How much difference is there between the resulting foot positions for the two approaches?
Advantages or Disadvantages does it make a difference Stepping into the shot vs. stepping back from the shot?
- Thread starter jlrowe
- Start date
Bob I asked the OP for a video of the player.
W/O that it's just guesswork.
W/O that it's just guesswork.
Balance forward of center in the 3 point stance. Prepare for launch.
Balance back when frightened and ready to bolt. In baseball it was stepping in the bucket. Never a good thing.
Balance back when frightened and ready to bolt. In baseball it was stepping in the bucket. Never a good thing.
I’ve noticed that more and more younger pros are using the two step method taught by Mark Wilson. Line up square behind the shot line then step to the left, or slightly on, the shot line with your right foot and then step in with your left. I step in with left but don’t do the two step, just line up differently initially. Consistency is the main thing.
Either more coaches are adopting Mark’s methods or Mark is really busy
Either more coaches are adopting Mark’s methods or Mark is really busy
A bit on topic then on to a bit of silliness! When I played nightly and usually for hours, I simply used minimum effort. I logged three weeks twice in my years of heavy play. Every week I logged over sixty hours, sometimes over eighty, actually on a table or gambling, not just at the hall.
A typical gambling session ran six to twelve hours and a few went thirty-six hours, one forty-eight. All this on the natch. With this much time on the pool table I often played shape for minimum effort and slid sideways on the pool table or was directly against it so I had to take a half step back to shoot. Not what I would do for a table length cut the peach fuzz off of the ball cut shot, just typical shots. It was about saving effort and conserving energy more than perfect stance. Playing full time hours and then some I recognized what was good enough stance. I stepped into the shot, I stepped back from the table, whatever. For a really tough shot I normally stepped into the shot from back away from the table and positioned my feet carefully.
From here down is a skate boarding story. Off topic and those not wanting a little light entertainment should stop here, no pool involved. My mom and I were visiting my brother stationed in Hawaii during his first hitch. Tough duty! He was young and handsome, the girls beautiful and willing. I don't know how he survived two years on the main island!
We were enjoying catching up after not seeing each other for about a year, seeing the sights, and naturally drinking beer. Come Sunday he had something to show me. I had already learned they sold real estate by the frontage inch and made use of every bit of space. Cattle grazed on mountainsides I didn't expect to see anything but maybe a goat on. They built skyscrapers on what looked to have been sidewalk right of ways! Today he took me to a parking lot of a shopping center, closed on Sunday. It might not have qualified as a paved cliff but it was close! At the bottom of the parking lot was a wide entrance and a busy four lane road, no dividers.
My brother pulls out his skate board. Not these modern things. This was early seventies. The skate board was a narrow board not long enough to fit two adult feet on fully and the wheels and carriage were steel, probably seconds that didn't pass for roller skates. Narrow steel wheels on dry bearings.
The idea was we would start at the top of the cliff, um, parking lot, and skate down to the road. He had never actually succeeded! We were working on half a sixpack of twelve ounce beer apiece, one left, so a few scrapes and bruises from jeans and t-shirts being our only protection didn't phase us. Normally we didn't get past thirty or forty feet, the parking lot was far from smooth and those little steel wheels didn't track well. The last of the beer made it seem unimportant that we were destroying what little clothes we had on.
Then it happened, success! I managed to stay up long enough the skateboard was damned near flying, the parking lot bumps and craters weren't affecting the ride I was just hitting the high spots anyway. The noise was tremendous and the wind whipping past my ears glorious! Ha, look at this! I had went down over a hundred yards and only had about half that distance before I got to the road. One more minor detail about these antique skateboards, they weren't big on turning, especially not at forty or fifty miles an hour! Seemed like twice that speed. Two more chances to turn before going into a wall of cars on the highway. One more chance. Definitely a hero move, I forced the skateboard sideways.
I don't know what possibilities of glory there might have been but the skateboard just disappeared! I started flipping, still standing straight. My head hit, my feet hit, my head hit, my feet hit... This happened enough I would have loved to have had it on film. It had to be fit for a world's stupidest video! I was stiff as a board with only head and feet hitting. Finally I slowed down enough that my body started bending and dinging other parts. I stopped about twenty feet from the highway.
I was in the bulletproof mode beer gives you and aside from a foot or two of skin, a few dents rapidly turning to knots on my head, and bruises I was unharmed! We decided on more beer and less(no) skateboarding for the rest of the day. I wasn't going to worry mom or waste my last week ever in Hawaii so I kinda glossed over a little discomfort for a few days. We still had lots more trouble to get into. Fortunately mom was there to provide a little restraint, Hawaii might not have survived two South Louisiana country boys otherwise!
