Added $$$ = Load of Crap (long but worth it)

iba7467

iba7467

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another local venue has been adding $500 twice weekly to a local tournament. I thought of having one at our pool room. Upon researching tournament payouts on the AZ website I have found that alot of the added $$$ is not so much at all.

Last week one such tournament was brought to light (I will not mention the name). Advertising $2500 added, actually added $1025.

A much larger promotion (I will not name... PM if really that interested) is regularly having $$$ added, here are there numbers.

Supposed addition $1500, actual $145
Supposed addition $1500, actual $325
Supposed addition $1000, actually took an extra $335

I understand tournament directors must make money, but greens fees in a money added tournament is counterproductive. Why are these individuals not more honest.

If our local tournament has 20 players at $10 per player =$200 + $500 added = $700 payout, then $700 is paid out. Why do pool players not acknowledge this.

Sorry, this began as a genuine question; but the more I researched, the more irritated I became.

I'm not saying all tournaments are doing this, but plenty are. Maybe I should advertise $100 entry (less greens fees, we will not mention these greens fees are $100) $50,000 added based on 500 players.
 
I'm not 100% sure of how you are stating this. Most added tournys are basing the added money on entries. If that is the case there would be no added money if the field wasn't as full as they expected.

If you are talking about a guarantee on the amount added then I would ask for the breakdown of the money.

Maybe i'm not fully understanding the question but i'll keep checking back.

John
 
If I included the exact payouts and the number of players, the tour and tournaments would be obvious. In not one of the tour stops I looked up were there less than 64 players.

After further research I did find that the premier tour event added more than the guaranteed amount. The premier events did not garner 128 entries, the next progression above 64, therefore I assume the maximum amount to be added was. There is no reference in the tour flyers as to minimum participation.

I am earnestly trying to show a misrepresentation here, not making false accusations. All of my information can be found just as easily as I did by looking up any tournament payouts, the # of players, the entry fee, and the supposed added $.
 
iba7467 said:
Another local venue has been adding $500 twice weekly to a local tournament. I thought of having one at our pool room. Upon researching tournament payouts on the AZ website I have found that alot of the added $$$ is not so much at all.

Last week one such tournament was brought to light (I will not mention the name). Advertising $2500 added, actually added $1025.

A much larger promotion (I will not name... PM if really that interested) is regularly having $$$ added, here are there numbers.

Supposed addition $1500, actual $145
Supposed addition $1500, actual $325
Supposed addition $1000, actually took an extra $335

I understand tournament directors must make money, but greens fees in a money added tournament is counterproductive. Why are these individuals not more honest.

If our local tournament has 20 players at $10 per player =$200 + $500 added = $700 payout, then $700 is paid out. Why do pool players not acknowledge this.

Sorry, this began as a genuine question; but the more I researched, the more irritated I became.

I'm not saying all tournaments are doing this, but plenty are. Maybe I should advertise $100 entry (less greens fees, we will not mention these greens fees are $100) $50,000 added based on 500 players.
Click to expand...

Most weekly tournaments are run by one of the players in a local pool room. Usually, all monies are added. The tournament director and sometimes women and children will get to play for free.

Most regional events do the chop-chop. Some are better than others.

It does cost money to keep the regional tours whole. So being the TD does require compensation, not only for time, but for materials and other expenditures.

In my experience, the regional tours take out about 25 to 35 percent to cover tournament costs. That's just the way it is. The tour wouldn't be in existence if somebody didn't make it happen.

After you go to a few tournaments, you, too, will learn the terminology of "guaranteed," "added," and "guaranteed added." Then you always have to read for any provisions like payouts or monies added is "based on" so many players or "green fees."

Some tours will request that you purchase a tour card if you want to play in the tour event. You don't have to, but if you don't, then the tournament entry fee for that one tournament will be a wee bit higher than the normal entry fee.

Hope this helps! :)

JAM
 
IMO Jam is correct, what you are missing when you do your math is the TD take out. The money was added but was added to the prize pool after the TD take out. You were probably adding entry fee as a whole then the added money and coming up with a figure not including the chop. There would be no tournaments at all if the TD didn't get paid for the hard work.
 
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Please, let me sign up. $3865 for 3 weekends work. I am not even berating the tournament directors for this. If their fee is that high, so be it, but do not tell the players they will be seeing an additional $1500 in the pot. Say, "Hey, we're paying this guy, you players come out and have a tournament, ran by this guy."

I have ran a couple tournaments, two-day tournaments with calcuttas, all I asked for was free entry. The venue took money for table time and placed two other players in the tournament. When asked about the tournament funds, I informed everyone who asked exactly where the money was. No illusions, no deceit. In the 2 I ran $1000 added advertised, about $700 (mostly due to the 3 free entries) additional was actually in the pot.

