ABP vs. Berry -- Oh?

[crosseyedjoe]

JAM...If memory serves me correctly, didn't Makabenta delay paying the tournament players in the 2009 or 2010 World 10-ball event for almost a YEAR?...and that was a WPA sanctioned event! IIRC, the WPA did NOTHING to try to force the promoter to "pay up". The same person ran the event again this year, but I think the players were paid on that one. That makes BB look like an angel in comparison, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

After 2009 payment fiasco, prize money has to be put on escrow account. I can't blame ABP if they want some level of stability from every event they compete in specially the big ones.

 

[Georgia Boy]

Max
Fantastic first post, welcome to the Forum.

Jay
Your post about Bob is truely an awesome and thought provoking one. Bob displays what we would want the ability to do ourselves and what we would love our own heroes to do. Unfortunately in todays World that is all too often lacking in Society in general and in the Sporting World.

I would say the most important message I take away from this is that maybe we should all do a little soul searching and be thankful we have what we do and remember those less fortunate than ourselves.

 

[JAM]

I really like what you stated Max.. It is a recurring factor that there are individuals that care more about the money than the love of this wonderful game of billiards.. I can tell you this from personal experience, the feeling the comes from within when you are in dead stroke on the pool table is magnificent.. No amount of money can compare to the gratitude one feels when playing at a grand level..
For the saying goes; "For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evils.." Now, don't get me wrong, having the prize money as a bonus for one's committed hard work is great, but inevitably the reason for playing is what really matters.. If a player goes to an event only caring if they will win cash then they are losing from the start.. The passion from the players who respect the game for what it is ( a challenge of the utmost capacity ) comes from within their heart.. Love the GAME and you will be contributing to the future of Billiards itself..
I do agree with the comments on players being more involved in activities such as fund raisers, community events, giving lessons with students of the game, and socializing after match play.. This kind of togetherness can only grow the sport.. I remember being a teenager and watching the top players in the Big events, I loved every minute of it.. But afterwards, when waiting to catch players such as Johnny Archer or Earl Strickland for a Autograph, now that meant a lot to me as a student of the game.. So, in short, becoming a COMMUNITY as a WHOLE would flourish instantly..
I have faith that in due time the future for BILLIARDS will shine abroad, it deserves the best in the end..

Yours Truly, Shaun "Get Some" Wilkie

A well-written post from someone who understands pool culture. Thank you for sharing, "Get Some." Don't be a stranger on the forum. You are an excellent writer. Please post some more. It is nice to read the insights from those actually in the trenches! :smile:

Interesting forum name, "Twebble." I'm sure there's a funny story about how that nickname came about.

 

[Black-Balled]

A well-written post from someone who understands pool culture. Thank you for sharing, "Get Some." Don't be a stranger on the forum. You are an excellent writer. Please post some more. It is nice to read the insights from those actually in the trenches! :smile:

Interesting forum name, "Twebble." I'm sure there's a funny story about how that nickname came about.

Agreed- Nice to have Shaun join us. For those that know Shaun from tourney write-ups only, he is as good a human as he is a pool player. One quality dude...sure he's got blue arms, so what?!

Wilkie- open invitation to you on that no-pocket table, when you need an ass-whuppin!

 

[Twebble]

Thanks everyone for the kind words.. I try my best to give my honest opinion and you'll seem to like my comments, sweet.. This game needs many voices to speak up and be heard and I'm not scared to be one of them at all.. I will stay a loyal respectable player the rest of my life.. Many issues have been dealt with these last few years concerning tournament play and I am glad to see such progress.. Only time will tell when all problems/issues will eventually be diminished and we all can get back to playing the GENTLEMAN'S game..

 

[Scott Lee]

Twebble...Tap, tap, tap! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks everyone for the kind words.. I try my best to give my honest opinion and you'll seem to like my comments, sweet.. This game needs many voices to speak up and be heard and I'm not scared to be one of them at all.. I will stay a loyal respectable player the rest of my life.. Many issues have been dealt with these last few years concerning tournament play and I am glad to see such progress.. Only time will tell when all problems/issues will eventually be diminished and we all can get back to playing the GENTLEMAN'S game..

