A Question for 14.1 Historians

StraightPoolIU

StraightPoolIU

Brent
Silver Member
Since I consider myself a little bit of a pool history buff here is a question for all of you straight pool historians out there. What brought about the end of the standard 5'x10' table? I remember when I read Willie's Game that he talked about the standard race being to 125, and when the table size changed that's when the standard became 150. I just don't remember when the change occured or why. I've had the pleasure of playing 14.1 on a converted 5x10 snooker table...an interesting experience to say the least.
 
StraightPoolIU said:
Since I consider myself a little bit of a pool history buff here is a question for all of you straight pool historians out there. What brought about the end of the standard 5'x10' table? I remember when I read Willie's Game that he talked about the standard race being to 125, and when the table size changed that's when the standard became 150. I just don't remember when the change occured or why. I've had the pleasure of playing 14.1 on a converted 5x10 snooker table...an interesting experience to say the least.
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They started using 4 1/2' x 9' tables in the World Championships in 1950. I'm not sure exactly why they did that but I've heard that 9 footers were becoming more common in poolrooms because room owners could fit more tables that way.

It would be interesting to see a tournament now using 5 x 10's and see how todays players would fare.

Bobby
 
I have no idea the answer to that question, but I sure would love to play on a 5x10. I think a big part of the reason Mosconi and other greats of that era were so unconscious at pocketing balls on smaller tables was because of all the time on the 5x10s.
 
Takumi4G63 said:
I have no idea the answer to that question, but I sure would love to play on a 5x10. I think a big part of the reason Mosconi and other greats of that era were so unconscious at pocketing balls on smaller tables was because of all the time on the 5x10s.
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Good point, AND for top flight players the extra room on a 5x10 is a good thing....less chance of getting tied up. Think of playing 14.1 on a bar table.

Gerry
 
Good Point Regarding Table Size

Gerry said:
Good point, AND for top flight players the extra room on a 5x10 is a good thing....less chance of getting tied up. Think of playing 14.1 on a bar table.

Gerry[/QUOTE


Gerry-An old friend of mine here in town has a 4 x 8 Pro table with 4 1/4" pockets. Runs on any consequence on that table requires precision cueball control. It absolutely makes it necessary to keep knocking balls off the rack into the open rather than opening them up real wide.

Keith
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Robertduke said:
Whats the High Run on a 5 by 10 ? Ummm..?
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309 by Irving Crane. I believe that to be a far more difficult feat than Mosconi's 526 on a 4 x 8. The record will never be broken.

Doc
 
I don't know if this is true, or where I heard it (long time ago) but I heard that they reduced the table size because Irving Crane (I think?) was so tall, he had a big advantage over other people on a 5x10. He could reach all the shots when they couldn't. Has anyone else heard something like this?

Hopefully I'm not propagating any bad information here.:)
 
in all my years of going into every pool room i could find, even after i stopped playing if i saw a pool room i'd go in just to see what i walked away from and in all those spots I only ever seen a 5X10 table once just outside Fresno at Beb(?) Billiards, bob beb's room, he made Rebco Tables. In his pool room he had alot of antique tables for sale and one of them was a proper 5X10 not a snooker table with converted rails that were too low or un-even saw a few of those, I had only been playing a year or two at the time but I did play on that 5X10 and wow it was tough, later on as I improved i'm sure it would have been easier. There is alot less traffic jams but the smaller target makes the 10' table tougher than a 9' any day.
 
This happens regularly, a lot of times is someone is out of line on the break shot, they play safe so the ball goes on the foot spot. I always ask the player if they want a rerack, and always request it if I am shooting.
 
Fatboy said:
in all my years of going into every pool room i could find, even after i stopped playing if i saw a pool room i'd go in just to see what i walked away from and in all those spots I only ever seen a 5X10 table once just outside Fresno at Beb(?) Billiards, bob beb's room, he made Rebco Tables. In his pool room he had alot of antique tables for sale and one of them was a proper 5X10 not a snooker table with converted rails that were too low or un-even saw a few of those, I had only been playing a year or two at the time but I did play on that 5X10 and wow it was tough, later on as I improved i'm sure it would have been easier. There is alot less traffic jams but the smaller target makes the 10' table tougher than a 9' any day.
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smaller target?......were the pockets tight on the one you played on, or does say a 4-3/4" pocket appear to be tighter because of the bigger table?

Gerry
 
Gerry said:
Good point, AND for top flight players the extra room on a 5x10 is a good thing....less chance of getting tied up. Think of playing 14.1 on a bar table.

Gerry
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Gerry,
I'm going to have to disagree with you on the relative ease of the tables. Every top 14.1 player I have asked, or seen quoted in print, has always said that the 5 x 10 is more difficult. And almost without exception, their high runs are higher, the smaller the table.