If I offer you 50 lbs of gold for the price of 40 lbs of gold but have to give 10 lbs to a processor in order to prep it for you... you are still only receiving 40 lbs of gold for the price of 40 lbs of gold. Nothing added.
 
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iba7467 said:
Please, let me sign up. $3865 for 3 weekends work. I am not even berating the tournament directors for this. If their fee is that high, so be it, but do not tell the players they will be seeing an additional $1500 in the pot. Say, "Hey, we're paying this guy, you players come out and have a tournament, ran by this guy."

I have ran a couple tournaments, two-day tournaments with calcuttas, all I asked for was free entry. The venue took money for table time and placed two other players in the tournament. When asked about the tournament funds, I informed everyone who asked exactly where the money was. No illusions, no deceit. In the 2 I ran $1000 added advertised, about $700 (mostly due to the 3 free entries) additional was actually in the pot.
Click to expand...

$3865 for 3 weekends work plus all the travel time to and from, and the countless hours promoting, negotiating, setting up etc..etc.....Hotel rooms, gasoline, vehicle payments, eating on the road, phone bills etc...etc.... in reality if they are successful at it then its a modest living at best, with having to be on the road ALL the time.

But I see your point, your saying they should advertise the chop.
 
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I am not arguing whether tournament directors earn the money.

My point is that added money is not added money if it goes to pay other people/table time. Truth in advertising is all I am asking. I also understand "based on a minimum" number of players. My issue is only with advertising 3 or more times the amount of actual added money to the players to get participation in a tournament.
 
iba7467 said:
Please, let me sign up. $3865 for 3 weekends work. I am not even berating the tournament directors for this. If their fee is that high, so be it, but do not tell the players they will be seeing an additional $1500 in the pot. Say, "Hey, we're paying this guy, you players come out and have a tournament, ran by this guy."

I have ran a couple tournaments, two-day tournaments with calcuttas, all I asked for was free entry. The venue took money for table time and placed two other players in the tournament. When asked about the tournament funds, I informed everyone who asked exactly where the money was. No illusions, no deceit. In the 2 I ran $1000 added advertised, about $700 (mostly due to the 3 free entries) additional was actually in the pot.

If I offer you 50 lbs of gold for the price of 40 lbs of gold but have to give 10 lbs to a processor in order to prep it for you... you are still only receiving 40 lbs of gold for the price of 40 lbs of gold. Nothing added.[/QUOTE

I guess if you think you are being taken advantage of maybe you should not play in these tournments. On the other hand if the promoters can't make some money way would they keep putting on the tournments. The love of the game goes so far. The people running the regional tours are helping to keep this game alive and should be compensated, fairly, for their efforts.
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IMHO, we should count ourselves lucky we HAVE any decent tournaments to go to. Why? Well, as a whole, poolplayers tend to be rather whiney.. And I am amazed the TDs can put up with it, actually...

Poolplayers as a whole also tend not to support the venues the tournaments are held at, unless there is little choice. I used to go to lots of tourneys in WA state, and a big complaint of a lot of roomowners was how all the pool players would come and stay for the entire tourney, and only drink coffee or soda, if that. The players would go to McDonald's to grab lunch rather than supporting the venue.

I understand the reasoning behind it, however. As a group, (good) poolplayers are broke as a joke. They can't really afford to buy a moderate cost lunch at every place they play a tourney at. Fair enough.

As far as the "false advertising" for added money.. Here's my take on that...

The developing players are gonna travel to where the good players are playing, reagardless of money added not being up to snuff. They are there scalp-hunting. The good players... Are looking for a free ride. They want to pay a $25.00 entry fee, and win $3000.00 for first place. Ain't gonna happen.

So, the TDs use a little "creative advertising" to get the good players in, in hopes that the other players will follow, and they will hopefully be able to come close enough on the money added that everyone does not string them up.

The TDs HAVE to do some "creative advertising" on the money added thing, or the good players will not deem it worth their time to come. Without the good players, you lose a further certain percentage of the field that is looking for top competition.

It would be great if it weren't this way... But until either pool itself becomes more lucrative, or the poolplayers as a whole start getting better jobs, and start being able to afford to play for the joy of the game rather than money, then it's probably not going to change.

I don't know how to solve the problem, but one thing I do know is this... I would probably travel 40+ miles, and pay a $50.00 entry fee, just for the chance to play a champion, and I am not even looking for a payout.. Just a scalp.