Hu
A typical gambling session ran six to twelve hours and a few went thirty-six hours, one forty-eight. All this on the natch. With this much time on the pool table I often played shape for minimum effort and slid sideways on the pool table or was directly against it so I had to take a half step back to shoot. Not what I would do for a table length cut the peach fuzz off of the ball cut shot, just typical shots. It was about saving effort and conserving energy more than perfect stance. Playing full time hours and then some I recognized what was good enough stance. I stepped into the shot, I stepped back from the table, whatever. For a really tough shot I normally stepped into the shot from back away from the table and positioned my feet carefully.
From here down is a skate boarding story. Off topic and those not wanting a little light entertainment should stop here, no pool involved. My mom and I were visiting my brother stationed in Hawaii during his first hitch. Tough duty! He was young and handsome, the girls beautiful and willing. I don't know how he survived two years on the main island!
We were enjoying catching up after not seeing each other for about a year, seeing the sights, and naturally drinking beer. Come Sunday he had something to show me. I had already learned they sold real estate by the frontage inch and made use of every bit of space. Cattle grazed on mountainsides I didn't expect to see anything but maybe a goat on. They built skyscrapers on what looked to have been sidewalk right of ways! Today he took me to a parking lot of a shopping center, closed on Sunday. It might not have qualified as a paved cliff but it was close! At the bottom of the parking lot was a wide entrance and a busy four lane road, no dividers.
My brother pulls out his skate board. Not these modern things. This was early seventies. The skate board was a narrow board not long enough to fit two adult feet on fully and the wheels and carriage were steel, probably seconds that didn't pass for roller skates. Narrow steel wheels on dry bearings.
The idea was we would start at the top of the cliff, um, parking lot, and skate down to the road. He had never actually succeeded! We were working on half a sixpack of twelve ounce beer apiece, one left, so a few scrapes and bruises from jeans and t-shirts being our only protection didn't phase us. Normally we didn't get past thirty or forty feet, the parking lot was far from smooth and those little steel wheels didn't track well. The last of the beer made it seem unimportant that we were destroying what little clothes we had on.
Then it happened, success! I managed to stay up long enough the skateboard was damned near flying, the parking lot bumps and craters weren't affecting the ride I was just hitting the high spots anyway. The noise was tremendous and the wind whipping past my ears glorious! Ha, look at this! I had went down over a hundred yards and only had about half that distance before I got to the road. One more minor detail about these antique skateboards, they weren't big on turning, especially not at forty or fifty miles an hour! Seemed like twice that speed. Two more chances to turn before going into a wall of cars on the highway. One more chance. Definitely a hero move, I forced the skateboard sideways.
I don't know what possibilities of glory there might have been but the skateboard just disappeared! I started flipping, still standing straight. My head hit, my feet hit, my head hit, my feet hit... This happened enough I would have loved to have had it on film. It had to be fit for a world's stupidest video! I was stiff as a board with only head and feet hitting. Finally I slowed down enough that my body started bending and dinging other parts. I stopped about twenty feet from the highway.
I was in the bulletproof mode beer gives you and aside from a foot or two of skin, a few dents rapidly turning to knots on my head, and bruises I was unharmed! We decided on more beer and less(no) skateboarding for the rest of the day. I wasn't going to worry mom or waste my last week ever in Hawaii so I kinda glossed over a little discomfort for a few days. We still had lots more trouble to get into. Fortunately mom was there to provide a little restraint, Hawaii might not have survived two South Louisiana country boys otherwise!
Hu
My theory is that players that have mastered their vision center and alignment can step into the shot however they wish (and quickly) because they “have eyes”.
But players that haven’t mastered that will really need to make sure their aim is correct while standing because they can’t trust what they see when down which means stepping forward into the shot is absolutely critical for them to maintain alignment.
And all things being equal there’s no harm in favoring stepping forward as the preferred fundamental.
But players that haven’t mastered that will really need to make sure their aim is correct while standing because they can’t trust what they see when down which means stepping forward into the shot is absolutely critical for them to maintain alignment.
And all things being equal there’s no harm in favoring stepping forward as the preferred fundamental.
