A Question for 14.1 Historians

qstroker said:
There's a video of Mosconi running 50 balls? Where can I find this?

thanks,
dwhite
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Q,
It is part of one of the series of tapes sold by Bert Kinister. He has an extensive series of classic tapes (I bought them ALL), containing most of the documentary and newsreel pool footage that exists from players 1960 and earlier. Good luck finding it; you might search "Bert Kinister" or post a thread on the main forum; I'm sure someone here knows how to find them.
 
Williebetmore said:
Q,
It is part of one of the series of tapes sold by Bert Kinister. He has an extensive series of classic tapes (I bought them ALL), containing most of the documentary and newsreel pool footage that exists from players 1960 and earlier. Good luck finding it; you might search "Bert Kinister" or post a thread on the main forum; I'm sure someone here knows how to find them.
Click to expand...

I do have a tape from Kinster. I have the one with Greenleaf shooting trick shots that was mentioned here. It really isn't a tape I could recommend, but you do get to see some old time players in action... sort of.

Thanks a lot.

dwhite
 
qstroker said:
I do have a tape from Kinster. I have the one with Greenleaf shooting trick shots that was mentioned here. It really isn't a tape I could recommend, but you do get to see some old time players in action... sort of.

Thanks a lot.

dwhite
Click to expand...

Q,
The series of tapes has all of the ESPN Legend series - which is fairly interesting (probably 8 or 9 VHS tapes). The documentary footage (another 10 or so tapes) is of little interest to anyone except pool history buffs (like me).
 
StraightPoolIU said:
Since I consider myself a little bit of a pool history buff here is a question for all of you straight pool historians out there. What brought about the end of the standard 5'x10' table? I remember when I read Willie's Game that he talked about the standard race being to 125, and when the table size changed that's when the standard became 150. I just don't remember when the change occured or why. I've had the pleasure of playing 14.1 on a converted 5x10 snooker table...an interesting experience to say the least.
Click to expand...

I have Willie's Game in front of me, and here is what he says (wish I could just cut and paste):

In August of 1949, the BCA shortened the standard pool table from five by ten feet to four and a half by nine. The also widened the corner pockets from five to five and a half inches and the side pockets from four and a half to five (Rich93's note - I'm sure these dimensions are backwards, Willie must have misspoke and it was never caught). One reason for the change in table size was that manufacturers were producing five-by-tens only for championship play. The proprietors of pool halls had been ordering the smaller tables for years because they could fit more of them into their rooms. But essentially the changes were intended to speed play and generate excitement with the likelihood of longer runs. By way of compensation, the number of points needed to win a game was increased from 125 to 150 for national and world competition. How much of a difference did all of that make? Enough to say that starting in 1950 the game of pocket billiards was transformed; it became a markedly different game.

The pockets on the new tables looked as big as bushel baskets. Not only were they larger, they were closer to the shooter; it looked as though you couldn't miss. It no longer made much sense to play defense. On the one hand the shots were easier to make; on the other, it was more difficult to leave your opponent safe, for he would always be closer to the object ball than he would have been on the larger table. Almost immediately, records began to fall, encouraged both by the enlarged dimensions of the table and by the extended score of each game. It was now possible to run 150 balls or more in a single game, and it wasn't long before such runs were recorded.

The change in table size had another consequence, which went largely unnoticed. It opened championship competetion to players from the South. For some reason, the four-and-a-half-by-nines had always been standard in the southern states. That's why no tournaments were ever held in that part of the country. It's also why there never were any championship caliber players from the South until after 1950. The difference of a foot one way and six inches the other may not sound like a lot, but a player from North Carolina or Georgia would come up North and bend over a five-by-ten and it would look like a football field to him. Switching from the larger table to the smaller one had, of course, the opposite effect, and the difference was apparent in that very first tournament in Chicago.
 
gulfportdoc said:
309 by Irving Crane. I believe that to be a far more difficult feat than Mosconi's 526 on a 4 x 8. The record will never be broken.

Doc
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I know this is pushing it, but any idea the pocket size on this 5x10? Is there any info on this run? How did you hear of it?
 
Rich93 said:
I have Willie's Game in front of me, and here is what he says (wish I could just cut and paste):

In August of 1949, the BCA shortened the standard pool table from five by ten feet to four and a half by nine....
Click to expand...

