A pro organization should represent how many?

How many players should a pro organization represent?

  • 16

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 32

    Votes: 3 5.4%
  • 64

    Votes: 6 10.7%
  • 128

    Votes: 12 21.4%
  • 256

    Votes: 11 19.6%
  • 512

    Votes: 3 5.4%
  • 1028

    Votes: 2 3.6%
  • more

    Votes: 19 33.9%

  • Total voters
    56

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
An organization with multiple levels of membership and some annual dues might work as a base from which different changes could be made.

Fan(Free)
Recreational ($25.00)
Player ($50.00)
Tournament Player ($100.00)
Master (free but elected by all paying members)
Supporter ($200.00 or so)
Sponsor ($500.00 or so)
Benefactor ($1,000 or so)
Organizational member ($5,000.00)

Each level comes with added benefits and voting rights.
Web based newsletter for fans
Magazine / journal for recreational
Tournament announcements and related information for players + voting rights on industry standards.
Committee membership restricted to tournament level players.
Annual dinner and additional voting rights for Masters and above etc.

The more commitment one has to the organization the more rights one obtains within the guidelines of one man one vote.
The level of membership, except master, is decided by the person's application.

The more members at different levels the more "power" the organization has, especially if fans and others support the suggested changes made by the voting members.

Items to be voted on by dues paying members could initially be posted on a web site for input from fans to be considered by paying members.

Nominations for Master Player could be made by 25 dues paying members or 1,000+ fans. Master level player status would be awarded based on acceptance by 50% or more of the dues paying members.

Identifying 25 - 50 Master level players quickly would help to insure the continuity of the organization. It is an honor that some people would relish and it would help to establish commitment to the organization and the needed work. It would also help to attract industry sponsors.
 
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JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The only restriction on fans (and all others) would be that they must register with their real name and demographic data that could be used to "prove" that the free members are unique and good supporters of the sport. After registering some sort of screen name could be allowed. But in all instances it would be possible to say that the members do or do not support such and such an issue.

Much of the work could be done over the internet including voting by members with passwords that allow them to access ballots etc. In this way a few people could quickly(?) build an impressive organization
 
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pro9dg

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pro Organisation

Are we talking about a US Pro Player body. If you are then quite frankly the number who would fit into a World Organisation would be somewhat limited. I am not being disrespectful just being realistic.
The obvious shoe-in would be (thinking as a type) Archer, van Boening, Strickland, Morris, Williams, Davis, Bryant, Schmidt, Jones, Dueul, Daulton, Harriman, Putnam, Nevel, Robles, Hatch and Owen. Beyond that is a grey area where upping the ante to a World stage would find many payers unable to perform successfully. I have discounted the senior legends who need no introduction but the point I am making is that this is a global game now and players like Zaib Dwab can come out of a small country like Jordan and hold his own in US tournaments.
 
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unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Are we talking about a US Pro Player body. If you are then quite frankly the number who would fit into a World Organisation would be somewhat limited. I am not being disrespectful just being realistic.
The obvious shoe-in would be (thinking as a type) Archer, van Boeining, Strickland, Morris, Williams, Davis, Bryant, Schmidt, Jones, Dueul, Daulton, Harriman, Putnam, Nevel, Robles. Beyond that is a grey area where upping the ante to a World stage would find many payers unable to perform successfully. I have discounted the senior legends who need no introduction but the point I am making is that this is a global game now and players like Zaib Dwab can come out of a small country like Jordan and hold his own in US tournaments.

Yes I was thinking of a US organization for players and tournaments in the US. But I think foreigners should be welcome to join and play.
 

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From the perspective of a players’ union one could say that with a sufficient amount of apprenticeship experience the potential member is eligible for membership. Then it is only a matter of defining the type and amount of experience required. All who meet those requirements and pay their monetary dues become a member. In this type of organization the primary concern is with benefits that accrue to the lowest common denominator of the membership. I forget who but one of the union organizers when asked what it was he really wanted for his members had a simple one word answer, “more.”

