Here is a good example of drawing the cue ball.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okXbAMaJSGE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okXbAMaJSGE&feature=related
A proof without words: Why elevating a cue slightly may increase draw:
- Thread starter Bob Callahan
- Start date
No matter what the angle of the cue it can't successfully hit the CB farther from center than the miscue limit, which is at least 14 mm above the table for a truly level cue. Most cue tips are this width or less, meaning most cue tips can reach the miscue limit even when level. So an elevated cue can't really increase the moment arm for a successful hit (i.e., without miscueing).
pj
chgo
Actually, cue elevation is a red herring here - there is only a longer lever arm when you hit farther from centerball. Elevating the cue doesn't allow you to hit farther from center (see my explanation in the post above).
pj
chgo
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Yes, raising the elbow (elevating the butt) during the back stroke and then dropping it (dropping the butt) during the forward stroke involves the shoulder muscles, adding power to the stroke - that's the technique used by power breakers. But the cue is level again at the moment of impact with the CB, not elevated in the sense of this thread.
pj
chgo
A proof without words
When they make the shot you are talking about it seems like most of the forward motion is already off the cue ball before it hits the object ball or is that incorrect?
When they make the shot you are talking about it seems like most of the forward motion is already off the cue ball before it hits the object ball or is that incorrect?
Since everybody who has posted in this thread or read it probably has access to a pool table, here's sort of an obvious question:
Since reading this thread, have you actually tried a draw shot with your normal stroke, and then again with slightly more than your usual elevation?
(Assuming you usually use a fairly level stroke.)
If you did, what happened?
I know it's not exactly scientific, but it ought to be interesting....
Since reading this thread, have you actually tried a draw shot with your normal stroke, and then again with slightly more than your usual elevation?
(Assuming you usually use a fairly level stroke.)
If you did, what happened?
I know it's not exactly scientific, but it ought to be interesting....
Shooting both shots as close to the same speed as possible I get more draw out of the level stroke than I do with a slight elevation over normal.
Think about how the balls are given energy via the cue stick. If there is an incline to the cue then your shooting the CB into the table bed as opposed to a level stroke and parallel energy delivery with the surface of the table.
When the CB bounces on the table bed from the inclined stroke no matter how slight it is losing its energy which is being absorbed by the bed of the table.
So knowing that the most efficient way to deliver energy to the CB is with a level stroke then you know for sure that an inclined stroke of equal speed will produce less action on the draw.
Shooting inclined adds another level of resistance to the balls movement, which is why when your inclined you have to shoot the shot somewhat harder than you would have had to if you were able to shoot the draw with a level stroke.
-Grey GHost-
In some weird way, leaving the felt would actually improve retention of backspin. The kinetic friction between the CB and felt is a BIG killer of draw. It scrubs off backspin, no? That's the fundamental reason it is easier to perform a 8' long (CB to OB) draw on new, slick felt versus old, sticky (dirty) felt.
As mentioned earlier, the increase in normal forces (increasing static friction) between the CB & felt (with an elevated cue) helps deliver more backspin into the CB.
The downside of the elevated cue technique is the obvious tendency to swerve/masse if hit off-center. We are trading accuracy for greater backspin...not always the best tactic.
That's a misleading way to say it.
We get more RPMs per foot of CB travel with an elevated cue, but we also get less forward speed - the net result is less draw distance. The advantage isn't in the overall amount of draw we get but in how "sharply" we can draw the CB (at a sharper angle when cutting the OB, or while moving the OB a shorter distance).
pj
chgo
The posts by Patrick in this thread are some of the reasons why we need him in this forum. Patrick has great skill at discerning what is genuinely happensing on these shots as well as keen ability to articulate his observations.
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I would have to add another reason to your two reasons for the loss of accuracy while elevating the cue and that would be the hopping of the cue ball. While the inaccuracy may not be noticeable on straight in shots, on many cut shots that hopping action can make you miss the proper contact point.
