A long comment on "aiming systems" ...

Roger Long said:
Speaking of Jerry Briesath; I asked him what he thought of CTE and he said, some people get hung up on aiming systems and never progress beyond that point. He didn't elaborate, and I didn't push the subject any further, but I've worked with Jerry and I have also talked to many people who have taken lessons from him, and CTE is apparently not one of the subjects he teaches.

So is CTE aiming as important as its pitch men have made it out to be? Well, if it is, why isn't the world's leading instructor teaching it?

Roger
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Agree Roger. I've only taken 2 lessons in my life, and one was with Jerry when I lived up in Milwaukee and was working in Madison for a time. He was fantastic to talk to, I saw him weekly in his room and finally took a lesson, he spent 2 1/2 hours with me and a few weeks later I was playing some of my best pool ever. Might still be the best I ever played, although I feel I have more knowledge now.

I feel CTE has helped my game and confidence at ball pocketing, but as much as I like it and the ease with which I adopted it, it certainly is not the only way to aim. I did pretty well before it, I just feel it's an improvement with it. I just never felt locked in like I do now, but that's just me. If you can clearly see a ghost ball, or thickness of hit, or back of the ball, or fraction, shadow, reflection, etc. and accurately make balls, then that's what's important. To me CTE is just another tool to help a player get to that point if needed.

It certainly is no substitute for stroking fundamentals, knowledge, and practice, lots of practice. When I have an off night, like I did last night (was ready to snap something at one point it was so awful), I don't blame CTE or aiming, or postion choices, or anything else. It's cueing fundamentals, plain and simple, almost every time. I was twitchy all night, just didn't feel comfortable, rushing through some shots, just didn't feel "straight" if that makes sense. Then after missing some balls, confidence goes down, etc. etc. Unfortunately this happens sometimes especially due to lack of playing time, very frustrating though. Of course I still won... :)

Scott
 
JoeyInCali

I agree but what i do when i pivot is no different than what i do shooting through the center of the cb.Im still sighting down the cue at a target.
I cannot do pro one and do it justice,to much is going on in the process for me.(not giving up on it though) Im sure other people do it and do it well.I really feel if to much is going on during the aiming process it cant hurt your chance of getting into stroke.Even though i hvnt been in stroke to many times but the times i have i really feel rhythm had the biggest play in it.
 
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Roger Long said:
Speaking of Jerry Briesath; I asked him what he thought of CTE and he said, some people get hung up on aiming systems and never progress beyond that point. He didn't elaborate, and I didn't push the subject any further, but I've worked with Jerry and I have also talked to many people who have taken lessons from him, and CTE is apparently not one of the subjects he teaches.

So is CTE aiming as important as its pitch men have made it out to be? Well, if it is, why isn't the world's leading instructor teaching it?

Roger
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Who made Jerry Briesath the world's leading instructor? Isn't this a "claim" without much evidence?

What makes a leading instructor? Please list the criteria.

And then we can use that criteria to vote on who the world's leading instructor is.

By the way here is a recent post from a guy who did in fact fact progress after learning an aiming system.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=263340

Unless of course you think he is deluded about his own experience.

I don't expect to see a list of criteria from you Roger because I don't think that you wish to create such a list for public viewing. But I am sure that you can compile such a list and my question for you to ask yourself is IF there were an instructor who fit all your criteria for being a leading instructor and that person also teaches CTE then what does that mean to you?
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
Yes, there is an irony when the experts drop out of AZB and are replaced by pseudo-experts who carpet bomb the forums with their nostrums.
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No, that's not irony, that's called tragedy. Get your ees straight. You however are neither expert nor pseudo-expert. Nuisance comes to mind. I have yet to see one single post from you in this thread that contributes to the topic with even a tiny shred of information that helps the the discussion.
 
iusedtoberich said:
lol. It certainly is refreshing to hit real balls, instead of reading AZ. Not just aiming threads, but any threads. I think a lot of us lose that perspective (I know at least I do...)
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I try to hit balls every day for a little while on my table at work. Sometimes I will spend time on just a little feather safe or some problem. When I played chess I liked to do the problems and I approach pool the same way. I like to set up situations and work them out with all the possibilities so that I know them all from the sellouts to the safest routes.