 

[C.Milian]

I am a musician. You could say that since I’ve never really played a billiard tournament or been involved in a billiard community like this that my opinion is wrong or unnecessary. But what I’ve seen from both sides of this argument feels oddly familiar to me, and this is how:

I play death metal. It is a mostly underground genre with a relatively small but fiercely loyal fan base. This means when my band wanted to find success, we were essentially stuck promoting ourselves and just trying to survive while living the lifestyle we were inexplicably drawn to, since nobody really wanted to help us. And wouldn’t you know it? Lots of times we would get shafted by the people running the show. When the end of the night came around and we asked managers about the money (usually just a pittance anyway), we would sometimes just get laughed at or dodged outright. Getting money at all, even months after the fact, would have been fantastic. But we persevered anyway. Our love for what we did compelled us forward to play more shows and spread our passion no matter what the cost. Such is my understanding of true motivation and dedication. This was just me being true to myself, regardless of cost.

Suppose we told some of these promoters “If the money isn’t up front, we’re never playing your venue again.” They would just have a good laugh and book another band, simple as that. And I wouldn’t even want to imagine what kind of shouting/beating I would have endured from my band mates if I made that decision and made a huge deal about it without getting EVERYONE’S input first. For the ABP to expect something different because they are the top pool players is the height of folly.

The idea here is that people, no matter how skilled and in what areas, are replaceable. A player that truly loves his sport and wants to see it flourish would play any match he could, just like my band did any show we could, regardless of reward; because the reward is the game itself, and your fulfillment of your foremost driving passion in life. Sometimes that may mean living below your means, which can seem frustrating when it isn’t your fault, but consider this: You are privileged to live in a time and place where your former hobby now allows you to live without real hardship. If money is ever the more important issue, it is because a man has not found his genuine love in life – The thing he desires most in spite of monetary gain or loss.

I do not expect the ABP to win this fight. They will either be replaced by amateurs that aren’t as obsessed with the money situation, or there will be (already is?) dissension and some ABP players will enter anyway. Those are the two outcomes as I see them. So effectively all they’ve done is screw themselves out of free entry, and screwed their sponsors out of nationwide advertising. I can’t imagine anyone will be too happy when this is over. What Olympian would look at the state of this game right now and think “Hey, they deserve the same respect and attention as us.”

Everyone owes it to themselves to find their own harmony in life, which requires deeply personal and QUIET consideration. Not all this dissonant noise spit back and forth over the internet.
Many years of glorious, titanic billiard competition should not be dismantled over the question “what have you done for me lately?”

I find some of what the few has said to be very moving. I would continue with my disagreement with what you have written, but Howard Roark, in the movie "The Fountainhead " does a better job. Look it up, its on Youtube. It's his speech given at the end of his trial, justifying why he blew up something he built with his own hands. The people that denounced his ways, fell in love with it after he created it. They took him to trial.

 

[stumpie71]

Max and Tweeble welcome to the forum. I enjoyed and agree with your opinions.:thumbup:

 

[geocheren]

Max, you really know people don't you? And that's just how simply all this will play out.

Does anyone think the pros cleared this ABP move with their sponsors? I would highly doubt it, so you may see a few less patches on shirts at the next big event. Just shooting themselves in the feet really.

It looks like Brian Lipes, aka master9baller, created another account, after having 7 accounts banned.

 

[C.Milian]

It looks like Brian Lipes, aka master9baller, created another account, after having 7 accounts banned.

Who is who?

 

[geocheren]

Who is who?

Brian Lipes had the following accounts banned in the past month due to his actions in his APA Fulton thread:
master9baller
apapro
Icouldcareless
play4$
letzplay
apaalltheway

and it looks like he started another account, $player, and started posting again. Brian and the Mike Andrews 'UGETTHE6', do not get along for other reasons.

