Added $$$ = Load of Crap (long but worth it)

[Ktown D]

FREE entry fees and tour cards are just that. ABSOLUTELY FREE. Nobody pays and no money goes into the prize fund. Currently if a FREE player cashes in the evnt they are paid in products not cash. However, if the FREE player chooses to PAY they will win cash. It's their choice before the start of the event. When we were on a learning curve with the FREE Entries ADAM PENDLEY from NC (A JR Player) won a tour event in Hickory and was subsequently paid in full. The goal of our FREE entry program is twofold, 1. To get players interested again into the competition of our sport so it will grow for the future and 2. So families can come out and play. We are currently experiencing Fathers bring their children along with Mothers bringing kids and Husbands bringing Wives and such. It is a very good thing for the sport and the room owners.

The tournament percentages are always very close. They vary because we round the number usually to whole numbers by 10's. We pay on a scale of 25% of the field that paid to get into the event. Last weeks Open was something like 44 players with 6 of them free which is the same as 38 paid players with 25% of that being eight places paid.

Here is an example of the payouts from the last event in NC
From: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81564
1. $1,000 tourney + $750 Auction
2. $600 tourney + $400 Auction
3. $400 tourney + $150 auction
4. $300 tourney + $ 80 auction
5/6 $200 each tourney
7/8 $120 each tourney

There were 6 Free Entries for the Women and JR players + 8 Pool League Discounts and 3 SR player discounts and 2 Military discounts.
The open picks in the players auction were: Tourney Payouts total = $40 from entry fee from the 38 paid players - (minus $80 for the Pool League Player Discounts) = $1,440. Added money = $1,500 so the total prize fund in the tourney = $2,940.

Since I know the # Guru's will be going nuts figuring everything out I'll give you a little more info.

Expenses realized just for this event =
Travel = Approx 700 miles (11 Hours) Gas used = 63.6 Gallons X $2.90 = $191.4
Advertising (Direct PostCard Mailing List = 700 pieces x .26 (Stamps) = $182 + Printing $60 = $242.00
Time I spent putting labels and stamps on PostCards = Priceless (But it takes my Wife and I about 1.5 Hours)

UNrealized expenses - Food eaten on the road. Tires, Truck, Insurance, 800#, Wooing Sponsors, Storage of sponsors products, Computer, Internet, Magazine ads... Additional Hotel Expenses because of driving too long at night coming home after event that ended at Midnight $60.

After adding in the end of year expenses including $25,000 Guaranteed to our Nationals and other expenses my net profit from this event was.......well lets ay that I would probably do better working at the local Wal-Mart.

So you had 38 paid in the open and 32 in the amateur at $15 to you per person, correct? That adds up to 1050.00 if my math is correct. I think that is a fair compensation to run a tournament.

Does that mean you don't take a percentage out of the auction fund? I ask only because I know it is common practice to take monies out of the auction, typically 10%. (although I have heard of some TD's taking 15%)

 

[MikeJanis]

So you had 38 paid in the open and 32 in the amateur at $15 to you per person, correct? That adds up to 1050.00 if my math is correct. I think that is a fair compensation to run a tournament.

Does that mean you don't take a percentage out of the auction fund? I ask only because I know it is common practice to take monies out of the auction, typically 10%. (although I have heard of some TD's taking 15%)

You are close but there were 8 FREE Entries into the Amateur event.

10% is correct.

So it's more like 62 X 15 = 930

Then there the minus expenses just for that event which leaves only $437.

Expenses realized just for this event =
Travel = Approx 700 miles (11 Hours) Gas used = 63.6 Gallons X $2.90 = $191.4
Advertising (Direct PostCard Mailing List = 700 pieces x .26 (Stamps) = $182 + Printing $60 = $242.00
Time I spent putting labels and stamps on PostCards = Priceless (But it takes my Wife and I about 1.5 Hours)


Now those #'rs would be closer to being correct except for the fact that we do not get all of the $15 at every event which is at times shared with the room owner. And the fact that there are many more expenses for the tour than just the ones that are incurred at the events for the overall operation of the tour. Specifically the monies set aside for our $25,000 National Championships and the $15,000 spent for the set-up, promotion and additional help at the Championship event. Usually I hire Scott Smith to help out and I guarantee you his services do not come cheap.