Russ
 
iba7467 said:
Please, let me sign up. $3865 for 3 weekends work. I am not even berating the tournament directors for this. If their fee is that high, so be it, but do not tell the players they will be seeing an additional $1500 in the pot. Say, "Hey, we're paying this guy, you players come out and have a tournament, ran by this guy."

I have ran a couple tournaments, two-day tournaments with calcuttas, all I asked for was free entry. The venue took money for table time and placed two other players in the tournament. When asked about the tournament funds, I informed everyone who asked exactly where the money was. No illusions, no deceit. In the 2 I ran $1000 added advertised, about $700 (mostly due to the 3 free entries) additional was actually in the pot.

If I offer you 50 lbs of gold for the price of 40 lbs of gold but have to give 10 lbs to a processor in order to prep it for you... you are still only receiving 40 lbs of gold for the price of 40 lbs of gold. Nothing added.
Click to expand...

I would like to see tournament promoters spelling out ALL OF THE DETAILS, especially the FEES. A tournament director fee is a joke IMHO.

My whiney azz doesn't like tournament promoters who advertise $5000.00 added if full field and then you have to hunt and peck to find out what a full field is.

My whiney azz also dislikes tournament promoters who advertise the bar table tournament but don't say anything about green fees. If it is a bar table tournament, you had better take into consideration that at $1.00 per game in a race to 9, that it could easily cost you and your opponent $15.00 PER MATCH. In many tournaments the green fee is seldom over $30.00. If you've got a field of 128, you could easily be looking at an additional $100 in addition to the entry fee and other expenses. The longer the race the higher the cost per match on coin operated tables. The larger the field, the additional cost of lodging.

That's one of the reason's I created the word template for pool tournaments flyers. It is a guide for tournament promoters to provide all of the details that players need to make an informed decision. It is far better to have the players knowing exactly what they can expect in expenditures rather than having a bunch of whining azzes. Just my $.02.

JoeyA
 
I understand what iba7467 is saying. He's not against the TD's or owners or anyone else making profit. He's just pissed at the misleading advertising, and I agree with him.
 
Tim5000 said:
I understand what iba7467 is saying. He's not against the TD's or owners or anyone else making profit. He's just pissed at the misleading advertising, and I agree with him.
Click to expand...


Makes sense to me as well...

Honesty is hard to find in the pool world... :(
 
Just out of curiosity. Does anybody find anything misleading about the way I present the Viking Tour advertisements ?

CURRENT EXAMPLE

$2,000 GUARANTEED Added

December 8-9 at 1pm
"OPEN" Event - $1,500 Added
$1,000 Guaranteed to 1ST Place
The event is race to 7W/7L on 9' tables

December 9th at 1pm (Sunday)
"AMATEUR" Event - $500 Added
The event is race to 5W/5L on 9' tables

Players Billiards
1500 54th Street - Columbus, GA 706-653-0106
$10 DISCOUNT for All Pool League Players with current league ID
FREE Entry Fee + FREE Tour Card for Non-Pro Women and JR Players
GA Smoking Laws Restrict This Establishment To Age 18 & Over Only


Open Event Info:
$1,000 Guaranteed to 1ST Place
$55 Entry Fee
(Inc. $15 for Table & Reg. fee)
Double Elimination
World Standardized Rules
Anyone Can Play
Added Prize Money Guaranteed
2 Day Event - $20/$30 Tour Card Fee
Player Auction Starts 1pm $10 Minimum Bid is Optional by Player
$10 DISCOUNT for All Pool League Players with current league ID
FREE Entry Fee + FREE Tour Card for Non-Pro Women and JR Players
FREE Tour Card for SR Players (age 65+)
FREE Tour Card for all Active or Retired Military


Amateur Event Info:
$45 Entry Fee
(Inc. $15 for Table & Reg. fee)
Double Elimination
World Standardized Rules
Amateurs Only
Added Prize Money Guaranteed
1 Day Event - $20/$30 Tour Card Fee
Player Auction Starts at 1pm $10 Minimum Bid is Optional by Player
$10 DISCOUNT for All Pool League Players with current league ID
FREE Entry Fee + FREE Tour Card for Non-Pro Women and JR Players
FREE Tour Card for SR Players (age 65+)
FREE Tour Card for all Active or Retired Military
 
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No Mike, but I would love to see some color and styling in the text itself! It's kind of hard to read just straight through black in white! :p
 
MikeJanis said:
Just out of curiosity. Does anybody find anything misleading about the way I present the Viking Tour advertisements ?

