wrist spin
do you promise that it will make me a player if I don't use my wrist?:grin:
do you promise that it will make me a player if I don't use my wrist?:grin:
Addressing the cue ball high and going low on the final stroke for draw.
- Thread starter Jerry Yost
- Start date
Just plain wrong. You can swipe sideways at the cueball, off direct aligment of the shot (also known as back hand english) and your wrist may add this. You can also increase cue speed by using some wrist motion on your stroke, adding more spin. But your wrist doesn't cause the cue ball to spin, hitting it off center does.
As for aiming off center, there is nothing methodical about it, as much as we'd like to think it is some top-secret aiming method. It is simply and individual preference. Both Basavich and Bustamante have a pre-stroke that differs significantly in mechanics from their final stroke, but since that difference is consistent they've learned to adjust.
There is an attitude in pool, along with many sports, that there is some large secret esoteric body of knowledge that involves doing minute physical actions or some odd visualization that will automatically help your game. I killed a year of practice trying to find and "remember" these little gems that would make me pro. At some point I started playing pro players more, and lo and behold, they had no secret method. They simply stood still, knew where to aim, and delivered the cue consistently. Once I realized this, I stopped searching for weird things that may or may not help and focused on the simple things I knew would help, and dare I say I may be able to beat a B player now every once in a while
. Just last week I came across a player in a bar who had a nice stroke but complained of his draw and asked me how I got the action I did. He asked "its something in the wrist right, you turn and snap it, a great hustler told me this". I had him line up the shot, make sure his cue was low and level (he was not cueing low enough) and that he followed through the ball, and stroke slowly so as not to punch the ball, and low and behold he had a great draw. As much as we might wish there is a hidden kung fu of pool that can only become known to you if you are a pro and a zen master, in reality the game is about doing all the simple, obvious stuff very consistently.
Sometimes, the most obvious things are the most difficult to see. It all comes down to a piece of wood, a little piece of leather, and some balls.
Good point!!!
Steve
The only player that comes to mind when I think of this is Doug "Hail Storm" Hale, from Phoenix Az. When he was shooting his best back in the late 80's and early 90's, he was a joy to watch on the bar box. He had a very fluid stroke and as many have said, he was poetry in motion. I found it fascinating how his pre shot routine was lining up almost to miss the left side of the cueball. It did not matter if his final stroke was low left,high right, follow, draw or anything. He always looked like he was going to miss the left edge of the cue ball on his warm up strokes.
I have asked a few people about his stroke and pre shot routine, so far no answers. He was originally from Iowa I beleive. Maybe somebody up there knows something about this technique?
As with everything in pool, you dont have to look too far to find both ends of the spectrum.
Buddy Hall moved his wrist left and right to apply the wanted english. He called it tuck and roll. While the english wasnt applied due to the movement itself it did make the tip strike the cueball in the proper place to get the english he wanted. From what I remember Buddy was a pretty good player
As far as no good players with a static wrist, if memory serves CJ Wiley didnt move his wrist at all during the stroke and didnt play too bad.
Arguments can be made for both styles of play. You can also say that so and so could have been a better player if he would have (insert current hot topic here).
Woody
Buddy Hall moved his wrist left and right to apply the wanted english. He called it tuck and roll. While the english wasnt applied due to the movement itself it did make the tip strike the cueball in the proper place to get the english he wanted. From what I remember Buddy was a pretty good player
As far as no good players with a static wrist, if memory serves CJ Wiley didnt move his wrist at all during the stroke and didnt play too bad.
Arguments can be made for both styles of play. You can also say that so and so could have been a better player if he would have (insert current hot topic here).
Woody
I can't do much of it but I vote for the fluid wrist, follow through, and maybe there's something to that aiming at some other spot. Bustamante is the best example, but there are a number of other Filipinos. It seems to me Bustamante is always cuing low, but you don't know where he is going to hit the ball or what the spin is until the shot itself. And I've seen guys cue right and hit left. I wish I could do that stuff.
Why???
Why would you want to make the game more complicated than it already is?
Steve
BECAUSE IT LOOKS AWESOME!!
I've also heard the explanation that some players would "disguise" their shots, making it difficult to tell how a particular shot would be executed, so that their opponent would not benefit by watching them. I don't believe this to be true.
I've also heard the explanation that some players would "disguise" their shots, making it difficult to tell how a particular shot would be executed, so that their opponent would not benefit by watching them. I don't believe this to be true.