I was also crusing thru Willie's Game, looking for insights on
5 x 10s vs 4 1/2 x 9. I had forgoten just how much the switch
had changed the game<at least acording to Mosconi>

A few thoughts:
Those of you who are not table mechanics might not fully
apreciate just how much difference there is in the physical
aspects of the tables

NOTE: don't claim to be someone who 'loves' pool unless
you have lugged at least one 5 x 10 up and down at least
one flight of stairs

Now, the math geeky part
like building lumber 2 x 4s
the designations 8, 9, and 10 footers are nominal
and can be somewhat misleading

actual playing surface dimensions<cushion nose to cushion nose>
in inches are:
4 x 8 46 x 96
4 1/2 x 9 500 x 100
5 x 10 56 x 112

for those who may care, that expands out to playing areas<sq ins> of

4232
5000
6272

So why would you care? Well, the move up to a 10 footer
from a nine footer is more than a 50% greater increase
than the move from an 8 footer to a 9 footer

it may just look like a couple of inches here and there,
but if you've never experienced pool on a 5 x 10,
it's hard to apreciate the difference.

Hope this helps some with perspective

Dale Pierce
 
Williebetmore said:
Q,
The series of tapes has all of the ESPN Legend series - which is fairly interesting (probably 8 or 9 VHS tapes). The documentary footage (another 10 or so tapes) is of little interest to anyone except pool history buffs (like me).
Click to expand...


I checked and realized that I already have the Kinister tape you mention with Mosconi running balls. However, he only runs 2 racks, not 50. If there is another tape of him running 50 I definitely want it, but I think this is probably the same tape, with a run of 28.

thanks,
dwhite
 
qstroker said:
I do have a tape from Kinster. I have the one with Greenleaf shooting trick shots that was mentioned here. It really isn't a tape I could recommend, but you do get to see some old time players in action... sort of.

Thanks a lot.

dwhite
Click to expand...

About a year ago or more I asked Bert for the tape that WillieB was talking about. He sent me a copy of a Willie Mosconi tape I already had, the one where Willie was interviewed and then starts demonstrating on a table with gold cloth.I think it might have been called the world of pocket billiards. He runs a few but I don't think it was 50, more like a couple of racks as I recall. Bert said that's the only one he had.
 
10 vs 9 footer

I agree with Willie.
When I starting playing pool in a pool hall back in Buffalo, NY there were 9 foot table and two 10 foot tables. The 10 foot tables were/are much harder to run balls on.
Even Danny Dilberto's mentor Joe Moran mostly chose a 9 table vs a 10 table when playing straight pool.

If you could run only two racks of straight pool on a 10 footer and then switched to a 9 footer, your game would immediately improve. At least that was my exprience.

Best Regards,
Hal
 
Hey guys :)

I've been a fan of Straight Pool from I started playing at 5 years old, and in fact, it was reading about Willie Mosconi's achievements that got me into picking up a pool cue in the first place, although due to my location, the only tables that I have been able to play straight pool on, are 4.5' x 9's, but I have always felt that a 5' x 10' table would be much better for competing on, not just for straight pool, but also for other games like one-pocket and banks, but to me it doesn't matter because I'm happy to shoot straight pool whenever I can, I will always prefer it over 8ball and 9ball everytime :)
 
I'm old enough to remember when 10' tables were sprinkled around various pool rooms, more as a novelty or drawing feature. Then you would usually see a 5x10 and a billiard table or two also.

Another aspect of having it be more difficult to run balls on a 10' table, at least from what I experienced is that our "mind's eye" is trained to get down and "feel" the shot / angle on a 9' table and doing the same thing on a 10' table sort of puts our pool memory banks on tilt somewhat which impeads our natural ability to feel the shots.
 
gulfportdoc said:
309 by Irving Crane. I believe that to be a far more difficult feat than Mosconi's 526 on a 4 x 8. The record will never be broken.

Doc
Click to expand...

What is your source for the Crane record?

Mosconi had a high run of 309 on a 5 x 10.

I had heard of Irv running 300 Plus on a 9 ft

Dale
 
pdcue said:
What is your source for the Crane record?

