ABP may be fixing games and tournaments

[dom_poppa]

Just thought of another reason the ABP players are so adamant about timely payments - makes it easier to chop the money with their behind the scenes deals and shenanigans. I was at an event in the mid 90's that involved two of the players on the ABP player list. "Player A" was on the top of his game and soundly beat "Player B" 11 - 1 in the hotseat match. "Player B" game back from the left side of the bracket for a single race to 13 for the championship. "Player B" won the rematch 13 - 2 for the championship.

Now the rest of the story. Prize money was $5000 for first, $3000 for second. BUT, in the calcutta, It was about $8500 for first and $4000 for second. "Player A"'s backer had "Player B" in the calcutta. They came out $2500 ahead by dumping in the finals.

So, seeding and timely payouts make crap like this a lot more easy accomplish. Maybe, all big tourneys should have delayed payments just to prevent this type of stuff.

This was posted in another thread and it got me thinking that since all these players are in one organization, what happens if 4 members were placed 1st through 4th. Would they chop it up?

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

There should be a board to investigate some of these backroom dealings....it happens all the time in the local scene....this is the same but in a grand scheme.

 

[Bamacues]

This was posted in another thread and it got me thinking that since all these players are in one organization, what happens if 4 members were placed 1st through 4th. Would they chop it up?

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

There should be a board to investigate some of these backroom dealings....it happens all the time in the local scene....this is the same but in a grand scheme.

There is no reason to investigate anything. Whatever has happened at the local scene has no effect on what has happened elsewhere.

Until such time as evidence of something like that arises, it is just "what if".

You can't investigate or prosecute someone because something might happen or you saw some other guy do something once way back when.

Now, if they were using performance enhancing drugs, and they lied to Congress about it, well, that is something else entirely....

Joe

 

["CaliRed".]

This was posted in another thread and it got me thinking that since all these players are in one organization, what happens if 4 members were placed 1st through 4th. Would they chop it up?

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

There should be a board to investigate some of these backroom dealings....it happens all the time in the local scene....this is the same but in a grand scheme.

what the hell is it with a small select group of users, that feel they have to start brand new threads about everything? You're quoting a guy that wrote in another thread. Why not just reply to him there?

I truly believe that for some people (the 3 or 4 people that do this constantly) it's all about having their "name in the lights".

So a guy claimed he saw someone chop up a tourney 20 years ago, and now another ridiculous comment and thread is started, with absolutely no facts to back ANY of it up.

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

Each time you post, you continue to set the bar higher for stupidest post on the year. Not a good thing, if it really must be explained to you.

the whole problem lies in the red highlighted text above in your post.

 

[manwon]

This was posted in another thread and it got me thinking that since all these players are in one organization, what happens if 4 members were placed 1st through 4th. Would they chop it up?

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

There should be a board to investigate some of these backroom dealings....it happens all the time in the local scene....this is the same but in a grand scheme.

I have no idea if they do this at the Pro-Level but it is very common in local events at least in my local area. It has been going on for years and still is as we speak. Now while the dollar amount are certainly different the concept is exactly the same and all most anyone playing on regular basis in local events know that it is happening.!!

JIMO

 

[peteypooldude]

what the hell is it with a small select group of users, that feel they have to start brand new threads about everything? You're quoting a guy that wrote in another thread. Why not just reply to him there?

I truly believe that for some people (the 3 or 4 people that do this constantly) it's all about having their "name in the lights".

So a guy claimed he saw someone chop up a tourney 20 years ago, and now another ridiculous comment and thread is started, with absolutely no facts to back ANY of it up.

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

Each time you post, you continue to set the bar higher for stupidest post on the year. Not a good thing, if it really must be explained to you.

the whole problem lies in the red highlighted text above in your post.

Thank You , I never knew so many AZ members hated our pros.
They have been called everything imaginable

 

[JAM]

Thank You , I never knew so many AZ members hated our pros.
They have been called everything imaginable

Really? I've been noticing it for a long time. Some of the ugly words written on this forum about professional players are hurtful and mean-spirited. It's kind of sad, actually. It's Union Oil on this forum. Get used to it. I have for years!

 

[classiccues]

Really? I've been noticing it for a long time. Some of the ugly words written on this forum about professional players are hurtful and mean-spirited. It's kind of sad, actually. It's Union Oil on this forum. Get used to it. I have for years!

OK stop acting like this has never happened.. if you type dump match in the search, it's not like it is a big secret...

starting here..

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=236184&highlight=dump+match

It's a legitimate question.. what stops these guys from doing this type of stuff from here on out? What guarantee does a promoter, or a person that sets up the live feed / makes dvd's get that a match is straight up?