Still, with all of this in mind, I and many others will still elevate their cue for draw, sometimes not even know why we do it or why we miss. lol
It's fun to know why we do the things we do and God help us if we learn something new. :grin:
(Would love to get a pool lesson from Patrick) :canoodle:
you should see the rotation on my brain brother lmfao....my heads spinnin
I honestly think we are still missing a few pieces of the puzzle. I know your not wrong....but I'm pretty sure I'm not either lol.
THEORY:
Ok when you elevate for the draw the CB leaves the surface of the table for an arbitrary amount of time and distance. It makes sense that some of the initial energy transfered to the CB from the cuestick is going to be lost to the surface of the table since the initial VELOCITY is not due forward and parallel with the table surface, the initial velocity is DOWN into the table at whatever particular angle you were holding the cue. B/c you lose some of that energy right at the initiation of the shot, its safe to say that you must apply an excess amount to compensate what is lost/absorbed by the table prior to the CB's velocity shifting forward and parallel to the playing surface.
Also the CB's forward speed of travel will be lessened when compared to that of a level stroke of equal speed. B/c the CB takes longer to traverse the distance any benefit of spin retention gained in the short moment that the CB was airborne will be lost because of the RPM have to be maintained not for a farther distance but for a longer amount of time.
When you stroke level the initial velocity of the CB will be forward and parallel with the playing surface. B/c of this its safe to say that the stoke of similar speed with a level cue would cause the CB to get to its destination FASTER b/c its velocity was not ANGULAR it was LINEAR.
The quicker the CB traveles the gap the less energy it loses in regards to friction slowing backspin. Its traveling more efficiently.
Now I want to thank you for bringing this up b/c I believe I may have just stumbled upon the answer to why it works like it does and why we are both possibly kinda right.
What makes the Draw "travel" whatever particular distance you choose has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SPEED OF THE CB.
The distance your draw shot traveles is completely reliant on the QUANTITY OF ROTATIONS IT MAKES WHILE CROSSING THE DISTANCE TO THE OB CONTACT POINT.
Now you can't say its a base of RPM (rotation/min) IMOP....because time is arbitrary for us....its DISTANCE that matters!
So IMOP it would need to be a quantity of R/D (Rotations over distance)
There are only two ways to attain a draw shot
1)Level Stroke that is ACCELERATING through the CB
-if you don't accelerate through the CB it will know you are about to hit it and will just stumble forward. The stick can by no means push the CB and attain a draw, the stick must be accelerating through so that the CB is caught off guard and its mass along with gravity/friction keep the CB in place just long enough so the tip of the cue and make contact and initiate ROTATION B/F forward momentum is produced. Its not about power its about quickness of action (ACCELERATION) as when shooting parallel to the table surface b/c you have to literally make the CB freeze inplace and induce the backspin before it takes off. If it took off b/f rotation started there would be more energy in the forward momentum than rotational energy and the draw would not work. (this is what happens when people bunt, and decelerate and they just push the CB instead of getting the draw)
2)INCLINED STROKE
-when shooting the draw with an inclined stroke the playing surface acts like a trap or block in regards to the forward movement of the CB. Because the velocity/momentum of the shot was delivered INTO the surface of the table and not parallel with it, the time it takes for FORWARD/LINEAR PROGRESSION to occur is lengthened which gives the CB the ability to begin its spin sooner and lengthen tip to CB contact time. That split second of extra immobilization of forward/linear CB travel that you get over the level stroke lets the CB attain more R/D (call it RPM i don't really care lol).
The draw is actuated by the acceleration of the cue on a level stroke which is greater than the momentum given to the CB, on the elevated stroke the forward momentum is reduced via the table bed letting the tip snap whip the CB inplace b/f it takes off thus creating more Rotations over the distance covered.
The physics change completely for each shot, elevated since the table is helping create more backspin the draw is not as reliant on having a pure stroke since its backed up by the slate bed. Level the stroke must be pure as its doing the work basically all alone.