The first question then is what is it that is needed, a player's union or a professional organization? When this has been decided there are many models from which to choose.

From what I have seen of the people who play pool in national tournaments, there are many players and very few professionals. Perhaps that is the place to start.

Note that membership in one type of organization does not preclude membership in the other type of organization. School teachers, nurses and in some places physicians are members of professional groups and unions simultaneously and for different reasons.

What would you call an organization established with these goals and guidelines?

1. Establish a points formula that can cover as many open added money tournaments as possible.

2. Establish sanctioning guidelines to determine which tournaments are included for awarding points to player members.

3. Include all players that wish to participate with no dues required.

4. Include all open added money tournaments that wish to participate and meet the basic sanctioning guidelines with no sanctioning fees required.
 

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think these guidelines can be perceived either way. If the intent is to improve the sport then it is the beginning of a professional organization. If the intent is to identify or specify member requirements and improve the conditions for players it could be perceived as the beginning of a players union. The real issue, to me, is how such an organization would be perceived by members and consumers.

Points 1,2, and 4 appear to be attempts to improve the sport, hence "professional" per my prior posts. Why these guidelines are established is the heart of the matter. I think that what you have given here are guidelines. The “goals” would be the why of it all.

I do not mean to be pedantic but note that a goal can be defined as “The purpose toward which an endeavor is directed.” The whole issue as previously outlined is about purpose and intent. Goals purpose and intent are not always obtainable* as these are often statements of philosophy that put others on notice as to the “why” of an organization. It tells consumers what could be expected from this group

In my thinking guideline 3 is improved with some nominal dues structure. There needs to be some form of commitment to an organization if it is to be taken seriously by consumers of the organization's statements.

- - -

* In the field of Program Planning and Evaluation there are often measurable goals and some goals that cannot be measured. I am referring to the latter in this instance. One of my specialties was in PPE and I often consulted with others assisting them in clairifying their projects that could later be evaluated for continued funding. This is similar to many of my prior professional consultations and I hope that you see it in this light. My suggestions are intended to be of assistance. They are not intended as fault finding in any way.
 
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JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Consider for a moment the fault finding that would be brought by disgruntled people who disagreed with one or more of the organization’s statements. These types of fault finding should be considered and addressed before the organization is formed. In such a planning phase you are considering the potential problems and have answers before anyone or any group can degrade the developing organization. Some people may not like what you are doing but they will have to agree that you are clear in your intent and purpose.

By short cutting potential fault finders you also attract people who are in agreement with your basic philosophy and thus have less dissent within the organization. Members and others can almost know what position you and your group will take on some issue. If not the exact position they will at least have a general idea and because your intent is clear they are more likely to be in agreement with the organization’s statements.

You will attract sponsors who are in basic agreement with your clearly stated philosophy and there is likely to be more harmony and less infighting.
 

Big Perm

1pkt 14.1 8 Banks 9 10
Silver Member
A good organization should have at least over 50% of the top 200 players.....if you have that type of support, you carry weight, can motivate things in the right direction, and have the opportunity to draw in the community as a whole....
 

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think these guidelines can be perceived either way. If the intent is to improve the sport then it is the beginning of a professional organization. If the intent is to identify or specify member requirements and improve the conditions for players it could be perceived as the beginning of a players union. The real issue, to me, is how such an organization would be perceived by members and consumers.

Points 1,2, and 4 appear to be attempts to improve the sport, hence "professional" per my prior posts. Why these guidelines are established is the heart of the matter. I think that what you have given here are guidelines. The “goals” would be the why of it all.