Now to bring the #'rs back on track we are at $437. Now add in $150 for the 10% then add in the TC collected at that event + $320 now subtract the $450 we have to set aside at every event to sustain our national championships. My math brings me to $457 that I get to keep. The only problem with that is I am self employed so I have to pay my own Medical Insurance but we won't count that. Then there are taxes. We wont count that either. How about we count the Truck Payment for traveling to the events. NAH, lets not count that either. How about Brakes and Tires, Oil Changes, 800#, Internet fees, Banner Ads on AZ. How about we just agree that it's barely enough to keep me interested when its all said and done.

Soo lets see the hours spent on this event.

1 Hour packing to go to the event.
11 hours driving to and from the event.
13 hours spent at the event on Saturday with Set-Up and Registrations
13 hours spent at the event on Sunday
1.5 hours for mailing lists
1 hour unpacking and re-stocking.
??? Countless Hours spent getting the rooms to hold event and the sponsors to provide products to the room owners

41.5 Hours over 4 days. (Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon)

457 / 41.5 = $11.01 per hour. And this was a good event.

Not bad if there were not any other expenses.

If my Wife didn't hold a job as a Nurse I guarantee you I would have to find a real job and abandon the tour.

A lot of people don't know that in the beginning and up until 2000 I only ran the tour to support my other billiard related interests. I owned a Vending Co, The Tournament Guide Magazine, TG2 Bar Table Sales. I Brokered used pool rooms in quantity and I owned the Buckeye Pool League. All of which fit together nicely with the tour so I could expand the other enterprises. However when I sold off the the other enterprises the tour stayed because I actualy loved being at the events and running the tour. And that is the only reason I still run it today.

 

[JoeyA]

FREE entry fees and tour cards are just that. ABSOLUTELY FREE. Nobody pays and no money goes into the prize fund. Currently if a FREE player cashes in the evnt they are paid in products not cash. However, if the FREE player chooses to PAY they will win cash. It's their choice before the start of the event. When we were on a learning curve with the FREE Entries ADAM PENDLEY from NC (A JR Player) won a tour event in Hickory and was subsequently paid in full. The goal of our FREE entry program is twofold, 1. To get players interested again into the competition of our sport so it will grow for the future and 2. So families can come out and play. We are currently experiencing Fathers bring their children along with Mothers bringing kids and Husbands bringing Wives and such. It is a very good thing for the sport and the room owners.

The tournament percentages are always very close. They vary because we round the number usually to whole numbers by 10's. We pay on a scale of 25% of the field that paid to get into the event. Last weeks Open was something like 44 players with 6 of them free which is the same as 38 paid players with 25% of that being eight places paid.

Here is an example of the payouts from the last event in NC
From: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=81564
1. $1,000 tourney + $750 Auction
2. $600 tourney + $400 Auction
3. $400 tourney + $150 auction
4. $300 tourney + $ 80 auction
5/6 $200 each tourney
7/8 $120 each tourney

There were 6 Free Entries for the Women and JR players + 8 Pool League Discounts and 3 SR player discounts and 2 Military discounts.
The open picks in the players auction were: Tourney Payouts total = $40 from entry fee from the 38 paid players - (minus $80 for the Pool League Player Discounts) = $1,440. Added money = $1,500 so the total prize fund in the tourney = $2,940.

Since I know the # Guru's will be going nuts figuring everything out I'll give you a little more info.

Expenses realized just for this event =
Travel = Approx 700 miles (11 Hours) Gas used = 63.6 Gallons X $2.90 = $191.4
Advertising (Direct PostCard Mailing List = 700 pieces x .26 (Stamps) = $182 + Printing $60 = $242.00
Time I spent putting labels and stamps on PostCards = Priceless (But it takes my Wife and I about 1.5 Hours)

UNrealized expenses - Food eaten on the road. Tires, Truck, Insurance, 800#, Wooing Sponsors, Storage of sponsors products, Computer, Internet, Magazine ads... Additional Hotel Expenses because of driving too long at night coming home after event that ended at Midnight $60.

After adding in the end of year expenses including $25,000 Guaranteed to our Nationals and other expenses my net profit from this event was.......well lets ay that I would probably do better working at the local Wal-Mart.

I like the way you handle the Free Entries. The 25% of the field is cool. The first and second place finishers get more than 50% of the tournament payout........Initially, I thought that was a little high but I checked my own findings with other successful pool tours and when you pay 8 places, paying 35% and 25% to the first and second place finishers is not uncommon. When some pool tours pay out 16 places, first and second drop down to around 25% & 16%.

