A proof without words: Why elevating a cue slightly may increase draw:

There is definitely a down angle on the Massey shot. I don't know if he does that to create more draw, though - I suspect he does it to keep from scooping under the ball and launching it off the table, which is more likely with a level very low hit.
 
Philthepockets said:
The bed of the table will shorten the follow through, with a level cue I can accelerate through the ball.
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This is only an issue if you try to "brake" your stroke to avoid hitting the table. If you don't change your stroke, hitting the bed has no effect on how you hit the CB; it's long gone by then.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
This is only an issue if you try to "brake" your stroke to avoid hitting the table. If you don't change your stroke, hitting the bed has no effect on how you hit the CB; it's long gone by then.

pj
chgo
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So your saying no amount of follow through or acceleration through the ball will effect the amount of spin ?
That's certainly not the way the mechanics feel to me.
 
Philthepockets said:
So your saying no amount of follow through or acceleration through the ball will effect the amount of spin ?
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That's what I'm saying - unless the pre-impact part of your stroke changes.

Followthrough and "accelerating through the ball" are techniques for getting the best stroke speed while keeping your stroke straight up to the moment of impact. After that the cue ball is gone too quickly for your stroke to have any special effect.

That's certainly not the way the mechanics feel to me.
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How things feel is often an unreliable indicator of what actually happens.

pj
chgo
 
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DoubleD said:
The follow through and acceleration have nothing to do with the spin.

First, we are taught to hit with a 90deg elbow, which in the pendulum is where there is zero acceleration.

Second, the only reason to follow through more than about 1/2" is because you will not be using muscles to try to stop motion. It is about the fluidity of your body and lack of ability to not remain fluid/accurate that forces the follow-through.

For instance, watch a pitcher. The pitcher releases the ball well before his arm stops moving, but surely he isn't still accelerating his arm--that would just be wasted effort, correct?

dld
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There is a big difference between accelerating and releasing a baseball and striking a cueball. The longer the follow through while accelerating and the looseness of the grip allow for slightly longer tip to ball contact, more reaction.
 
AfghanBilliards said:
Dr. Dave says the following on his site. "...The more you elevate the cue, the less spin the CB will have when it gets to the OB, for a given tip offset and cue speed." Preceeded by justification.
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If people want to see the full context and several articles with numerous illustrations and examples, see:

Also, more info, advice, articles, and video demos concerning all sorts of draw shots can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
 
jay helfert said:
Actually the maximum draw shots made by trick shot artists like Mike Massey are done with the cue elevated at a near ninety degree angle to the table. They shoot straight down on the cue ball, hitting the back half of the ball. It's a full force total masse shot (I don't know another name for it).
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This is called a piqué shot. When there is a cut angle, elevation helps create quick draw.

jay helfert said:
My own personal opinion after hitting about a million draw shots, that if I am shooting straight at an object ball, I will get maximum effect by keeping my cue level and hitting low on the cue ball and following through. But what do I know. I'm not a physicist, I just play the game. :wink:
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FYI, the physics of draw shots agrees with you. :eek:

Regards,
Dave
 
Bob Callahan said:
dr_dave said:
FYI, other examples of power draw shots, including one with Mike containing super-slow-motion video, can be found here:
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Thanks. Does his stick look level to you at the time of impact?
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I think his cue is as level as is possible without risking smashing his knuckles on the rail. In other words, he does not elevate the cue beyond what is required for the shot. Additional cue elevation does not help a power draw shot; although, it is required for a quick draw shot.

Regards,
Dave
 
Philthepockets:
The longer the follow through while accelerating and the looseness of the grip allow for slightly longer tip to ball contact, more reaction.
Click to expand...
Stroke and grip can't increase tip/ball contact time; the tip "bounces off" the CB on impact and your fleshy hand can't stop it no matter how tight your grip or how much your stroke is accelerating.

Even if you could increase tip/ball contact time this way, the effect on CB spin would be tiny - essentially the same as if you hit the CB a tiny bit farther from center (because the tip would be in contact while the CB rotates a tiny bit farther).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Stroke and grip can't increase tip/ball contact time; the tip "bounces off" the CB on impact and your fleshy hand can't stop it no matter how tight your grip or how much your stroke is accelerating.

Even if you could increase tip/ball contact time this way, the effect on CB spin would be tiny - essentially the same as if you hit the CB a tiny bit farther from center (because the tip would be in contact while the CB rotates a tiny bit farther).
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Good answers! I agree. For more info, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
A really good question to have an answer for is: At what angle is the rotational speed maximized? It should be easy to construct a spring-loaded mechanical "cue" with an angle indicator. Unfortunately, I'm climbing rocks and shooting pool, with no lab access for now....:grin-square:
 
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Bob Callahan said:
A really good question to have an answer for is: At what angle is the rotational speed maximized? It should be easy to construct a spring-loaded mechanical "cue" with an angle indicator. Unfortunately I'm climbing rocks and shooting pool, with no lab access for now....:grin-square:
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I think the answer to almost any possible question involving draw can be found here:

I think the specific answer to your question for a given cue speed is:
- rotational speed just after tip impact is maximum with a level cue (no elevation) with the tip contact point at the miscue limit.
- rotational speed at object-ball impact is maximum for a level cue with a tip offset slightly above the miscue limit. For more info, see my April '09 BD article.
- for maximum rotational speed as compared to forward speed (e.g., with pique and quick draw shots), the more elevation ... the better.

Regards,
Dave
 
Philthepockets said:
There is a big difference between accelerating and releasing a baseball and striking a cueball.


The longer the follow through while accelerating and the looseness of the grip allow for slightly longer tip to ball contact, more reaction.
Click to expand...

Not true........
1/1000 second
randyg
 
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