I do not mean to be pedantic but note that a goal can be defined as “The purpose toward which an endeavor is directed.” The whole issue as previously outlined is about purpose and intent. Goals purpose and intent are not always obtainable* as these are often statements of philosophy that put others on notice as to the “why” of an organization. It tells consumers what could be expected from this group

In my thinking guideline 3 is improved with some nominal dues structure. There needs to be some form of commitment to an organization if it is to be taken seriously by consumers of the organization's statements.

- - -

* In the field of Program Planning and Evaluation there are often measurable goals and some goals that cannot be measured. I am referring to the latter in this instance. One of my specialties was in PPE and I often consulted with others assisting them in clairifying their projects that could later be evaluated for continued funding. This is similar to many of my prior professional consultations and I hope that you see it in this light. My suggestions are intended to be of assistance. They are not intended as fault finding in any way.

The obvious main goal would be to increase the earnings of professional pool players. The sanctioning guidelines and points formulas would be our main tools to help guide the pool world towards that end. In fact, they would probably be our only tools. But these things are only goals for now...

Insuring open access for everyone could be another goal, but again the only tools for this I can see would be the sanctioning guidelines and points formulas.

I think players are plenty committed when they pay their entry fees and travel expenses.
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
...
3. Include all players that wish to participate with no dues required.

4. Include all open added money tournaments that wish to participate and meet the basic sanctioning guidelines with no sanctioning fees required.
How do you propose to fund this hypothetical organization? My own feeling is that if a person is going to get benefits from being in an organization, they should be ready to support that organization financially.

According to the money list elsewhere on AZB, fewer than 30 players make a living from tournament play.

As for, "I think the players should decide how they want to be represented," I think a brief review of the history of the PBT/PBTA will convince you that the players are not particularly good at selecting how they are represented. See also UPA.

Sorry to sound negative, but if you're actually going to do something, it's better to start with a plan that has some chance of success.
 

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How do you propose to fund this hypothetical organization? My own feeling is that if a person is going to get benefits from being in an organization, they should be ready to support that organization financially.

According to the money list elsewhere on AZB, fewer than 30 players make a living from tournament play.

As for, "I think the players should decide how they want to be represented," I think a brief review of the history of the PBT/PBTA will convince you that the players are not particularly good at selecting how they are represented. See also UPA.

Sorry to sound negative, but if you're actually going to do something, it's better to start with a plan that has some chance of success.

I never noticed the PBT/PBTA, UPA, PCA, etc, asking players how they wanted to be represented. The PBTA, like I said, seriously considered having a tour with only 16 players, and actually gave free entries to 32 players one year (not all according to ranking I might add). So I have never seen a group started from the ground up that includes the thousands of players that compete nationwide and keeps them interested and involved.

What do pro organizations usually spend a lot of money on? How much does it cost to set sanctioning guidelines and points formulas and tell a promoter their tournament is sanctioned or is not sanctioned?
 

Celtic

AZB's own 8-ball jihadist
Silver Member
This depends. Are you talking about a American profession pool player organization? An international one?

For an international tour/organization I would want to see no more then 128 players, and a rotation of players much like the PGA where the low end on the ranking list each year lose their tour card and new players enter the organization through a qualifying school/tournament. Due to costs and the need for players to make a decent living the number cannot be huge. It also helps the legitimacy of the sport and thus the advertising and viewship to make the tour an elite group of select players who represent the very best.

For a more regional yet true professional North American tour? In no way should it be more then 64 players, and be structured in much the same way as above with ranking points determining a cuttoff and qualifying tournaments being held for new players to earn their tour cards.
 

JoeW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK let’s assume that the first goal is to increase the earnings of players.

To address this goal several things are needed. As Bob points out there are not nearly enough players who make a living playing pool to form a lobbying group that would have a meaningful impact. Therefore there is a need for a larger group who could support the goals of the organization. In addition you will want to enlist the support of the industry to help establish credibility and to have influence on those who hold tournaments. Given the limited number of tournament players there is a need to include people who can support the organization in various ways depending upon their level of commitment. Hence my prior proposal for membership structure that allows for thousands of members.