Based off that I would have to say that NO elevating the cue does not create more draw....WHY YOU ASK?
Because you have to shoot the shot with more power.
Because if your going to compare the capabilities of two differient things trying to accomplish the same thing then there must be a CONSTANT!
THE CONSTANT IN THE EXPERIMENT IS THE POWER/SPEED/ACCELERATION (whatever you like to call it) of the cue stick.
If a stronger stroke is needed to accomplish the same goal then the extra rotations you got over the distance would not occur with a stroke that was delivered at the same speed as the level stroke.
Elevating the cue gives you the ability to apply more power towards the reverse rotation of the CB on its horizontal axis, but lessens the ability of the CB to move forward.
In my uhhm "Professional" opinion lol that disqualifies the elevated stroke from the competition. B/c it lost linear momentum to attain that spin, basically leaving the two shots equal at best if you want to be nice to the elevated stroke.
Level stroke wins by default!
suckers!!!!
:grin::wink:
-Grey Ghost-
I honestly think we are still missing a few pieces of the puzzle. I know your not wrong....but I'm pretty sure I'm not either lol.
THEORY:
Ok when you elevate for the draw the CB leaves the surface of the table for an arbitrary amount of time and distance. It makes sense that some of the initial energy transfered to the CB from the cuestick is going to be lost to the surface of the table since the initial VELOCITY is not due forward and parallel with the table surface, the initial velocity is DOWN into the table at whatever particular angle you were holding the cue. B/c you lose some of that energy right at the initiation of the shot, its safe to say that you must apply an excess amount to compensate what is lost/absorbed by the table prior to the CB's velocity shifting forward and parallel to the playing surface.
Also the CB's forward speed of travel will be lessened when compared to that of a level stroke of equal speed. B/c the CB takes longer to traverse the distance any benefit of spin retention gained in the short moment that the CB was airborne will be lost because of the RPM have to be maintained not for a farther distance but for a longer amount of time.
When you stroke level the initial velocity of the CB will be forward and parallel with the playing surface. B/c of this its safe to say that the stoke of similar speed with a level cue would cause the CB to get to its destination FASTER b/c its velocity was not ANGULAR it was LINEAR.
The quicker the CB traveles the gap the less energy it loses in regards to friction slowing backspin. Its traveling more efficiently.
Now I want to thank you for bringing this up b/c I believe I may have just stumbled upon the answer to why it works like it does and why we are both possibly kinda right.
What makes the Draw "travel" whatever particular distance you choose has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SPEED OF THE CB.
The distance your draw shot traveles is completely reliant on the QUANTITY OF ROTATIONS IT MAKES WHILE CROSSING THE DISTANCE TO THE OB CONTACT POINT.
Now you can't say its a base of RPM (rotation/min) IMOP....because time is arbitrary for us....its DISTANCE that matters!
So IMOP it would need to be a quantity of R/D (Rotations over distance)
There are only two ways to attain a draw shot
1)Level Stroke that is ACCELERATING through the CB
-if you don't accelerate through the CB it will know you are about to hit it and will just stumble forward. The stick can by no means push the CB and attain a draw, the stick must be accelerating through so that the CB is caught off guard and its mass along with gravity/friction keep the CB in place just long enough so the tip of the cue and make contact and initiate ROTATION B/F forward momentum is produced. Its not about power its about quickness of action (ACCELERATION) as when shooting parallel to the table surface b/c you have to literally make the CB freeze inplace and induce the backspin before it takes off. If it took off b/f rotation started there would be more energy in the forward momentum than rotational energy and the draw would not work. (this is what happens when people bunt, and decelerate and they just push the CB instead of getting the draw)
2)INCLINED STROKE
-when shooting the draw with an inclined stroke the playing surface acts like a trap or block in regards to the forward movement of the CB. Because the velocity/momentum of the shot was delivered INTO the surface of the table and not parallel with it, the time it takes for FORWARD/LINEAR PROGRESSION to occur is lengthened which gives the CB the ability to begin its spin sooner and lengthen tip to CB contact time. That split second of extra immobilization of forward/linear CB travel that you get over the level stroke lets the CB attain more R/D (call it RPM i don't really care lol).
