nick, wouldn't you be all ascared to go to Toronto all by yourself?

Didn't you see the pic that Chump posted stating that, "this is who you'll have to deal with if you come to Toronto".

Better stop by Regina and pick up some back up.
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justadub said:
Since you are being so helpful, you will tell us at which APA Skill level it might not be "too advanced"...

Signed,
an APA 5 who just loves the condescension.
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Whichever level you use the "Put The Ball In The Hole" (P.T.B.I.T.H.) consistently!:grin:
 
If it's worked for 50 years......

SJDinPHX said:
Well, I see we are over 600 posts now..This is really getting [sic] exciting...And, are we any closer now, to a consortium ?...Let me guess...NO !...But it is certainly enjoyable, to see grown men, make complete idiots of themselves...I for one, think 'aiming system' threads should be banned, before someone gets hurt.. No one has ever been able to prove, ANYTHING, to ANYBOBY..:D (and Lord knows they've tried)

Lets just all work on developing the "P.T.B.I.T.H" aiming system, that has worked for me, for 50 years..If followed correctly, it is 100% guaranteed to work, EVERY time..

PS..Not recommended for A.S.S. guys, or APA 2's, as it is way too advanced...:p
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OK, Mr. Jack.
Please record yourself playing the Ghost, while using the "Pffffth" aiming system. I want to see that. :p
 
Cornerman said:
Me too!

HTH,

Freddie <~~~ with a little dang dang sauce
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Me too! Yummy!

It seems to me that certain CTE proponents who have a "chicken wing stroke" might do better to spend more time trying to improve their cue stroke then lecturing the rest of us on how to aim. :D
 
Nick B said:
Champ,
Your killing us.
The "Naysayers" definitely don't want you.
The "Yeasayers" seem to have thrown you off the island.
That leaves you just in the middle (Center) with No edge. Thus homeless. Hope it's warm in the dumpster. Before you post some dribble remember that I'm still willing to come to Toronto for a personal CTE lesson.

Oh on a side note. Are you and Travis related?

Nick
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Nice post Nick :thumbup:
 
Grilled Cheese said:
I never said aiming wasn't important. Or that a person will play well who doesn't know how to aim at all just because they have a super-stroke. What I said was that sufficient aiming is learned way, way earlier in one's game than the perfection of their stroke. Or before they develop a high level, or high quality stroke. I contend that a lot of what is blamed on aiming, should really be blamed on stroke error. I've even conceded like 15 times already in this thread that despite all that, aim error can still exist or creep up here and there.
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And I disagree. (surprise) I think that aiming is NOT sufficiently learned early on because people desperately want to move to pocketing. So they do and as a result they begin to develop swoopy strokes due to bad aim. The reason people develop this steering habit is because they aimed wrong and yet with enough repetition they have learned that just a little swipe here and there works to pocket the ball. But then they struggle to play position properly because the steering limits what they can do.

I firmly believe that this is the cause of Body English.




Yes, you're right, it would be a false dichotomy to make it one or the other. Which is why I never said such a thing. It would also be false to state one has greater importance than the other. They are both needed to execute a shot. Without one, the shot misses.
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Except that you can aim wrong and make the shot with steering. But you can't steer the shot IN when you are aimed right.

So it's more important in my view to learn aiming DEEPLY before moving on to pocketing and position play. And along with that in perfect tandem comes learning to stroke. But one can learn to stroke properly and perfectly and still not be able to aim/align right.


My position, if you would read for once to understand - is that aiming is easier to learn and get decent at; whereas, stroke takes a long time. Think of it like collecting tools on your way to having a full shop. The aiming tool gets acquired earlier on. But the stroke tool takes time to get. The job requires both, but the missing stroke tool is ruining the whole job.
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I understand your position and I do not agree with it. I do not think aiming is easier. I think you want it to be. But if aiming were easier then it wouldn't find so much resonance with intermediate to pro players.

There was a thread where James Roberts, who was a staunch opponent of aiming systems, finally decided to learn one and when he did he reported immediate improvement. This is a guy who plays shortstop speed and better so it's ludicrous to make an assumption that he was having stroke problems. Stevie Moore was a world class player BEFORE going to Stan. There are plenty of testimonials of very very very good players who elected to learn these systems long after they had become very good. Those player have stood up and said that learning the systems has made them even better.