When the organization has been set up you will need a way to communicate with the members by newsletter, web site, and through face to face meetings. There will be a need for committees to meet and discuss the issues of the day and this involves expenses.

Issues include the complete design of the organization, voting structure, committee structure such as membership, public relations, lobbying efforts, legal counsel, players rights and code of conduct, etc There will be a need to house the organization in some physical location and to have access to the necessary office equipment. The list goes on but I think that you get the idea. Many of these issues would have temporary solutions in the start up phase and would mature over time. The idea would be to plan for an organization that would be around for several years.

Most importantly, there will be a need to have one or more people who lobby tournament directors and other members of the industry to enlist support and help with getting others to agree with your guidelines.

In a preliminary design there is a need for a director preferably a paid position whose full or part time job is to implement the organization’s goals. The director is usually responsible for organizing meetings, getting people together and in general carrying out the business of the organization. In a small organization the director is also the lobbying agent. In larger organizations there may be other positions within the organization with various assistants employed to carry out the work.

It is not simply a matter of having a list of objectives to be accomplished. There is a need for meetings where the objectives are spelled out and agreed to. This is then passed to the lobbying agent and the newsletter editor. The person responsible for communicating with members and general public relations is also a paid or contracted position. This person or group must set up the web site (as one of the lest expensive vehicles for communication) and have the resources to produce the best quality printed information the organization can afford.

In the initial stages this work is usually performed at no cost by members committed to the organizations goals. However, this can not be a permanent solution or the quality of product produced soon deteriorates.

While many of these things can initially be accomplished on a shoestring budget it would be better to plan for long term development so as to have a significant impact on the industry. In the early stages a few thousand dollars are needed to get it off the ground. The goal would be to obtain several hundred thousand dollars within a few years to create a highly credible organization. Recognizing that several administrative personnel including player representatives, lobbying personnel and general office staff are going to be needed it would be best to plan for an organization with some sort of continuous funding.

I think that a review of other players’ organizations might be the place to begin. Baseball players, football players and similar groups have players’ organizations that could be contacted to learn how they go about conducting their business as it relates to pool players. This would be the place to begin in a small group of three to ten people who were seriously interested in forming such an organization.

Over time such an organization could build health insurance plans, retirement packages, and set aside some money for player expenses and development. It could also find ways to encourage young players in meaningful ways. Such an organization could do much with regard to improving the image of pool players.

I forget the number of people who play and or are interested in playing pool but it is quite large and a highly credible organization could substantially change the world of pool players. If your going to dream, dream big. Shoot for the stars and see what is created over the course of many years.

While many of these things sound overwhelming initially consider the Girl Scouts. They are highly organized locally and nationally. They will even sell you cookies so you too can help their cause. This is one way of saying it is a very doable sort of thing that only requires 10 - 20 dedicated people to get the ball rolling.
 
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unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OK let’s assume that the first goal is to increase the earnings of players.

To address this goal several things are needed. As Bob points out there are not nearly enough players who make a living playing pool to form a lobbying group that would have a meaningful impact. Therefore there is a need for a larger group who could support the goals of the organization. In addition you will want to enlist the support of the industry to help establish credibility and to have influence on those who hold tournaments. Given the limited number of tournament players there is a need to include people who can support the organization in various ways depending upon their level of commitment. Hence my prior proposal for membership structure that allows for thousands of members.
Exactly how I see it. The top players, alone, are not enough. We've tried that, and it has repeatedly failed. That's why I would include anyone playing in added money tournaments as a professional. They are putting up money for the chance of making money, so it is a business investment, even if not a wise one. Who cares how much they make, or what percentage it is of their income, they'd like to make more. So I would try and include all the players participating in open added money events that wish to be included, plus non playing supporters or sponsors that wish to join and or donate to the cause.
When the organization has been set up you will need a way to communicate with the members by newsletter, web site, and through face to face meetings. There will be a need for committees to meet and discuss the issues of the day and this involves expenses.
No law says we must have newsletters or face to face meetings. Some groups of players could get together at tournaments. But I think most decisions that need a lot of thought would be better discussed on the web so people have time to make informed decisions.
Issues include the complete design of the organization, voting structure, committee structure such as membership, public relations, lobbying efforts, legal counsel, players rights and code of conduct, etc There will be a need to house the organization in some physical location and to have access to the necessary office equipment. The list goes on but I think that you get the idea. Many of these issues would have temporary solutions in the start up phase and would mature over time. The idea would be to plan for an organization that would be around for several years.
Again, most decisions that need a lot of thought would be better discussed on the web so people have time to make informed decisions. The group should have no right to regulate player conduct, that has proven to be a recipe for disaster. No blacklisting tournaments or players. Let the players go where they want. And the more tournaments on a given date, the better.