A guy around here does this to see the line of the shot. It looks weird but he makes a lot of long shots. He would be about a 5 in the APA.
Static-wristed snooker players among the best potters (ball-pocketers) in the world
Woody:
Concerning the bolded stuff above, heartily agreed. Watch any consistently-good snooker player (Ronnie O'Sullivan, Jimmy White, Stephen Hendry, Steve Davis, et al.), and all you will see are static wrists. Fluidity in the wrist is a "no-no" in snooker, if you're going for any semblance of accuracy. (In fact, a mainstay of snooker's "proper fundamentals" is to minimize and eliminate any joints in the body that have nothing do to with the forward swing of the cue from the elbow, or in some cases, from the shoulder with the elbow-drop technique. Any other joints in the body are frozen and faced into the shot [e.g. the knees, via pointing both feet directly into the shot], so that even if those joints moved inadvertently, the motion is into the shot and not sideways, so as not to inadvertently steer the cue.)
The wrist, even though it has a little bit of capability to pivot in the direction of cue travel, is primarily designed such that side-to-side motion of the cue is much easier. Think of this as you holding your hand in the air in front of your face, and bending the wrist towards the direction of the palm of the hand, and away from the direction of the palm of the hand. Most people can go 90-degrees in either direction. From the wrist joint's design perspective, *that* motion is much easier, more instinctive, and less restricted than trying to tilt your hand from side-to-side as if you're waving "hello." The wrist just works easier going forward and backward in the direction of the facing of the palm. Unfortunately, this "forward and backward" motion of the wrist does not correspond with a cue gripped in the hand, because that kind of movement in the wrist would then be considered "side to side" motion from the cue's perspective (also called "yaw" in aerodynamics terms).
Therefore, virtually all snooker players play with a locked wrist, and use adjustments in the grip instead (i.e. opening and closing) to compensate for the varying angle of the player's forearm to the cue throughout the stroke.
You bring that loose snappy wrist to snooker, and you'll see how inadequate it is related to accuracy, especially on a full 12' x 6' table with those smaller size balls and pockets!
-Sean
As with everything in pool, you dont have to look too far to find both ends of the spectrum.
Buddy Hall moved his wrist left and right to apply the wanted english. He called it tuck and roll. While the english wasnt applied due to the movement itself it did make the tip strike the cueball in the proper place to get the english he wanted. From what I remember Buddy was a pretty good player
As far as no good players with a static wrist, if memory serves CJ Wiley didnt move his wrist at all during the stroke and didnt play too bad.
Arguments can be made for both styles of play. You can also say that so and so could have been a better player if he would have (insert current hot topic here).
Woody
Woody:
Concerning the bolded stuff above, heartily agreed. Watch any consistently-good snooker player (Ronnie O'Sullivan, Jimmy White, Stephen Hendry, Steve Davis, et al.), and all you will see are static wrists. Fluidity in the wrist is a "no-no" in snooker, if you're going for any semblance of accuracy. (In fact, a mainstay of snooker's "proper fundamentals" is to minimize and eliminate any joints in the body that have nothing do to with the forward swing of the cue from the elbow, or in some cases, from the shoulder with the elbow-drop technique. Any other joints in the body are frozen and faced into the shot [e.g. the knees, via pointing both feet directly into the shot], so that even if those joints moved inadvertently, the motion is into the shot and not sideways, so as not to inadvertently steer the cue.)
The wrist, even though it has a little bit of capability to pivot in the direction of cue travel, is primarily designed such that side-to-side motion of the cue is much easier. Think of this as you holding your hand in the air in front of your face, and bending the wrist towards the direction of the palm of the hand, and away from the direction of the palm of the hand. Most people can go 90-degrees in either direction. From the wrist joint's design perspective, *that* motion is much easier, more instinctive, and less restricted than trying to tilt your hand from side-to-side as if you're waving "hello." The wrist just works easier going forward and backward in the direction of the facing of the palm. Unfortunately, this "forward and backward" motion of the wrist does not correspond with a cue gripped in the hand, because that kind of movement in the wrist would then be considered "side to side" motion from the cue's perspective (also called "yaw" in aerodynamics terms).
Therefore, virtually all snooker players play with a locked wrist, and use adjustments in the grip instead (i.e. opening and closing) to compensate for the varying angle of the player's forearm to the cue throughout the stroke.
You bring that loose snappy wrist to snooker, and you'll see how inadequate it is related to accuracy, especially on a full 12' x 6' table with those smaller size balls and pockets!