Whenever money is involved, you just don't know....

JV

 

[macguy]

This was posted in another thread and it got me thinking that since all these players are in one organization, what happens if 4 members were placed 1st through 4th. Would they chop it up?

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

There should be a board to investigate some of these backroom dealings....it happens all the time in the local scene....this is the same but in a grand scheme.

Players have always formed syndicates and tried to take down the tournament money. Not so much to fix anything but to guarantee themselves at least some money. Since most tournaments have the money very top heavy with some luck say four players can end up with like 75% of the whole prize fund. That is just the way it is.

 

[dom_poppa]

Perhaps the ABP was setup to steal from the tournaments and the amateur players.

They setup this organization and instead of addressing what they would do for the game of pool, the first thing they talk about is money and how they should get paid.

The organization's members joins a particular tournament, if seeded, eventually the top guys would meet each other in the later rounds and chop up the money.

That is stealing and hurts the integrity of the game.

 

[dom_poppa]

Players have always formed syndicates and tried to take down the tournament money. Not so much to fix anything but to guarantee themselves at least some money. Since most tournaments have the money very top heavy with some luck say four players can end up with like 75% of the whole prize fund. That is just the way it is.

Such a shame that the ABP may be doing this, especially on the "pro" level.

 

[JAM]

OK stop acting like this has never happened.. if you type dump match in the search, it's not like it is a big secret...

starting here..

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=236184&highlight=dump+match

It's a legitimate question.. what stops these guys from doing this type of stuff from here on out? What guarantee does a promoter, or a person that sets up the live feed / makes dvd's get that a match is straight up?

Whenever money is involved, you just don't know....

JV

I was not addressing "dumping," and I never said it hasn't happened or has happened.

I was writing about the words written on this forum about pro players, that they are often mean-spirited and cruel. As an example, some write that they are all bums who don't want to get a job, so they shoot pool instead. That is what I am referring to. There is no respect for the talent they have. Rather, it's like pro players are the scum of the earth.

And when somebody speaks up in their defense, they're accused of being a nut-hanger, a groupie, or a worshiper.

 

[macguy]

Such a shame that the ABP may be doing this, especially on the "pro" level.

I was talking about the pro's. Sigel, Rempy, Varner were always schmoozing and forget about the Philippine contingent. Like I said, it is just the way it is.

 

[jamesroberts]

Perhaps the ABP was setup to steal from the tournaments and the amateur players.

They setup this organization and instead of addressing what they would do for the game of pool, the first thing they talk about is money and how they should get paid.

The organization's members joins a particular tournament, if seeded, eventually the top guys would meet each other in the later rounds and chop up the money.

That is stealing and hurts the integrity of the game.

I think you are trying to make a conspiracy theory but aren't really smart enough to complete a thought! The only way what you are proposing is possible would be to let the underdog win and the favorite lose, while the favorite bets on the underdog. If thats the case how is the pro stealing a tourney. Think about what you write before you write it.

 

[enzo]

This was posted in another thread and it got me thinking that since all these players are in one organization, what happens if 4 members were placed 1st through 4th. Would they chop it up?

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

There should be a board to investigate some of these backroom dealings....it happens all the time in the local scene....this is the same but in a grand scheme.

the probelm with this logic, as i see it, is that the players actually do need the money very soon, if not right after, the tournaments. we all know this. i mean we arent dealing with tiger woods type incomes here.

i guess to see if you are correct or not, we'd have to have players that actually have money to travel back home etc, and then if they STILL asked for the moeny, you may have a point. but since we arent in that situation, i think we are compelled to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[enzo]

what the hell is it with a small select group of users, that feel they have to start brand new threads about everything? You're quoting a guy that wrote in another thread. Why not just reply to him there?

I truly believe that for some people (the 3 or 4 people that do this constantly) it's all about having their "name in the lights".

So a guy claimed he saw someone chop up a tourney 20 years ago, and now another ridiculous comment and thread is started, with absolutely no facts to back ANY of it up.

This is a possible scam and fraud by this organization to steal money from tournaments. This is why the integrity of pool will always be where it is today.

Each time you post, you continue to set the bar higher for stupidest post on the year. Not a good thing, if it really must be explained to you.

the whole problem lies in the red highlighted text above in your post.

calired.... i like this guy. i tried to rep you but i guess i had already repped you for something else, haha. just go a little easier for me next time, please, pretty please

 

[KRJ]

hmmmm

Such a shame that the ABP may be doing this, especially on the "pro" level.

You sir are a complete arse. You cannot come on here and accuse an organization of cheating and conspiracy just becuase "it" could happen.

