Could you people refrain from contaminating this otherwise good thread with your OFF topic bickering?
Thank you.
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Thank you.
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A long comment on "aiming systems" ...
- Thread starter Grilled Cheese
- Start date
Tell you what? How about you and I make a bet. If by the end of next week I don't put up an uncut video of myself running five racks of nine ball from the one ball starting with ball in hand I will leave AZB forever.
If I do put one up then you leave AZB forever.
Bet?
There are only a few people who get to see mine Joey. Nice try but I am keeping my speed to myself until I get a chance to play you another round of one-hole and get my lunch money back.
Don'tcha know that YouTube is the new way to hustle on the net. Wait until you see my new vids with my Travis Trotter Rocks shirt on.
Ahahahahaha!
I've been trying to figure out a way to invite Travis to eat lunch with me one day but I haven't been able to find out what tournaments he goes to just yet. I think it would be fun to have lunch with Travis and perhaps he might share some of the secrets of pro players with me.
I can't wait to hang with you at SBE. We're gonna have fun
Me too me too
I show my lack of talent every time I play in a touranment and it's there for the world to see. You can watch me play Feb 11-12, Feb 25-26,March 10-11 and April 19-22 IF I make the TV table
. I'm not hiding behind a screen name nor do I wish to enter a pissing contest. It's just nice to see how someone else plays as compared to the way they type.
Couple things.
All roads lead to Rome.
Bustamante crushes your theory. Here is a player who CRUSHED the straight shooting perfect form Germans when he got there. He handed out HUGE spots to bonafide world beaters and crushed them. The Germans never saw anything like it. Some guy with a wild stroke who looks like he is aiming into space when he lines up on the cue ball just tore through the German ranks like a typhoon. But Busty would often miss a seemingly easy shot presumably due to his wild looking stroke.
Conversely the Germans with their perfect form would still miss more balls.
The thing is that no aimers have EVER said that stroke and form don't matter.
Not one of them to my knowledge has said that.
None of them has ever contended that knowing how to aim means you don't have to have a good stroke.
So it's kind of a red herring to propose two example players that indicates that aimers have somehow said that aiming exists separate from execution. All we have said is that it's important to get to the right shot line so that you can then focus on execution.
What I've come to realize is that aiming and cueing go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. I don't think someone can be a great aimer without being a very good cueist and likewise, it's only a matter of time before a great cueist will become a great aimer.
Ultimately, I believe that we memorize all the different cut angles. These become seared into our shot making memory banks after shooting them over and over. Now if you have a crooked stroke, when you miss your subconscious has no clue exactly why it missed. So, that shot becomes a complete waste and it's not possible to mentally catalog that shot. For this reason, a player can struggle with particular shots for years and years. However, if you take a guy that can fire in balls from anywhere on the table and he has an absolutely perfect stroke - it would become very easy for him to memorize all these cut angles. All he would have to do is start shooting them. If he missed, he would know that he would be aiming wrong. He would shoot it again but this time a little fuller or a little thinner and off he would go.
This is very clearly what I've seen with my game. My stroke sucked and I blamed a lot of my misses on aiming errors. Now my stroke is getting better and I'm now beginning to sear in these shots that I would have been able to do years ago had I sorted out my stroke flaws to begin with.
Bottom line for me - the more I play the more the game becomes about fundamentals. Some say the game is 50% mental. I think that's non-sense. I think the game is 95% fundamentals and 5% mental. I think too many people spend too much time on the 5%.
Of course, I could be wrong since my views are constantly changing. Ask me tomorrow and I may have a different opinion.
Ultimately, I believe that we memorize all the different cut angles. These become seared into our shot making memory banks after shooting them over and over. Now if you have a crooked stroke, when you miss your subconscious has no clue exactly why it missed. So, that shot becomes a complete waste and it's not possible to mentally catalog that shot. For this reason, a player can struggle with particular shots for years and years. However, if you take a guy that can fire in balls from anywhere on the table and he has an absolutely perfect stroke - it would become very easy for him to memorize all these cut angles. All he would have to do is start shooting them. If he missed, he would know that he would be aiming wrong. He would shoot it again but this time a little fuller or a little thinner and off he would go.
This is very clearly what I've seen with my game. My stroke sucked and I blamed a lot of my misses on aiming errors. Now my stroke is getting better and I'm now beginning to sear in these shots that I would have been able to do years ago had I sorted out my stroke flaws to begin with.