See Willie Mosconi's statement at the Valley Forge taping about how playing on the 9 - footers with bucket pockets is like playing on a toy table compared to the 10-footers, and how he was prouder of a 300 ball run on a 10 footer than a 526 on a smaller table.

I suspect that the notion that the congestion factor outweighs the ease of shotmaking is an argument brought up by bar table afficionado's who may be a little overly sensitive about the merits (?or liabilities?) of their chosen table. The specialists at 14.1 don't fear any congestion (moving around and through it is their area of expertise). The smaller playing area allows more opportunities for cluster breaking, more and easier insurance balls, wider variety of viable break shots, easier banks/caroms/combo's, and easier pocketing - I see little drawback to the congestion for a highly skilled player. I can see a LOT of drawbacks to the tight 10 footer.
 
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yea Willie, the 8' tables are actually perfect for me because I'm a "Wilt Chaimberlainesque" 5'6" tall! :)

but I have played almost exclusively on 9'ers and find they are the best all around IMO. Also, If willie sais so......it's gospel

Mosconi that is;)

Gerry
 
arsenius said:
I don't know if this is true, or where I heard it (long time ago) but I heard that they reduced the table size because Irving Crane (I think?) was so tall, he had a big advantage over other people on a 5x10. He could reach all the shots when they couldn't. Has anyone else heard something like this?

Hopefully I'm not propagating any bad information here.:)
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I don't remember where, but I read somewhere that a portion of the country was using 5X10 tables and another portion of the country was using 8X10 tables. To make things more uniform for tournaments, the two sides compromised and settled on the 4 1/2X10 tables.

I have no idea if this is true, but it sounds logical.
 
In my experience the biggest differences I've noticed when playing 14.1 on different sized tables has everything to do with shotmaking. The difference in cluster management was neglible for me when playing on the 5x10 or my own 4x8 at home, but the hard part was on the 5x10 you know you had to play position a lot closer to the key ball and break ball. Also, those shots up table to get out of jam are a lot more interesting on a 5x10 which I've heard Dallas West attest to in an Accu-stats video.
 
Gerry said:
yea Willie, the 8' tables are actually perfect for me because I'm a "Wilt Chaimberlainesque" 5'6" tall! :)
Also, If willie sais so......it's gospel

Mosconi that is;)

Gerry
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G,
Well, I'm doubtful that Willie Mosconi played much on 7-footers. My comment was directed towards the difference between 10-footers and 9-footers (which SPIU started the thread with and which Willie specifically addressed in the Valley Forge video).

Willie was intimately familiar with the 10-footers, the 9-footers, and even the 8-footers (see his video on how to run a 50 - which he does in about 5 minutes on an 8-footer, talking while he shoots, walking to the next shot and setting up for the next shot before the cue ball stops rolling).

For the poster who extended the debate to include 7-footers I can only say I have never seen the game played on a bar table (or smaller, like the guy with a 6 1/2 footer), nor do I have any plans to try it or watch it. Since Willie ran his 526 on an 8-footer (reportedly), it's very hard to imagine him having much trouble with a smaller table - those guys knew how to deal with clusters, how to manufacture shots, and how to play close position at a level probably never seen by most of us. But then again, count me as one who thinks 8-ball is much easier on a bar table.

I am also hopeful to get in some straight pool on a 10 footer within the next month or two (Mark Wilson has a great one at his house near St. Louis - I've just not been invited to play on it yet:) - you have to be one of the pool elite to get such an invitation.......or else bribe him as I plan to do). I will report once I have had a chance. I believe that Mark's high run on the 10-footer is significantly lower than his high run on 9-footers, but that he values it more (I don't know the numbers, but I think they are around 200 and 100 respectively).
 
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Williebetmore said:
G,

Willie was intimately familiar with the 10-footers, the 9-footers, and even the 8-footers (see his video on how to run a 50 - which he does in about 5 minutes on an 8-footer, talking while he shoots, walking to the next shot and setting up for the next shot before the cue ball stops rolling).
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There's a video of Mosconi running 50 balls? Where can I find this?

thanks,
dwhite
 
Rich R. said:
I don't remember where, but I read somewhere that a portion of the country was using 5X10 tables and another portion of the country was using 8X10 tables. To make things more uniform for tournaments, the two sides compromised and settled on the 4 1/2X10 tables.

I have no idea if this is true, but it sounds logical.
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The larger 5x10 tables also known as "rebel traps" were mainly found up North. 4x8 tables were more common down South. A comprimise was reached to play on 4 1/2 x 9 ft tables.
 
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