Overall, it sounds like you have a nice tour Mike. Wish there was enough interest for you to move down here to the Gulf Coast. Lots of Casinos on Gulf Coast......

Oh yeah, do you play in any of your own tournaments? How many of them do you win?

IRS will never come looking for you. If they do, they won't be coming back for a second look.

JoeyA

 

[MikeJanis]

I like the way you handle the Free Entries. The 25% of the field is cool. The first and second place finishers get more than 50% of the tournament payout........Initially, I thought that was a little high but I checked my own findings with other successful pool tours and when you pay 8 places, paying 35% and 25% to the first and second place finishers is not uncommon. When some pool tours pay out 16 places, first and second drop down to around 25% & 16%.

Overall, it sounds like you have a nice tour Mike. Wish there was enough interest for you to move down here to the Gulf Coast. Lots of Casinos on Gulf Coast......

Oh yeah, do you play in any of your own tournaments? How many of them do you win?

IRS will never come looking for you. If they do, they won't be coming back for a second look.

JoeyA

Win??????? Never

From: http://azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2007.cfm?playernum=3033

Mike Janis

AzB Player Rank: 699
Change from last week: 205

2007 Winnings: $50.00

2007 Tournament Results:
$50.00 9th place Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour Event

2005 Winnings: $50.00

2004 Winnings: $100.00

2003 Winnings: $80.00

The above #rs from AZ are not totally correct.

I took a 3rd in 2003 in the Open division
I took a 3rd in 2006 in the Open division
I also took 2 second place finishes in 2007 in the Amateur Division.

And YES, I play in almost every one of my events and put my money into the prize fund just like everyone else.

I once tried to figure out how much money I put into entry fees over the last 15 years. I estimated it at about $24,000. So far I think I have won back about $2,000 from playing in the events. So I am only stuck about $22,000. 3 Weeks ago Tony Watson gave me the WILD 7, 8 and the break on a Bar Box but the best I could do was break even. (Actually I was up 1 set but told Ton'ys backer that if Tony had to Lie and cheat while giving me ( The Sucker) that spot he should just give it to Tony because he needs the money more than I do. TRUE STORY, it happend at Sporty's in Greenville. After the incident with Tony his backer said I had to play so I broke the balls and just raked them until we were even.)

 

[JoeyA]

Win??????? Never

From: http://azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2007.cfm?playernum=3033

Mike Janis

AzB Player Rank: 699
Change from last week: 205

2007 Winnings: $50.00

2007 Tournament Results:
$50.00 9th place Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour Event

2005 Winnings: $50.00

2004 Winnings: $100.00

2003 Winnings: $80.00

The above #rs from AZ are not totally correct.

I took a 3rd in 2003 in the Open division
I took a 3rd in 2006 in the Open division
I also took 2 second place finishes in 2007 in the Amateur Division.

And YES, I play in almost every one of my events and put my money into the prize fund just like everyone else.

Yeah, I can see IRS would have very little use in auditing you.

The other tournament players don't have much to fear from your playing either.
Later,
JoeyA

 

[MikeJanis]

I
Overall, it sounds like you have a nice tour Mike. Wish there was enough interest for you to move down here to the Gulf Coast. Lots of Casinos on Gulf Coast......JoeyA

Thanks Joey.

I would love to bring the Tour to the Gulf Coast but I need at least 4-6 different rooms willing to hold the events so its worth it to the players that pay tour cards.

Mj

 

[JoeyA]

Banger's Paradise

Thanks Joey.

I would love to bring the Tour to the Gulf Coast but I need at least 4-6 different rooms willing to hold the events so its worth it to the players that pay tour cards.

Mj

It seems that there are a couple of rooms on the Gulf Coast that have nice, semi-consistently held tournaments and they draw from 40-64 players. But other than those two rooms, the rest of the rooms seem to be "Banger's Paradise" with little interest in having regular regional pool tournaments.

I guess that is what makes this Gulfcoast so attractive for road players. EASY ACTION, gambling (pool and casino), drinking and general debauchery 24/7.

With so much to do in so little of an area, I guess it makes getting a regular tour here difficult. Good luck and give your wife a big hug when she least expects it for me. She must be a Saint. I've got an angel, too.

JoeyA

 

[MikeJanis]

Good luck and give your wife a big hug when she least expects it for me. She must be a Saint. I've got an angel, too.