Bottom line for me - the more I play the more the game becomes about fundamentals. Some say the game is 50% mental. I think that's non-sense. I think the game is 95% fundamentals and 5% mental. I think too many people spend too much time on the 5%.
Of course, I could be wrong since my views are constantly changing. Ask me tomorrow and I may have a different opinion.
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Logical fallacy to say the least. Who said Bustamante doesn't have a good stroke? That is what you're implying in this round-about statement of yours. Bustamante's stroke may look wild, but he HITS the CB exactly where he needs to. That is the measure of a good stroke. Keith McCready, who thinks his stroke looks great? I don't. But, he hits where he needs to. Now, Buddy Hall...textbook perfectly good looking stroke.
More logical fallacy.
You are trying to suggest that Bustamante has a wild stroke, the German's are straight as an arrow - but he beats them....why?....because he uses CTE? Hmmm?
Awful lot of assumptions are being made, as well as non-sequiturs.
You and neil need to get this through your heads, I never said that aimers never said that stroke and form don't matter. I am criticizing the over emphasis and attention given to aiming. And I would say that many people, given their choice of topic, probably focus on aiming to the detriment of time spent on stroke. Or at the very least, undervalue stroke when praising aiming systems. In other words, they give credit to some vague aiming system, when it was their basic aim and good stroke that got the job done. But that's just an assumption. But I make it clear that it is. Unlike you, who wants to pass your assumptions and beliefs off as facts.
I've watched F. Bustamante playing in Eurotour in good shape, years ago. He actually won the that tournament.
I just wanted to add that when you see his stroke from close it's phenomenal, you don't believe what you are looking at, especially his break stroke.
He made a couple of shots which I'm not sure they can't easily be explained, if only I could draw them..
But the main reason for my reply is not all that..
He uses a "teaspoon" grip, holding the butt with just 2 fingers, very lightly and with what seems like a lot "wrist" action, something you don't find in any istruction method.
He leaves quite a distance from his cue tip to the CB, that's something really unusual too..
However! In most of his shots he keeps his cue parallel to the table! It doesn't seem so from a distance but when you are close you don't believe in your eyes!
He explained the basis of his stroke with a main factor of constant speed, simple use of cue's weight during follow through with altering target point and spin on CB for getting to the desired shape each time..
Thought that might be interesting to share with fellow az members.
I just wanted to add that when you see his stroke from close it's phenomenal, you don't believe what you are looking at, especially his break stroke.
He made a couple of shots which I'm not sure they can't easily be explained, if only I could draw them..
But the main reason for my reply is not all that..
He uses a "teaspoon" grip, holding the butt with just 2 fingers, very lightly and with what seems like a lot "wrist" action, something you don't find in any istruction method.
He leaves quite a distance from his cue tip to the CB, that's something really unusual too..
However! In most of his shots he keeps his cue parallel to the table! It doesn't seem so from a distance but when you are close you don't believe in your eyes!
He explained the basis of his stroke with a main factor of constant speed, simple use of cue's weight during follow through with altering target point and spin on CB for getting to the desired shape each time..
Thought that might be interesting to share with fellow az members.
Great post Grilled Cheese! I agree 100 percent! The secret to great play is practice, hard work and dedication
WOW this is turning out just great! All the major players are involved to endlessly make long winded comments and fight with each other. Get the popcorn and a cold brew, I wonder what the over under on someone getting banned will be?? I thank heaven above that I am not so concerned about aiming, not nearly as much as controlling whitey... On with the arguing and please throw is some name calling also...
Well said.
I disagree slightly. I think a person can become an excellent aimer without developing a good stroke. The amateur world has many of this kind of player. However, a person would be hard pressed to have (earn) a great stroke and not learn to aim well.
Very well said. All of it. The game is mostly fundamentals. The reason *I think* a lot of players want to say it's mental is to form a kind of cop out, or excuse. Or better yet, to facilitate a delusion. That delusion being that most (not all, never said that, have to clarify these statements for all the strawman arguers in this thread) of what they need to be great is knowledge, as opposed to physical work in building a good stroke.
Why? Why would someone do that?
I *think* it's because if you compared knowledge to hard work and physical ability/talent -- most people doing that comparison would conclude that KNOWLEDGE is more ACCESSIBLE.
I can learn something in a few hours. Or in a couple of months. But I CANNOT LEARN A PERFECT STROKE IN A COUPLE OF HOURS. OR EVEN A COUPLE OF MONTHS.
Yes, *some* people are in denial, and some want the easy way out.