-Sean
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I take this to mean that if you drew a straight line down the outside of the player's forearm to the knuckle of their middle finger, the line would stay straight during the entire stroke.
For a "wristy" stroke, the bottom of that line would be back at the end of the back stroke and move forward as the arm comes forward. It's pretty easy to see how much that would increase the speed of the shot if the movement were uniform, but presumably most of the motion is saved for right before impact.
Another kind of wrist action you might call "hinge" or "neutral" wrist. In that kind, the line on the hand maintains a constant position (roughly perpendicular) relative to the cue stick. The hand would actually rotate in a direction opposite to the "wristy" motion, so that as the hand comes back, the wrist rotates forward some to keep a full grip on the stick.
I wonder if anyone has done a video analysis of this, preferably with a line drawn down the arm and hand.
Classic, now the real question is does whitey say howdy back?:smile:
Just plain wrong. You can swipe sideways at the cueball, off direct aligment of the shot (also known as back hand english) and your wrist may add this. You can also increase cue speed by using some wrist motion on your stroke, adding more spin. But your wrist doesn't cause the cue ball to spin, hitting it off center does.
As for aiming off center, there is nothing methodical about it, as much as we'd like to think it is some top-secret aiming method. It is simply and individual preference. Both Basavich and Bustamante have a pre-stroke that differs significantly in mechanics from their final stroke, but since that difference is consistent they've learned to adjust.
There is an attitude in pool, along with many sports, that there is some large secret esoteric body of knowledge that involves doing minute physical actions or some odd visualization that will automatically help your game. I killed a year of practice trying to find and "remember" these little gems that would make me pro. At some point I started playing pro players more, and lo and behold, they had no secret method. They simply stood still, knew where to aim, and delivered the cue consistently. Once I realized this, I stopped searching for weird things that may or may not help and focused on the simple things I knew would help, and dare I say I may be able to beat a B player now every once in a while
Great insight henho.
I identify with your thought process on what the journey to better pool is...
As far as addressing the cue ball only the shooter themselves knows what they are doing. When I line up on a shot regardless of what spin I use I might dive my tip into the cloth during some practice strokes. The only thing I'm trying to do though is line up my stroke to the cue ball. The lower your stick is the more of the cue ball you can see.
Sometimes when watching it is impossible to understand what someone might be doing....
Dudley
The more movement the greater the chance of missing the shot. It's ill-advised to move from top to bottom or side to side when aiming and shooting. It's about being PRECISE. Precision is the name of the game and precision won't be achieved by aiming at one point and then moving the cue all over the place when striking the cb. It's just common sense.
I think that the fewer muscles and joints involved in the stroke the fewer the chances for error. So I'm a proponent of minimal wrist movement and NO cue movement after addressing the cb. Move from the upper stance to the shot and stay put or get up and start over again.
I think that the fewer muscles and joints involved in the stroke the fewer the chances for error. So I'm a proponent of minimal wrist movement and NO cue movement after addressing the cb. Move from the upper stance to the shot and stay put or get up and start over again.
David may be saying you get more speed in your stroke with some "wrist snap", and the greater speed produces more spin. That's true in a sense: you can get a little more speed with some wrist motion and that would result in more RPMs on the CB.
But it would also result in more speed on the CB, so the spin-to-speed ratio wouldn't change, and that's the important thing for the effect you want from spin (changing the angle off a rail by a certain amount, for instance).
It's not really due to the wrist action itself but to a faster stroke overall - the same as speeding up your forearm and keeping your wrist stiff.
I don't snap my wrist for speed, but I like a loose wrist anyway because it keeps my stroke more relaxed - I think I can move my forearm more accurately that way so I can hit the cue ball where I want to and don't need as much speed in my stroke.
pj
chgo
I play with a guy almost every day, who even though I know what he is doing, and how he aims..... he still does it. Even when no one else is around. Its a habit he got himself into over the years to hide where his cue is pointing.
Chuck
I think danny does this to the extreme. I'm not positive, but watch chris bartram and dennis hatch because I think they shoot left to right a little bit but not to the extreme like danny.
I'm sure people do it for this reason, but it's pretty silly - anybody can tell how you hit the CB without even seeing you do it, simply by how the CB moves. For a certain amount of speed and spin there's only one way to hit the CB, and it's the same whether you're obvious about it or try to hide it.
pj
chgo
and this is why I haven't heard of you