JoeyA

Yep, she is. She usually works 7p to 7a during the week (Usually 3 Nights) then travels to the events with me on the weekends. Before we met in January she had never stepped foot in a pool room before much less even heard of pool tournaments. Now I cant get her to stay away from them. She enjoys hanging out at the tournaments as much as I do.

Mj

 

[corvette1340]

Mike,
We all know you are getting rich on the Viking Tour. How else could you buy me a shot at each event I attend?

 

[MikeJanis]

Mike,
We all know you are getting rich on the Viking Tour. How else could you buy me a shot at each event I attend?

Dang, that's another HUGE expense that I forgot about.

I'll be in Athen's in Feb. I'm pretty sure its your turn to buy.

Mj

 

[Perk]

So it's Expenses realized just for this event =
Travel = Approx 700 miles (11 Hours) Gas used = 63.6 Gallons X $2.90 = $191.4

Wowser, to think I get pissed at my 16 miles per gallon in my truck. Your at 11/gallon!

 

[MikeJanis]

Wowser, to think I get pissed at my 16 miles per gallon in my truck. Your at 11/gallon!

11 miles per gallon. IT SUCKS ! I'm jus hoping the truck holds up until A: I can afford a new one or B: They make and American Truck with 40MPG.

Right now it's also going through 1 quart of Oil every 1K miles. It's not leaking, just burning up.


The big problem is that for each event we bring on the average about 1,400lbs with us to each event. Mostly product from the sponsors, the Tour Balls and displays we use at each event.

 

[JoeyA]

Wowser, to think I get pissed at my 16 miles per gallon in my truck. Your at 11/gallon!

We AZers could split an atom if we tried.
JoeyA

 

[corvette1340]

Dang, that's another HUGE expense that I forgot about.

I'll be in Athen's in Feb. I'm pretty sure its your turn to buy.

Mj

One thing that nobody can ever accuse me of is shying away from buying shots, for EVERYBODY! I like for everyone to have as much fun as I am having.

 

[Ktown D]

You are close but there were 8 FREE Entries into the Amateur event.

10% is correct.

So it's more like 62 X 15 = 930

Then there the minus expenses just for that event which leaves only $437.

Expenses realized just for this event =
Travel = Approx 700 miles (11 Hours) Gas used = 63.6 Gallons X $2.90 = $191.4
Advertising (Direct PostCard Mailing List = 700 pieces x .26 (Stamps) = $182 + Printing $60 = $242.00
Time I spent putting labels and stamps on PostCards = Priceless (But it takes my Wife and I about 1.5 Hours)


Now those #'rs would be closer to being correct except for the fact that we do not get all of the $15 at every event which is at times shared with the room owner. And the fact that there are many more expenses for the tour than just the ones that are incurred at the events for the overall operation of the tour. Specifically the monies set aside for our $25,000 National Championships and the $15,000 spent for the set-up, promotion and additional help at the Championship event. Usually I hire Scott Smith to help out and I guarantee you his services do not come cheap.

Now to bring the #'rs back on track we are at $437. Now add in $150 for the 10% then add in the TC collected at that event + $320 now subtract the $450 we have to set aside at every event to sustain our national championships. My math brings me to $457 that I get to keep. The only problem with that is I am self employed so I have to pay my own Medical Insurance but we won't count that. Then there are taxes. We wont count that either. How about we count the Truck Payment for traveling to the events. NAH, lets not count that either. How about Brakes and Tires, Oil Changes, 800#, Internet fees, Banner Ads on AZ. How about we just agree that it's barely enough to keep me interested when its all said and done.

Soo lets see the hours spent on this event.

1 Hour packing to go to the event.
11 hours driving to and from the event.
13 hours spent at the event on Saturday with Set-Up and Registrations
13 hours spent at the event on Sunday
1.5 hours for mailing lists
1 hour unpacking and re-stocking.
??? Countless Hours spent getting the rooms to hold event and the sponsors to provide products to the room owners

41.5 Hours over 4 days. (Fri, Sat, Sun, Mon)

457 / 41.5 = $11.01 per hour. And this was a good event.

Not bad if there were not any other expenses.

If my Wife didn't hold a job as a Nurse I guarantee you I would have to find a real job and abandon the tour.

A lot of people don't know that in the beginning and up until 2000 I only ran the tour to support my other billiard related interests. I owned a Vending Co, The Tournament Guide Magazine, TG2 Bar Table Sales. I Brokered used pool rooms in quantity and I owned the Buckeye Pool League. All of which fit together nicely with the tour so I could expand the other enterprises. However when I sold off the the other enterprises the tour stayed because I actualy loved being at the events and running the tour. And that is the only reason I still run it today.