The draw is actuated by the acceleration of the cue on a level stroke which is greater than the momentum given to the CB, on the elevated stroke the forward momentum is reduced via the table bed letting the tip snap whip the CB inplace b/f it takes off thus creating more Rotations over the distance covered.
The physics change completely for each shot, elevated since the table is helping create more backspin the draw is not as reliant on having a pure stroke since its backed up by the slate bed. Level the stroke must be pure as its doing the work basically all alone.
Based off that I would have to say that NO elevating the cue does not create more draw....WHY YOU ASK?
Because you have to shoot the shot with more power.
Because if your going to compare the capabilities of two differient things trying to accomplish the same thing then there must be a CONSTANT!
THE CONSTANT IN THE EXPERIMENT IS THE POWER/SPEED/ACCELERATION (whatever you like to call it) of the cue stick.
If a stronger stroke is needed to accomplish the same goal then the extra rotations you got over the distance would not occur with a stroke that was delivered at the same speed as the level stroke.
Elevating the cue gives you the ability to apply more power towards the reverse rotation of the CB on its horizontal axis, but lessens the ability of the CB to move forward.
In my uhhm "Professional" opinion lol that disqualifies the elevated stroke from the competition. B/c it lost linear momentum to attain that spin, basically leaving the two shots equal at best if you want to be nice to the elevated stroke.
Level stroke wins by default!
suckers!!!!
:grin::wink:-Grey Ghost-
FYI, I have some good examples of shots where this is required in Diagram 2 of my July '09 BD article.
Regards,
Dave
Good point. FYI, I have a good video demo of this effect here, applied to jump shots (which people often over cut):
Regards,
Dave
FYI, my analysis (see my July '09 BD article and TP B.10) shows that you always get less spin (and draw distance) with more cue elevation, regardless of where the CB bounces (relative to the OB) or how many times it bounces (for a given cue speed and tip offset).
Now, as some people have pointed out, sometimes cue elevation is required to clear a cushion or an obstacle ball, or to avoid a double hit.
Also, as you and others have pointed out, cue elevation is required for quick draw, where you need a higher spin-to-speed ratio.
However, for normal draw shots, where cue elevation and quick draw are not required, cue elevation does not help (unless the biomechanics of the elevation somehow enables more cue speed, for a given tip offset).
Regards,
Dave
I wonder how many of those who support the superiority of the inclined cue draw shot also happen to be elbow droppers.
Elbow dropping tends to raise the tip impact point on the CB. If you start out with a downward orientation of the cue, and then drop your elbow a bit, your cue will level out some and you can generate some good draw, as you will still likely strike the CB below center. If you start out aiming with a level cue and drop your elbow, you hit upwards on the cue ball and end up with weak (if any) draw. This makes you think the downward shot is superior, when it is really just compensation for a stroke flaw.
Not very scientific, but I think it is why a lot of people develop into downward hitters for draw shots.
Elbow dropping tends to raise the tip impact point on the CB. If you start out with a downward orientation of the cue, and then drop your elbow a bit, your cue will level out some and you can generate some good draw, as you will still likely strike the CB below center. If you start out aiming with a level cue and drop your elbow, you hit upwards on the cue ball and end up with weak (if any) draw. This makes you think the downward shot is superior, when it is really just compensation for a stroke flaw.
Not very scientific, but I think it is why a lot of people develop into downward hitters for draw shots.
They may also be trying to compensate for fear of hitting too low and jumping the ball so they aim higher and shoot down. For a really good power draw you have to be confident striking that low or on someone elses cloth 