Today I wiped all the chalk off and played several racks without it.
 
duckie said:
Place a ball between the CB and OB then do the drawing
Put a ball right next to the CB such that your bridge can not be used as shown and you are jacked up shooting over the ball
Put the CB on the rail and shoot.
Have the CB and OB frozen.
Do a behind your back shot where you are looking over your shoulder at the shot.
Do a one handed shot, no bridge used.

Any system that relies on being able to see the OB directly for aiming is of limited use.

Any system that requires a certain bridge length or certain amount of "pivot" is limited in what shots can be made.

Oh how bout a carom, where you don't care about making the first ball you hit but another, wheres that drawing?

Any system that requires a TECH SUPPORT PHONE NUMBER is just to complicated.
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I want to publicly thank you for all the laughs. When you post stuff like this the immediate reaction is laughter for the pure unintended comic value in it. That you are sincere makes it that much funnier.
 
duckie said:
Place a ball between the CB and OB then do the drawing
Put a ball right next to the CB such that your bridge can not be used as shown and you are jacked up shooting over the ball
Put the CB on the rail and shoot.
Have the CB and OB frozen.
Do a behind your back shot where you are looking over your shoulder at the shot.
Do a one handed shot, no bridge used.

Any system that relies on being able to see the OB directly for aiming is of limited use.

Any system that requires a certain bridge length or certain amount of "pivot" is limited in what shots can be made.

Oh how bout a carom, where you don't care about making the first ball you hit but another, wheres that drawing?

Any system that requires a TECH SUPPORT PHONE NUMBER is just to complicated.
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Outside of the frozen balls, all can be done with CTE.

CTE doesn't dictate a bridge length.

How about a carom??????? If you think CTE isn't lights-out deadly on that front, care to meet up and gamble at a little scratch-pool?

If you and I played, you'd trip over yourself to run back to the computer to edit this post of yours. It screams ignorance.
 
JB Cases said:
No, that's not irony, that's called tragedy. Get your ees straight. You however are neither expert nor pseudo-expert.
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Since 104 postings out of the 704 postings in this thread are yours, that certainly qualifies as carpet bombing.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert on aiming systems. That's why I'd rather read the comments from the teachers/instructors like Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave or Roger Long or what the pros have to say on aiming than from the pseudo-experts like you.
 
What I know about Jerry Briesath is from an old article about him in a pool magazine. In that article it was stated that at some point he trained Johnny Archer, Nick Varner and Ewa Mataya.
He is supposed to be the first trainer to apply video recordings of his students playing which he used to discuss afterwards.
I've read some of his articles over the years.
The statement of his that is mentioned above is exactly on the same spirit of my sceptisism on aiming systems. The danger in a player's development coming from dealing too much with them, especially if they are quite "complex"..
I would be glad to learn from him..
Here is an old video of his on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpbNlnS9GFk
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
Since 104 postings out of the 704 postings in this thread are yours, that certainly qualifies as carpet bombing.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert on aiming systems. That's why I'd rather read the comments from the teachers/instructors like Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave or Roger Long or what the pros have to say on aiming than from the pseudo-experts like you.
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Really? I don't see the correlation between number of posts and information in those posts?

I have never claimed to be an expert on any system. Nor have I ever inferred it. If anything I am just a cheerleader and I will say a damn good one.

If you truly don't want to read my posts then simply put me on ignore and exercise some self-control and skip over the posts where people quote me. Personally I think that you are really in love with me and the rejection is killing you.

I think you gave Bolo Ocho/Grilled Cheese some major props in this thread though (not entirely sure about that). Since you claim to only want experts what are his credentials such that you praise him?
 
cfrandy said:
Dr Dave has studied and published more material, over many years, on aiming systems than any man alive today! Please tell everyone here what YOU have published???

Inflammatory posts like yours are exactly why the experts drop out of AZ forums!:angry:
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He is a D player. Why idolize a D player?
 
cfrandy said:
Some people just can't tell the difference between an expert on ALL aiming sytems, and a salesman who is simply trying to SELL his method of aiming on DVD. Dave is not selling anything here!
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Surely you realize the Dave is "selling", too. He has 2 or 3 products that get promoted here quite regularly.