Heck, I could rob a bank tomorrow, don't make it a fact. And so there is not any misunderstanding about who reported you to the mods, it was ME, and it was my pleasure. This is ridiculous and I think you are beyond thin ice here, I think you just sank to the bottom and thus we will see what the mods think about yet another ridiculous thread that you have started. Tell pocket point I say hi !!

And for the record, I have not posted in any threads in regards to this debate about BB versus ABP, because I"m not sure where I stand at this time, but I do know, throwing out false accusations is not the way to defeat your opponent in a debate. Unlike yourself who recently posted this little nugget: And I quote: ""I am boycotting these players and their sponsors.
I will not buy anything they are promoting. I hope the sponsors excercise caution when picking a spokesman. We, at AZB, are the people of pool, we buy all these overpriced crap""


CRJ

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

This whole thread is faulty. First off, the incident quoted in the OP is different than what he then is asking us to discuss. The incident quoted involves essentially defrauding a calcutta. But what he then is asking about is if 2-4 players left in a tournament decide to chop up the prize fund. I'm not in favor of chopping ever, but it isn't necessarily underhanded or cheating as it were.

Let's say two guys are left in the final and they decide between the two of them to split 1st and 2nd money. That doesn't mean that they will automatically decide for one to dump in the final. It is entirely possible that they will both play their hearts out for the trophy and any Cup or rankings points the winner may receive.

As I said, I don't agree with chopping, but let's face it, because there is no money in pool the occasion has arisen where both players have agreed they would rather settle for something less than first place but be guaranteed more than 2nd place cash. I don't like it, but let's be clear: simple chopping is not the same as dumping.

So the incident quoted in the OP is a really poor example. It wasn't chopping, it was dumping.

 

[KRJ]

Hmmm

This whole thread is faulty. First off, the incident quoted in the OP is different than what he then is asking us to discuss. The incident quoted involves essentially defrauding a calcutta. But what he then is asking about is if 2-4 players left in a tournament decide to chop up the prize fund. I'm not in favor of chopping ever, but it isn't necessarily underhanded or cheating as it were.

Let's say two guys are left in the final and they decide between the two of them to split 1st and 2nd money. That doesn't mean that they won't automatically decide for one to dump in the final. It is entirely possible that they will both play their hearts out for the trophy and any Cup or rankings points the winner may receive.

As I said, I don't agree with chopping, but let's face it, because there is no money in pool the occasion has arisen where both players have agreed to settle for something better than 2nd place money. I don't like it, but let's be clear: simple chopping is not the same as dumping.

So the incident quoted in the OP is a really poor example. It wasn't chopping, it was dumping.

Good point Dogs. And I agree. If two guys are left, and its 10K for 1st and 5K for second, and if they agree that either way they will both get $7500, why would I care. Of course, they are still going to play to win just the same for the 1st place trophy, another title to put on their resume and hopefully attract a sponsor or two. But coming up short puts a little more money in your pocket and nothing wrong with that. They gotta pay the mortgage just like the rest of us.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Good point Dogs. And I agree. If two guys are left, and its 10K for 1st and 5K for second, and if they agree that either way they will both get $7500, why would I care. Of course, they are still going to play to win just the same for the 1st place trophy, another title to put on their resume and hopefully attract a sponsor or two. But coming up short puts a little more money in your pocket and nothing wrong with that. They gotta pay the mortgage just like the rest of us.

Thanks, RJ. As I said, I don't like chopping and if I was running a pro event it would be strongly discouraged. I just think it "cheapens" an event because it takes some of the dynamic away from the match because the players are not playing for money. And any railbirds not aware of the deal may be wagering on the outcome thinking they are playing for the cash. More importantly though, I think any fans watching that found out later they were not playing for 1st place money would feel a little let down. I mean, if they announced before the match that the players were chopping, it would take some of the wind out of the sails of the final.

I just wanted to clarify that it isn't in the same league as dumping a match.

In the pitzalah little tournaments I hold at my house I could care less if the finalists want to chop. And if they did everyone would know so there would be full disclosure to any rail bettors. Besides, the DPP trophy is one of the most coveted in all of pool so I know for sure both players would be trying like hell anyway, LOL.

 

[Rich93]

Really? I've been noticing it for a long time. Some of the ugly words written on this forum about professional players are hurtful and mean-spirited. It's kind of sad, actually. It's Union Oil on this forum. Get used to it. I have for years!

Yes, all these ABP threads really opened my eyes. A lot of posters seem all too ready to take down a pro on the forum. No wonder the pros don't post here more often. Anonymity, I think, is the root of the problem.

As for this particular thread, it's not really worth comment except for this one. Anybody who throws out charges like dom_poppa ought to at least sign their name to the post to show they stand behind the charge and are not just being hateful.