There should be ways for a useful organization to raise money besides player dues.
Most importantly, there will be a need to have one or more people who lobby tournament directors and other members of the industry to enlist support and help with getting others to agree with your guidelines.

In a preliminary design there is a need for a director preferably a paid position whose full or part time job is to implement the organization’s goals. The director is usually responsible for organizing meetings, getting people together and in general carrying out the business of the organization. In a small organization the director is also the lobbying agent. In larger organizations there may be other positions within the organization with various assistants employed to carry out the work.
If we have a good workable system that gives value to tournament directors and players, they will come to us. For the most part, I think our guidelines should be as broad as possible to let promoters run their tournaments the way they want. Of course they would have to at least mention some added money though, lol.
It is not simply a matter of having a list of objectives to be accomplished. There is a need for meetings where the objectives are spelled out and agreed to. This is then passed to the lobbying agent and the newsletter editor. The person responsible for communicating with members and general public relations is also a paid or contracted position. This person or group must set up the web site (as one of the lest expensive vehicles for communication) and have the resources to produce the best quality printed information the organization can afford.

In the initial stages this work is usually performed at no cost by members committed to the organizations goals. However, this can not be a permanent solution or the quality of product produced soon deteriorates.
The way I see it is most of the decisions must be made before anyone is going to join anyway. So if it can be started with a shoestring budget, there shouldn't be much problem after it is established.
While many of these things can initially be accomplished on a shoestring budget it would be better to plan for long term development so as to have a significant impact on the industry. In the early stages a few thousand dollars are needed to get it off the ground. The goal would be to obtain several hundred thousand dollars within a few years to create a highly credible organization. Recognizing that several administrative personnel including player representatives, lobbying personnel and general office staff are going to be needed it would be best to plan for an organization with some sort of continuous funding.
Several hundred thousand?????? Player representative? Volunteer. Lobbying personel? No. Office staff? To the minimum.
Tournament directors and players could be asked to do some of their own data entry work if they want sanctioning and points.
I think that a review of other players’ organizations might be the place to begin. Baseball players, football players and similar groups have players’ organizations that could be contacted to learn how they go about conducting their business as it relates to pool players. This would be the place to begin in a small group of three to ten people who were seriously interested in forming such an organization.
I think only individual sports are going to be much help. Good luck in finding any major one not corporate owned, which is one reason I want to see pool players take control of their sport.
Over time such an organization could build health insurance plans, retirement packages, and set aside some money for player expenses and development. It could also find ways to encourage young players in meaningful ways. Such an organization could do much with regard to improving the image of pool players.
A player's organization should keep to the very basics, imo. Get more money to the players, let them decide what they will do with it. That will improve the image of pool plenty and encourage young players.
I forget the number of people who play and or are interested in playing pool but it is quite large and a highly credible organization could substantially change the world of pool players. If your going to dream, dream big. Shoot for the stars and see what is created over the course of many years.