 

[C.Milian]

Brian Lipes had the following accounts banned in the past month due to his actions in his APA Fulton thread:
master9baller
apapro
Icouldcareless
play4$
letzplay
apaalltheway

and it looks like he started another account, $player, and started posting again. Brian and the Mike Andrews 'UGETTHE6', do not get along for other reasons.

Who is max cooley?

 

[Str8PoolMan]

Welcome to the Forum, Max...

I am a musician. You could say that since I’ve never really played a billiard tournament or been involved in a billiard community like this that my opinion is wrong or unnecessary. But what I’ve seen from both sides of this argument feels oddly familiar to me, and this is how:

I play death metal. It is a mostly underground genre with a relatively small but fiercely loyal fan base. This means when my band wanted to find success, we were essentially stuck promoting ourselves and just trying to survive while living the lifestyle we were inexplicably drawn to, since nobody really wanted to help us. And wouldn’t you know it? Lots of times we would get shafted by the people running the show. When the end of the night came around and we asked managers about the money (usually just a pittance anyway), we would sometimes just get laughed at or dodged outright. Getting money at all, even months after the fact, would have been fantastic. But we persevered anyway. Our love for what we did compelled us forward to play more shows and spread our passion no matter what the cost. Such is my understanding of true motivation and dedication. This was just me being true to myself, regardless of cost.

Suppose we told some of these promoters “If the money isn’t up front, we’re never playing your venue again.” They would just have a good laugh and book another band, simple as that. And I wouldn’t even want to imagine what kind of shouting/beating I would have endured from my band mates if I made that decision and made a huge deal about it without getting EVERYONE’S input first. For the ABP to expect something different because they are the top pool players is the height of folly.

The idea here is that people, no matter how skilled and in what areas, are replaceable. A player that truly loves his sport and wants to see it flourish would play any match he could, just like my band did any show we could, regardless of reward; because the reward is the game itself, and your fulfillment of your foremost driving passion in life. Sometimes that may mean living below your means, which can seem frustrating when it isn’t your fault, but consider this: You are privileged to live in a time and place where your former hobby now allows you to live without real hardship. If money is ever the more important issue, it is because a man has not found his genuine love in life – The thing he desires most in spite of monetary gain or loss.

I do not expect the ABP to win this fight. They will either be replaced by amateurs that aren’t as obsessed with the money situation, or there will be (already is?) dissension and some ABP players will enter anyway. Those are the two outcomes as I see them. So effectively all they’ve done is screw themselves out of free entry, and screwed their sponsors out of nationwide advertising. I can’t imagine anyone will be too happy when this is over. What Olympian would look at the state of this game right now and think “Hey, they deserve the same respect and attention as us.”

Everyone owes it to themselves to find their own harmony in life, which requires deeply personal and QUIET consideration. Not all this dissonant noise spit back and forth over the internet.
Many years of glorious, titanic billiard competition should not be dismantled over the question “what have you done for me lately?”

As for your analogy, here's the problem: Yes, if your group stood up to a promoter and stated you wouldn't play without guarantee of payment, then he would probably laugh and go find another group. However, if all the groups banded together (so to speak), and stated that no one would play for that promoter, then he would either have to acquiesce to the demands or be left stuck without a quality band to play on Saturday night and draw in the crowds.

That is what I think the ABP is trying to do here. Whether they are doing it well, or properly, is another debate. Basically, they are trying to stand up for the players and say they want to be treated like professionals (even if the players don't act like professionals all the time).

But, I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. I don't really know who is right here. I have no fish to fry in this debate. Although, I do tend to lean towards the players side a bit. But that's because I have been a member of this forum for several years now and have heard many here bemoan the plight of the professional pool player; with all the slow pays, no-pays, and crooked promoters. Then, when the players do try to stand up for themselves, the majority seem to go against them, saying they are just greedy, acting childish, or "cutting their own throats."

But enough of all that crap. Let's talk about you. What's your game? What do you shoot? I'm a straight pool (14.1) man, myself. But I'll play just about anything.

Again, welcome to the forum. Enjoy.