Stroke, stroke, stroke. Work, time, patience and dedication.
Teaspoon???? Them's fighting words. I have a video that shows that teaspoon grippers can't ever become good players in the long run because it doesn't replace hard work at the table. There is NOOOOOO magic bullet.
Now, if you had said "teacup..."
Now every time somebody embraces the positives about a lot of wrist action, somebody will load up the board about the horrors and gloom of going to non-"best practice" techniques when "simpler is always better" doctrine.
Wrist action = good for my game. YMMV. And don't try to change me. (Not you, Peter)
Freddie <~~~ misses with the best of them
It's a intriguing proposal so let's try to iron out some of the details. This needs to be on a 9' table with 4.5" pockets or tighter. The video needs to show a February 2012 time stamp. Even with a February 2012 timestamp, I am concerned that you may somehow fudge on this detail. The run attempts need to be in one inning.
As part of being a complete player, I think the run should start from the opening break. If you make the 9 on the break, the 9 goes back onto the foot spot and you can continue your attempt to run the table in one inning. Also, racks that involve making the 9 on a combination or on a carom should not count. Every shot should be called; potting balls with slop should not count. The goal should be testing your aiming skills as well as how complete a player you are.
No one is saying that you can't run a full rack now and then so it's not clear what your running just five racks in one week actually proves. Running just five racks in one week is actually setting the performance bar fairly low so I think this criteria needs to be modified somehow. There also needs to be a limit on how many attempts you get to run X racks.
I am a wee bit concerned about your sanity. Given your extreme OCD, you may go mad if you lose and then voluntarily ban yourself from AZB forever.
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At one point in my life I did so many stroke drills I thought my arm would fall off. I did the bottle, Buddy Hall's stroke trainer, stroke down the line, hit the cue ball up and down the table so it passes over the spots and between two balls........all of them.
Even with all the practice I could never get this shot down
I would dog this shot so badly that if I faced it in a game I would play it safe rather than try to shoot it. And I practiced it until I was ready to break my cue. I got REAL good at banking it to the end rail instead of trying to make it.
When Hal Houle got me to come to see him at Paradise Billiards in Denver (now Hank's Watering Hole) he asked me to set up a shot I had trouble with after he had taught me a system and I had made a few shots cleanly with it and I immediately set up this one.
First try the ball rocketed down the rail and went in. I had NEVER felt anything even close to that on this shot. NEVER.
I said that must have been an accident and set it up again. Wham, dead in the heart again. Third time the ball hung up.
I could not believe it. This shot was my nemesis and I was defeating it. I kept shooting it and kept making it or just barely missing it.
So respectfully, I disagree. I think that there are certain shots or types of shots that don't get "seared" into the brain of the average player even with a lot of repetitive practice. I think that there are some shots that a player just can't "see" consistently on their own.
I think that an aiming method that is precise takes the optical illusion or visual imperception out of it and forces the player to adopt a line that they would not go to based on what they initially see.
BUT here is the drawback.
Now when a player does have the PERFECT line then ANY steering will cause the shot to be off. I believe that learning to shoot by rote only reinforces steering because IF the aim is wrong but the ball is going then the pocketed ball is the reward that reinforces the behavior that produced that result.
So this is where the player learns if his mechanics are really any good or not, by learning to aim first.
Look at it this way. What if there were a laser line that you could place the cue on for EVERY shot. Could you run out? Probably not because there are so many parts to the stroke that it's very very difficult to do it the right way every time.
But if that laser line was just a hair off then a straight stroke would NOT allow you to make the shot. The ONLY way to make it would be to steer it in. So you would learn to steer. Only problem is that when the laser line then points to the perfect line then the steer throws it off.
So it's both. You must learn to aim first and know that you are aimed dead perfect. And you MUST develop a straight stroke through the ball. And the two have to develop together for the best results. Because otherwise introduces a lifetime of not being sure of your aim or your stroke or both. I.e. a lifetime of frustration with the cruel mistress in green.
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there wouldn't BE any over-attention given to aiming if people didn't make a big deal about whether aiming systems work or not.
It's a intriguing proposal so let's try to iron out some of the details. This needs to be on a 9' table with 4.5" pockets or tighter. The video needs to show a February 2012 time stamp. Even with a February 2012 timestamp, I am concerned that you may somehow fudge on this detail. The run attempts need to be in one inning.