While many of these things sound overwhelming initially consider the Girl Scouts. They are highly organized locally and nationally. They will even sell you cookies so you too can help their cause. This is one way of saying it is a very doable sort of thing that only requires 10 - 20 dedicated people to get the ball rolling.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I never noticed the PBT/PBTA, UPA, PCA, etc, asking players how they wanted to be represented. ...
What do pro organizations usually spend a lot of money on? ...
My understanding is that the members of the PBTA elected their board and chose their Executive Director. The membership was limited to a hundred or so but I think it included nearly everyone who played regularly in major tournaments.

As for costs, I think the largest one would be proactively developing a tour. Others would include creating and maintaining a website, keeping the members informed, increasing membership, an office (even if it is just a desk in someone's basement), etc. If the organization does nothing, it will cost nothing. If it actually does things, those things will cost money. Or, you can try to find hard-working volunteers who will burn out after a few months and the organization will evaporate.
 

unknownpro

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My understanding is that the members of the PBTA elected their board and chose their Executive Director. The membership was limited to a hundred or so but I think it included nearly everyone who played regularly in major tournaments.

As for costs, I think the largest one would be proactively developing a tour. Others would include creating and maintaining a website, keeping the members informed, increasing membership, an office (even if it is just a desk in someone's basement), etc. If the organization does nothing, it will cost nothing. If it actually does things, those things will cost money. Or, you can try to find hard-working volunteers who will burn out after a few months and the organization will evaporate.

Running a their own tour is something I don't think a player's organization should attempt, because I don't think tournament opportunities should be unduely limited. I think a points formula should be in place that gives more points for every extra dollar added to the prize fund, regardless of who puts the tournament on. More money equals more points, with maybe a few other things factored in. I don't see the value in having any particular limits.

I don't think a $25,000 dollar added tournament with a $500 entry fee that lasts a week and sends half the players home with nothing is any more professional than a $2500 added tournament with a $50 entry fee played on a weekend in a pool room. Especially if there are more than 10 times as many of the latter, many within driving distance, and the former are plane rides and hotel bills away.

I say there are several flaws in the BCA points system and the points system should cover all added money tournaments that wish to be involved, and all the players that want to participate. Why should players be limited to one tournament on one date? How does that benefit the players? Why should a player care how many top pros are in the field for sanctioning and points?

There may be only 30 players on the BCA list making a living, but there are a lot more players out there subject to drill any one of those 30 at any given time. Calling those players amateurs might be stretching the definition.
 
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sammi sam

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bump to my vote, as many as we can!!

I think dont put too many limits for pool players is the best idea, we cant guarantee Earl win everyday, everybody have chace participate, it will create the market and players through countries.

Market, Tournament and Organisation- it make a chain side by side then plus donation structure. It will be great.

sammi sam
Play Cue: DP
Break Cue: Falcon
Case: TAD 2/4
Collection: Bert scharger
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
So, what pool discipline is going to be supported? I mean, there's only 9ball, 8ball, one pocket, straight, golf, snooker, cut throat......

Limiting to just one or two is also gonna limit those that are willing to join in.
 

sammi sam

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Indeed, discipline is the one of important issue.

It can be done by rules of punshinment or rewarding.

I only talk the pool games, it's not other sports.

It's an idea, not for argue, cause I love pool.

cheers
 

ajrack

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just a Sample - Pro Snooker

Professional snooker players can play on the World Snooker main tour ranking circuit. Ranking points, earned by players through their performances over the previous two seasons, determine the current world ranking.
A player's ranking determines what level of qualification they require for ranking tournaments. The elite of professional snooker is generally regarded as the "Top 16" ranking players, who are not required to pre-qualify for any of the tournaments.
This tour contains 96 players - the top 64 from the previous two seasons, the 8 highest one-year point scorers who are not in the top 64, the top 8 from the previous season's Pontin's International Open Series (PIOS), and various regional, junior and amateur champions.
 
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