CURRENT EXAMPLE

$2,000 GUARANTEED Added

December 8-9 at 1pm
"OPEN" Event - $1,500 Added
$1,000 Guaranteed to 1ST Place
The event is race to 7W/7L on 9' tables

December 9th at 1pm (Sunday)
"AMATEUR" Event - $500 Added
The event is race to 5W/5L on 9' tables

Players Billiards
1500 54th Street - Columbus, GA 706-653-0106
$10 DISCOUNT for All Pool League Players with current league ID
FREE Entry Fee + FREE Tour Card for Non-Pro Women and JR Players
GA Smoking Laws Restrict This Establishment To Age 18 & Over Only


Open Event Info:
$1,000 Guaranteed to 1ST Place
$55 Entry Fee
(Inc. $15 for Table & Reg. fee)
Double Elimination
World Standardized Rules
Anyone Can Play
Added Prize Money Guaranteed
2 Day Event - $20/$30 Tour Card Fee
Player Auction Starts 1pm $10 Minimum Bid is Optional by Player
$10 DISCOUNT for All Pool League Players with current league ID
FREE Entry Fee + FREE Tour Card for Non-Pro Women and JR Players
FREE Tour Card for SR Players (age 65+)
FREE Tour Card for all Active or Retired Military


Amateur Event Info:
$45 Entry Fee
(Inc. $15 for Table & Reg. fee)
Double Elimination
World Standardized Rules
Amateurs Only
Added Prize Money Guaranteed
1 Day Event - $20/$30 Tour Card Fee
Player Auction Starts at 1pm $10 Minimum Bid is Optional by Player
$10 DISCOUNT for All Pool League Players with current league ID
FREE Entry Fee + FREE Tour Card for Non-Pro Women and JR Players
FREE Tour Card for SR Players (age 65+)
FREE Tour Card for all Active or Retired Military
Click to expand...

I had to read carefully to conjure up any questions. One question I could think of is about the non-pro women and JR Players. The way I read it, their entry fees and tour fees cost them nothing. Does the house or the tour pay their entry fees?

Just out of curiosity, have any JR players or non-pro women ever cashed in the tournament? It's always nice to see the ladies and youngsters competing.

And the mother of all questions, does the split per centage paid to the different places change from tournament to tournament or is it consistently the same percentages? If it is the same, what are they for the different places? (Always looking for payouts that increase tournament participation).

That's about all I could muster for curiosity's sake.

Oh yeah, I forgot, how much is your net annual earnings after expenses and taxes? :D :D :D Just kidding. Seriously, just kidding, but only about your earnings. :)

And Smorg, please no comedy relief about that, "you know what they say about curiosity and the cat.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
I had to read carefully to conjure up any questions. One question I could think of is about the non-pro women and JR Players. The way I read it, their entry fees and tour fees cost them nothing. Does the house or the tour pay their entry fees?

Just out of curiosity, have any JR players or non-pro women ever cashed in the tournament? It's always nice to see the ladies and youngsters competing.

And the mother of all questions, does the split per centage paid to the different places change from tournament to tournament or is it consistently the same percentages? If it is the same, what are they for the different places? (Always looking for payouts that increase tournament participation).

That's about all I could muster for curiosity's sake.

Oh yeah, I forgot, how much is your net annual earnings after expenses and taxes? :D :D :D Just kidding. Seriously, just kidding, but only about your earnings. :)

And Smorg, please no comedy relief about that, "you know what they say about curiosity and the cat.

JoeyA
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FREE entry fees and tour cards are just that. ABSOLUTELY FREE. Nobody pays and no money goes into the prize fund. Currently if a FREE player cashes in the evnt they are paid in products not cash. However, if the FREE player chooses to PAY they will win cash. It's their choice before the start of the event. When we were on a learning curve with the FREE Entries ADAM PENDLEY from NC (A JR Player) won a tour event in Hickory and was subsequently paid in full. The goal of our FREE entry program is twofold, 1. To get players interested again into the competition of our sport so it will grow for the future and 2. So families can come out and play. We are currently experiencing Fathers bring their children along with Mothers bringing kids and Husbands bringing Wives and such. It is a very good thing for the sport and the room owners.

The tournament percentages are always very close. They vary because we round the number usually to whole numbers by 10's. We pay on a scale of 25% of the field that paid to get into the event. Last weeks Open was something like 44 players with 6 of them free which is the same as 38 paid players with 25% of that being eight places paid.

Here is an example of the payouts from the last event in NC
From: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81564
1. $1,000 tourney + $750 Auction
2. $600 tourney + $400 Auction
3. $400 tourney + $150 auction
4. $300 tourney + $ 80 auction
5/6 $200 each tourney
7/8 $120 each tourney

There were 6 Free Entries for the Women and JR players + 8 Pool League Discounts and 3 SR player discounts and 2 Military discounts.
The open picks in the players auction were: Tourney Payouts total = $40 from entry fee from the 38 paid players - (minus $80 for the Pool League Player Discounts) = $1,440. Added money = $1,500 so the total prize fund in the tourney = $2,940.