And I don't have a problem with that. Dave contributes a lot here, and to the pool world. But I think others do, too. If any of them can get in a small plug for their product, in the context of the help they are providing, no big deal. (Not to be confused with blatant spamming.)

Some folks here seem to have a problem when certain individuals promote their products here, while others, like Dave, don't seem to attract the same venom. Perhaps it is merely the product being sold, as opposed to the actual "promoting"? Meaning anyone who tries to sell something associated with aiming seems to get the brunt of the negative attention (stan, geno) while Dave keeps on plugging merrily away, without the uproar and furor. Apparently the masses here have decided that there cannot be anything beneficial from these products, as there must be only the accepted aiming doctrine. Anyone promoting such heresy must be exposed and eliminated. Right?
 
justadub said:
Surely you realize the Dave is "selling", too. He has 2 or 3 products that get promoted here quite regularly.

And I don't have a problem with that. Dave contributes a lot here, and to the pool world. But I think others do, too. If any of them can get in a small plug for their product, in the context of the help they are providing, no big deal. (Not to be confused with blatant spamming.)

Some folks here seem to have a problem when certain individuals promote their products here, while others, like Dave, don't seem to attract the same venom. Perhaps it is merely the product being sold, as opposed to the actual "promoting"? Meaning anyone who tries to sell something associated with aiming seems to get the brunt of the negative attention (stan, geno) while Dave keeps on plugging merrily away, without the uproar and furor. Apparently the masses here have decided that there cannot be anything beneficial from these products, as there must be only the accepted aiming doctrine. Anyone promoting such heresy must be exposed and eliminated. Right?
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justadub:

I disagree with this, to a point. I think the issue with those of us that have issues with marketing, is striking a balance. Remember, the AZB forums are discussion boards. They aren't fishing ponds for marketers to cast their lines into -- and harvest fish as fast and furious as they can -- without regard to the effects it has on the pond itself.

For me (and many others, if I may be so bold to extend myself here), the question is, "what value has the marketer previously offered these boards?" How much good will and great info has that marketer / salesman "socked into the AZB bank" to offer a little wiggle room on the question as to whether a little unsolicited marketing should be overlooked? For me, Dr. Dave, Bob Jewitt, Stan Shuffett, et al. have socked a lot of good will into the AZB bank with the amount of help they've offered with no strings attached, nor any ulterior motives. (As a side note, sure, I may have an issue with Dr. Dave's "linking OCD" in his posts -- but that's not pertinent to this discussion of offering value to compensate for any product marketing.) However, there's a certain perfect aim guy, who, from Day One of his membership on these boards, bombarded these boards with both outright sales pitches, as well as not-so-cleverly disguised sales pitches e.g. "pool stories" that attempted to disguise a bait-loaded sales pitch. (Now granted, that same guy has, of late, significantly pulled the reigns on the sales pitch carpet-bombing, but he's still the best example I can offer where there's no "gray area" on a lopsided unsolicited marketing versus value-socked-into-the-AZB-bank ratio.)

I think it's pretty clear -- if you have a product you want to sell here, you have two options:

1. Sponsor AZB by purchasing an ad banner as well as a club membership (both).

2. Sock some good will into the AZB bank by participating in the discussions, help others (beyond exclusively offering your product as "help"), post questions, etc. -- in general, "participate in good will."

I hope this helps clarify,
-Sean
 
Sean, the moment I finished posting, I knew I'd be "stepping into it" with you on this issue
:D

I don't plan on detailing this thread, further away from where it's already gone. We've had this go-round before, and I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The relevant point to the discussion at hand would be this: exactly who is benefiting from all of this accursed "cte marketing"? Up until last year, there wasn't a commercial product specifically aimed (heh heh) at cte use. I don't recall anyone spamming the boards trying to sell cte lessons, even though the SPF guys mention they teach a version of it.

From my experience, the bulk of the cte discussion has been from people who aren't making a nickle from it. Stan hasn't exactly run roughshod over the forum, has he?

So explain to me how the relentless cte discussions here have to be considered "marketing"?

(For the record, Sean, I believe you and I would get along famously in person. I would love to have a drink and shoot some pool with you someday. Well, ok, I'd have a drink and rack for a while....but you get the idea!)
 
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