Mosconi had a high run of 309 on a 5 x 10....
Click to expand...
Here is how Wikipedia puts it (which matches my memory of the records in the BCA rule book):

In 1939, at just 26, Crane ran 150 balls and out against his opponent in an exhibition straight pool match on a difficult 5' by 10' table in Layton, Utah. While this was impressive in and of itself, at the crowd's urging, he continued his run, ultimately pocketing 309 consecutive balls; a new world record.
​
Mosconi ran the same shortly(?) after that. Mosconi was said to have had a 350 or so later to take the lead for 5x10 exhibition runs.

Procita has the record for 14.1 tournament play at 182, which was on a 5x10(?) against Mosconi.
 
How could I have overlooked Wikky

Bob Jewett said:
Here is how Wikipedia puts it (which matches my memory of the records in the BCA rule book):

In 1939, at just 26, Crane ran 150 balls and out against his opponent in an exhibition straight pool match on a difficult 5' by 10' table in Layton, Utah. While this was impressive in and of itself, at the crowd's urging, he continued his run, ultimately pocketing 309 consecutive balls; a new world record.
​
Mosconi ran the same shortly(?) after that. Mosconi was said to have had a 350 or so later to take the lead for 5x10 exhibition runs.

Procita has the record for 14.1 tournament play at 182, which was on a 5x10(?) against Mosconi.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob,

'Willies Game' lists 309 as the 5 x 10 max run.
Of course, they also repeat the oft mistated error that the
526 was done in Springfield IL, when it was, in fact Springfield, OH.

I recall hearing for years that Willie had run somewhere in the
350 - 360 range a few weeks before. Never any mention of table
size.

FWIW - local lore has it that there was a 9 ft table(s)
in East High, but Willie couldn't play on it because it
wasn't a Brunswick.

Dale
 
Bob Jewett said:
... Mosconi ran the same shortly(?) after that. Mosconi was said to have had a 350 or so later to take the lead for 5x10 exhibition runs.
...
Click to expand...
I just looked through some old BCA rule books and it looks like I was wrong. Only Crane is listed as running 309, and there was no higher exhibition run on 5x10 tables. Sorry for the misinformation.
 
Hey Bob, no worries buddy :), after all we're all human :)

I'm wondering how many of you would've liked the idea of a World Straight Pool Championship tournament, on 5' x 10' tables? :)

Willie
 
i used to play with joe moran!

Hal2 said:
I agree with Willie.
When I starting playing pool in a pool hall back in Buffalo, NY there were 9 foot table and two 10 foot tables. The 10 foot tables were/are much harder to run balls on.
Even Danny Dilberto's mentor Joe Moran mostly chose a 9 table vs a 10 table when playing straight pool.

If you could run only two racks of straight pool on a 10 footer and then switched to a 9 footer, your game would immediately improve. At least that was my exprience.

Best Regards,
Hal
Click to expand...

joe was a great guy and good friend. he ran 93 on me at the salt city open in syracuse i 65. i was 17. he used to come to rochester tournys and we would play for $10 or $20. always a pleasure to play. i missed him when he passed....pat howey
 
i started play ing on 10 footers

it was at alangers in philly. thet had about 16 10 footers and only 4 or 5 9 footers. they were a chalenge. just the size was intimidating but if you got over that you could play them like any other table. the big differance was in the balls. they were clay. boy could you aply english to those balls! they drew and followed so differently!
also got to play willy in exibition in sandiago in 68, i was in the navy. it was on a new 5by 10. he ran a 65 from the break and i came back with 68, he ran out to 125 the next shot! the next 4 days he ran out twice and out in 2 inings the other 2 games! he could move balls like magic . seems he would just break out 2 or 3 balls at a time and do it over and over!he shot a lot of balls in the sides and top corners. it was something to watch!
if you are in the largo , seminol area in fla. there is one good 10 footer at a room called the corner pocket on starkey rd between ulmerton rd and bryandary.
 
Big difference...

I was playing pretty well in the early to mid 90's...practiced regularly at my local hall...the owner got his hands on a real nice 10-footer and put it in a niche area to the side...

I had been playing 9-ball tournaments regularly but practicing a lot of straight pool...and I went after that 10-footer like a kid with a new toy...but it was murder...like Willie said...it looked like a football field...

I was just beginning to put some decent runs together after a couple of months...when he sold it...because I was the only one playing on it...and I was the house man who didn't have to pay lol...

Good riddance I say...
 
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