Since I know the # Guru's will be going nuts figuring everything out I'll give you a little more info.

Expenses realized just for this event =
Travel = Approx 700 miles (11 Hours) Gas used = 63.6 Gallons X $2.90 = $191.4
Advertising (Direct PostCard Mailing List = 700 pieces x .26 (Stamps) = $182 + Printing $60 = $242.00
Time I spent putting labels and stamps on PostCards = Priceless (But it takes my Wife and I about 1.5 Hours)

UNrealized expenses - Food eaten on the road. Tires, Truck, Insurance, 800#, Wooing Sponsors, Storage of sponsors products, Computer, Internet, Magazine ads... Additional Hotel Expenses because of driving too long at night coming home after event that ended at Midnight $60.

After adding in the end of year expenses including $25,000 Guaranteed to our Nationals and other expenses my net profit from this event was.......well lets ay that I would probably do better working at the local Wal-Mart.
 
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Russ Chewning said:
IMHO, we should count ourselves lucky we HAVE any decent tournaments to go to. Why? Well, as a whole, poolplayers tend to be rather whiney.. And I am amazed the TDs can put up with it, actually...

Poolplayers as a whole also tend not to support the venues the tournaments are held at, unless there is little choice. I used to go to lots of tourneys in WA state, and a big complaint of a lot of roomowners was how all the pool players would come and stay for the entire tourney, and only drink coffee or soda, if that. The players would go to McDonald's to grab lunch rather than supporting the venue.

I understand the reasoning behind it, however. As a group, (good) poolplayers are broke as a joke. They can't really afford to buy a moderate cost lunch at every place they play a tourney at. Fair enough.

As far as the "false advertising" for added money.. Here's my take on that...

The developing players are gonna travel to where the good players are playing, reagardless of money added not being up to snuff. They are there scalp-hunting. The good players... Are looking for a free ride. They want to pay a $25.00 entry fee, and win $3000.00 for first place. Ain't gonna happen.

So, the TDs use a little "creative advertising" to get the good players in, in hopes that the other players will follow, and they will hopefully be able to come close enough on the money added that everyone does not string them up.

The TDs HAVE to do some "creative advertising" on the money added thing, or the good players will not deem it worth their time to come. Without the good players, you lose a further certain percentage of the field that is looking for top competition.

It would be great if it weren't this way... But until either pool itself becomes more lucrative, or the poolplayers as a whole start getting better jobs, and start being able to afford to play for the joy of the game rather than money, then it's probably not going to change.

I don't know how to solve the problem, but one thing I do know is this... I would probably travel 40+ miles, and pay a $50.00 entry fee, just for the chance to play a champion, and I am not even looking for a payout.. Just a scalp.

Russ
Click to expand...

I have issues with this. I can easily afford to spend plenty of money at a venue if the food is something I want to eat. At least all the venues I have been to in most of the tri-state area either have crappy food or food that is terrible for you. I try really hard not to eat crappy all the time and to be stuck at a venue all day where the choices are a crappy microwaved hamburger, or french fries, or onion rings, or chicken fingers or whatever other crappy barfood is ridiculous. I would GLADLY support my venue by paying the premium for eating in the venue if the food was a) good and b) had a few healthy choices.

The fact of the matter is most venues add the cheapest food possible (frozen fried foods) that are also the worst possible foods to eat. Then tell you, you can't bring food in (as an aside I would also gladly pay the equivalent of a corkage fee for food - I would vastly prefer to bring in some decent food to, say, my local venue - Amsterdam Billiards, rather than be forced to order one of 5 crappy sandwhiches ordered in bulk and stored in the cooler - be sure you read that right I will gladly give $5 to my venue just for the *priviledge* of bringing my own food in - that would basically be a $5 donation, 100% profit!)

I would also add that paying $3 for a large cup of coffee, also at my local venue, ABC, which I do whenever I am there early. Pretty much constitutes price guaging for a product that costs almost nothing to produce and stock.

I like supporting my venues, I will gladly by food products, beverage producs, pool products. What I hate is being painted into a corner and forced (or given little other option) to buy things I do not want. Also *way* overpaying for things is ridiculous. (as an aside, I would almost never buy any pool product at a store, when buying online is often 10% or 20% cheaper - *but* if the difference were only say 5% I probably would).

obviously I'm in rant mode today...
 
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