So it's not quite as cut and dried as you speculate.


You provided a thought experiment about which is quoted. I reject it, because it is not based on what I said or what I claim. Instead, here is a better thought experiment...


Take an APA SL5, give that person SVB's stroke. Would they or would they not almost instantly go up several levels? I say that because an SL5 has decent aiming. Can aim most shots. Now, for the sake of this thought experiment, I am excluding game-knowledge (position play, routes, strategy). They may miss some shots because of wrong aim. Sure.


Now, take that same APA SL5 ...but instead of having SVB's stroke, they now have Stan Shuffett's ability to determine perfect aim lines. Will they be as good? They'll improve because that mediocre/decent aim will now become near flawless aim. But, that potential will never be realized because their stroke sucks. And yes, APA SL5's have poor stroke. This assumes that CTE even works in the first place. But this is for the sake of argument.
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Either way they will improve several levels.



What is the difference in my thought experiment? I assume an intermediate level of aiming knowledge and skill. I don't think there's anyone, short of a complete first day beginner, who doesn't have some aiming ability. Your experiment is extreme for that reason, and not based on what I am claiming.
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And yet you don't assume the same level of skill for all the APA 7s and 9s that post here who use Stan's and Hal's methods? Any time a player says that they are a high B to A player or even players of A+ quality like James Roberts you and others just gloss over that evidence. My experiment cuts directly to the heart of the matter. You can have a world class stroke and still not find the right line all the time. That not finding a right line leads to inexplicable misses AND body english. So in order to eliminate ONE variable it's important to figure out how to aim in such a way as to put the aiming beyond question. THEN you can move on to the stroke and make sure that it's working right.



For the 20th time, what is holding people back the most is stroke.
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And for the 20th time this is your opinion and not based in any kind of factual knowledge. See above where people who already had world class strokes and fundamentals changed ONE THING about their game, that one thing being how they line up, and reported major improvement. And when a world class player reports major improvement then perhaps you might want to allow their testimony to count.



We've all seen those drills that are designed to improve stroke/cuing accuracy, as well as expose flaws. If a player tries those, and is not consistently getting perfect execution or results - why would they successfully execute one of those cut shots in CTE? The margin of error in their cuing and stroke is enough to miss many of these cuts. Am I or am I not right saying that? Most people cannot hit the CB exactly where needed on a consistent basis. Because of that, the CB goes in a direction they don't intent. And thus, shots are missed and positions are botched. More often than not, the intermediate player has a plenty fine line of aim and understanding of where to send the ball.
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The thing is that you are determined to make it one or the other despite saying that you aren't. You generalize a lot. On one hand you claim that MOST players can aim just fine (although you have no evidence of this) and on the other hand you claim MOST players can't hit the ball where they intend to and you also have no evidence of this. You want aiming system users to give you precise directions and the precise math why their methods work but you counter with generalizations backed by nothing but speculation.

My contention is that if aiming were NOT an issue and were SO easy as you claim then it would be not at all talked about on here. You are so quick to dismiss the experience of experienced players and marginalize their descriptions of how their games improved by virtue of learning an aiming system but at the same time you offer nothing but opinionated generalizations.

I understand your position but the evidence is not on your side. At least not on this forum.

On this forum you have MANY users who reported great improvement by learning an aiming system. SOME of those users had stroking issues to deal with as well and they reported that they found that they had to ALSO improve their stroke to use the aiming system properly. This can go back to your tool box analogy. As in when you get one tool but you can't use it until you have mastered another one. Both are important and both are the yin/yang of shot making. I can agree that improvement in one brings improvement in the other but I certainly do not agree that players are forsaking working on the stroke for the "diet pill" (as you put it) of aiming.


My advice, those stroke precision tests and drills....if a player isn't scoring very well on those with good consistency....don't worry too much about "aiming systems" yet. Definitely aim, definitely keep learning all aspects of the game. Including aim. But you've got bigger fish to fry!
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And my thought is that the fish is the same size. Intertwined. Proper aiming exposes stroke flaws in those who have stroke flaws, proper stroking reveals aiming flaws. No matter how you look at it there is no complete player without mastery of both.
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