As part of being a complete player, I think the run should start from the opening break. If you make the 9 on the break, the 9 goes back onto the foot spot and you can continue your attempt to run the table in one inning. Also, racks that involve making the 9 on a combination or on a carom should not count. Every shot should be called; potting balls with slop should not count. The goal should be testing your aiming skills as well as how complete a player you are.
No one is saying that you can't run a full rack now and then. So it's not clear what your running just five racks in one week actually proves. Running just five racks in one week is actually setting the performance bar fairly low so I think this criteria needs to be modified somehow. There also needs to be a limit on how many attempts you get to run X racks.
I am a wee bit concerned about your sanity. Given your extreme OCD, you may go mad if you lose and then voluntarily ban yourself from AZB forever.
do you want to bet or not? The bet was clear. yes or no? I can't of course hold you to it as you are a nobody anyway. I have much more at stake seeing as how I am well known and also conduct business through this forum.
Obviously you prefer to have me here.
Ah yes, and as always the qualifier statement comes in. Most CTE people fit that in there somewhere. But notice how it is just a line or two or a comment or two and that's it. Talk about down playing.
Sure, aiming people do say stroke is important. Well, maybe you guys are super-athletes with superb hand-eye coordination and stroke the damn cue very well, and the MISSING part of your games has been a deficiency in your ability to visualize point of aim, line of shot?
Now you have it (supposedly thanks to aiming system), why do you miss shots anymore? Why do you still dog balls?
Stroke flaw? You blamed that in your videos too. But I speak generally for all people ( don't want this to be a personal attack ). Including myself.
I don't use CTE, I've got the right line of aim - when I miss, it's for the same reason as you - stroke error. Unless you want to tell me that you missed because of bad aim, but then again - isn't CTE suppose to be fixing that for you?
Now you've got this killer aiming system. You know where to hit the OB. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that. NOW WHAT? Why do you miss balls? I guess it's time for you to now move past aiming, and get on to the hard work of building a better and more consistent stroke. That in itself shows that aiming is a smaller part of the greater equation. You JB, you know CTE now. You feel it gives you the aiming you need. Great. Now aiming is DONE. Why aren't you on the pro circuit?
You say you've done stroke training drills til your arm was about to fall off. That's fine. There's a few things to comment on that.
#1, practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect
#2, contrary to what some believe, working your ass off, being dedicated and putting in all the hard work is no guarantee of success. It only guarantees improvement....
#3, that said, there is a limit. That's called one's maximum potential. Everyone has one. And most people's max potential isn't pro-level play. Sorry, just isn't. That's what makes some people better than others. Bell curve sort of thing.
Now, I think a lot of people know what I just said. And knowing that is a bummer. It's kind of like knowing we're all going to die one day. Because of that, people infatuate themselves with ideas that facilitate the delusion that their max potential is pro-level play, they are merely being held back by things that are still in their control. As opposed to being held back by things not in their control (such as natural talent, whatever that may be). This is the idea that anyone can do anything, if they just put their mind to it.
Perhaps, but I don't think so. Some people can go a long, long way and get close. Some people can do it if they put their mind to it. But not ALL people can do it if they put their mind to it. The same way some people can, there are some people who cannot. Sorry if that sounds negative. Those who cannot, will probably never know they cannot. Because they should never accept that belief. That is surrender or giving up. They'll know when they're done playing, and look back at their peak and how good that was and what the results were. That will be the record of their best ability. That was their limit.
But what a player can do, is not waste their time on delusions and instead apply themselves in areas that they need to. Areas that will reward and pay them back.
Believe in yourself. I strongly believe that. Believe in your self. Believe that you can reach the level you want to reach. But subscribing to cop-out theories and mindset does nothing to help a person reach their max potential, whatever that may be.
I feel like I'm telling a bunch of kids that Santa Clause don't exist!
Wrong. Aiming systems are peddled like diet systems. Aiming systems get a lot of talk in a controversial sense because people are calling out what BS many of them are. People like things to be proved to them.
Aiming system people make the claims; therefore, the burden of proof is on them to prove it works.
Don't want so much talk about it? Don't make unsubstantiated claims. Instead, what we get is vague descriptions of the system. Lots of qualifying statements (excuses), footnotes and asterisks, warning labels, emphatic testimonials based on nothing concrete....
Aiming systems is a kin to the late night infomercial.
The bet that you proposed wherein you have one week to run five racks is a joke. Your asking to have one week to run five racks in unlimited attempts actually confirms that you're a duffer.
The additional criteria that I suggested are extremely fair. The goal is to test your aiming skills and how complete a player you are.