Thank you for the detailed response. I would hate to have to try to survive off 450 per week. That equates to roughly only 23k per year if you have an event EVERY week. I truly don't see how you make it if that is as well as you can expect to come out if this is considered a "good event". I would hope that you have other irons in the fire.

Best of luck.

 

[MikeJanis]

One thing that nobody can ever accuse me of is shying away from buying shots, for EVERYBODY! I like for everyone to have as much fun as I am having.

corvette, I am not accusing you of being cheap. In fact, I am looking forward to sleeping under the tables again and passing out in strangers cars at bars. Mj likes it when you buy.

 

[jamaicajoes]

This is Bill from Jamaica Joe's. I agree with all of you. If you saw my tournament ad, and the tournament results, I said I would add $3000.00 and I added $3000 even with only 31 players. The payouts were very good for such a short field. Also in my ad , I said that the tournament would be played on 10 75 cent valley bar tables. I spelled out what was going to happen and that was what happened. I would like to see other room owners follow suit. Don't you agree?

 

[watchez]

Just out of curiosity. Does anybody find anything misleading about the way I present the Viking Tour advertisements ?

Mike-

I like all your math on what the tournament itself brings compared to what you expend to be there. I agree with all your expenses except food. I think, no matter where you were, you would still have to eat.

No one can argue that you most likely have the biggest in # of events & # if players tournament tour going. No one can argue that it is a big undertaking & takes a lot of your time and effort and organizational skills. You should feel proud of what you have brought to the US pool player. I am serious about this. Your tournaments, with their payouts, seem to be a great deal for the player. This, you should also be proud of.

But--Can you also please tell us what the hosting pool room itself pays you to be there for the tournament and be apart of the Viking Tour? Please add this to the money that you profit from the tournament itself to come up with a total 'win' before travel expenses for Mike Janis for the weekend. Also, please do not qualify your answer with the standard response of all the free promotional/sponsor items they receive and need to sell at a later date. We have rehashed that story line to death. Just the blanket cost that the room is required to pay to host the tournament. It is late and if I missed this in one of your posts, I apologize.

 

[BreakersOne]

After adding in the end of year expenses including $25,000 Guaranteed to our Nationals and other expenses my net profit from this event was.......well lets ay that I would probably do better working at the local Wal-Mart.[/QUOTE]

Well Mike I hear they are hiring now, plus you will get a 10% employee discount on everything you buy and also they have good benefits.

The application is done on a computer so you dont have to write alot, when filling out a application.. . .

 

[MikeJanis]

Mike-

I like all your math on what the tournament itself brings compared to what you expend to be there. I agree with all your expenses except food. I think, no matter where you were, you would still have to eat.

No one can argue that you most likely have the biggest in # of events & # if players tournament tour going. No one can argue that it is a big undertaking & takes a lot of your time and effort and organizational skills. You should feel proud of what you have brought to the US pool player. I am serious about this. Your tournaments, with their payouts, seem to be a great deal for the player. This, you should also be proud of.

But--Can you also please tell us what the hosting pool room itself pays you to be there for the tournament and be apart of the Viking Tour? Please add this to the money that you profit from the tournament itself to come up with a total 'win' before travel expenses for Mike Janis for the weekend. Also, please do not qualify your answer with the standard response of all the free promotional/sponsor items they receive and need to sell at a later date. We have rehashed that story line to death. Just the blanket cost that the room is required to pay to host the tournament. It is late and if I missed this in one of your posts, I apologize.

Watchez, you should of stopped typing after the 2nd paragraph. That was so sweet of you honey. Several months ago you missed a very important post. It was the one that covered that. You know, the one the stated how we raised our added monies over the last year from $1,000 added to $2,000 added per event without raising our prices to room owners and now we are giving them more products than ever before and adding more money to more tournments for the players than ever before.

I'm sure you read it. You follow my posts around from group to group like a lost puppy dog.

Go fetch it, read it over then get back to me.

Ah, never mind fetching. I sent you a 7500 character PM. Actually it's 6 different PM's (Way too long for one PM). It should explain everyting wholeheartidly, completely and sincerely. It's the best info I can give you. I hope this time our PM (Private Message) will stay that way.

Sorry about the puppy-dog crack and the fetching thing but I know we understand each other.


Respectfully,

Mj