Bob I really never thought about that. But thinking about it my left foot when i step into the shot is definitely more forward. Ok i measured a few things. On a long straight in shot, 2nd diamond to 2nd diamond diagonal. Regular stance i am centered of the ball about my belt buckle. I always keep my elbow at a 90 degree to my rear deltoid so when i go down its perfect also. That puts my middle finger at the exact end of the wrap which is 5" from the end of my 58" cue. I am approximately 64" back from the cue ball. My When i step forward with my left foot it is about 30 degrees to the left and from the heal to the inside of my ankle of right foot which doesnt move just pivots some. it is 24". Now the step back. I am facing the ball centered but only 48" back from the cue ball. adjust grip point on the cue with back hand to get perfect 90 when im down. It moves the middle finger 3.5" forward than before on the wrap so im 8.5" from the end. I step back with my right leg it is still same about 30 degrees. The distance is only 16" vs 24" I checked to see if putting my head or eyes closer to the cueball. There is no difference measured both ways my chin contacts the cue at 3.5" below the joint. . The thing i get from this i get is there is less strain on the leg muscles stepping back than taking a longer step forward. I also was wondering about the 3.5" difference in back hand position. So i stepped or tried stepping back 24" which was surprising hard placed a lot of strain on the body and i needed to adjust my back hand to about the same 5" inches from the end vs 8.5 to feel right. Maybe that long step forward was natural when i was younger and it didn't strain me as much so i didn't pay any attention to it. Now hitting almost 60 i might need to adjust. Getting old sucks.
i dont know about anyone else but i find it real easy to know when i am down whether i am lined up right or not, then i adjust from there if not.
i just walk up and plop down naturally. if i went and had to think about it i probably would play like those that have to plan every move they make so choke on shots, and second guess themselves into missing.
i just walk up and plop down naturally. if i went and had to think about it i probably would play like those that have to plan every move they make so choke on shots, and second guess themselves into missing.
It took me a month of picking up balls b4 the juggling stroke finally took. Retraining how you see and think about what the hand and balls are doing is necessary. Get rid of any preconceptions you may have. There is plenty of time to react and catch the falling ball and shoot it across to the other hand while releasing another ball in that other hand going up. Repetitive motion.
Having a comfortable stance is a must. Can't play for hours even days on end worrying about where your feet are.
Solid center of gravity stance that allows for pendulum movement. Get comfy at the table so you don't have to think about it.
You might ask a martial artist about this or read some material about stance and it's purpose.
O-H! Jlrowe,
I can really respect your dedication to getting it right. Considering your love of boxing, that ravishing right hand won’t have much behind it without a solid foundation, it makes sense that it weighs heavy on your mind. It’s quite a mouthful. Do you think of all those kinds of measurements when you throw a jab?
I’m just a hack, so grain of salt. You know that feeling before your shot where it just looks right and you know it’s going to go?
When you’re down on the shot and you know it’s good- Stand up- That’s where you need to be when you drop down.
Internalizing that will do more good than memorizing the angle of your deltoids.
I guess maybe I’m oversimplifying. I really just want to impress the point that you build upon a foundation of success.
I have a personal rule to always step into the shot and never stay put and just slide my back foot into place.
For example, if I play a route where the cue ball comes back to where I’m at and I could just slide my back foot over and then get down, in an ideal world, I force my lazy ass to get back up. It’s not a successful foundation for me. I guess it’s cutting out a part of the process that I internalized leading to a successful foundation.
If I think about it in terms of a process than I would say, for me, that stepping into the shot line is something I always try to do.
My process is to stand with my belly button centered and squared up to the pocket line. I imagine my hips are like a speed square jutting out from either side and hold my stick across my hips to make sure I’m squared up to the part of the pocket I want to hit.
Then I get behind the shot line the same way before stepping up and inside the shot line with the outside of my ankle, turn my foot so the ball of my foot is on the line, step up with my front and drop.
If something doesn’t look right, I hopefully, stand up and repeat from the pocket line instead of making adjustments with a close enough mindset.
Dang man, now I’m the one with the mouthful of words. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Shoot straight!
I have a personal rule to always step into the shot and never stay put and just slide my back foot into place.
For example, if I play a route where the cue ball comes back to where I’m at and I could just slide my back foot over and then get down, in an ideal world, I force my lazy ass to get back up. It’s not a successful foundation for me. I guess it’s cutting out a part of the process that I internalized leading to a successful foundation.
If I think about it in terms of a process than I would say, for me, that stepping into the shot line is something I always try to do.
My process is to stand with my belly button centered and squared up to the pocket line. I imagine my hips are like a speed square jutting out from either side and hold my stick across my hips to make sure I’m squared up to the part of the pocket I want to hit.
Then I get behind the shot line the same way before stepping up and inside the shot line with the outside of my ankle, turn my foot so the ball of my foot is on the line, step up with my front and drop.
If something doesn’t look right, I hopefully, stand up and repeat from the pocket line instead of making adjustments with a close enough mindset.
Dang man, now I’m the one with the mouthful of words. Truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
Shoot straight!
IIRC, Bert taught players to step back in one of his videos.
I was a student of his and have always stepped forward.
I suppose it's preference to a large degree.
I was a student of his and have always stepped forward.
I suppose it's preference to a large degree.