Advise to Dr. DAVE From Ron V.

Scott Lee said:
Dave...There aren't any...and they wouldn't help, even if there were. Systems like CTE, Ron V's hip pivot, and SAM use processes that must be demonstrated at the table to the student, for a clear understanding...and even then some folks can't "get it". [...]
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This notion comes up frequently. And I'm not trying to be difficult here. But I cannot even imagine a piece of information or a type of knowledge that must be learned one-on-one at the table. Can someone try to explain even a very small and trivial example of what is meant by this?

These kinds of systems demand a certain amount of 'faith' and belief that they will work.
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I can understand this. Especially if the "aim" the system gets you to looks wrong to you. As it would if you normally miss the shot. For instance if you normally overcut a particular shot, and a system gets you to the right aim, it will look to you like you're hitting too thick. You have to put some trust in the new aim to use it effectively.

Overanalytical types (i.e.: A 27 degree angle cannot be the same aim as a 33 degree angle...hint: yes they can!) usually cannot 'let go' enough to benefit from using them.
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There are two issues here. One is objective reality, and the other is perception. As for the objective reality, a 27 degree angle IS DIFFERENT from a 33 degree angle. They're different whether a person wants them to be different. They're different whether a person believes them to be different. They're different whether a person has even heard of the concept of "angle." These angles are different whether you trust, whether you believe, whether you've learned at the table, whether you're analytical, or whether you're a mystic. That is objective reality.

Whether a person stops himself from trying something new because he doesn't "let go" is something different.


The main thing, is that many types of aiming methods are best demonstrated at the table, by a qualified teacher, than trying to learn them out of a book or video (when they are available).
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I am struggling with this idea. Again if anyone could help with detailed explanation of a small example of the kind of thing people mean by this, I would appreciate it.
 
dr_dave said:
I hope Spidey and/or others will also try and/or record video for the shots I recommended. I think we need to see how the alignment and pivot change as shots are varied small amounts. Here is what I asked for:

What I would love to see is a video (preferably with an over-head view) that describes in detail and shows how the line of aim and pivot change for a set of 5 or more equally spaced shots between the "A" and "B" positions in both Diagrams 1 and 2 here.
​
Thanks,
Dave
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Geeze Dave, you need a DAM production company for all of those variables. ;)
JoeyA
 
The AZ Room at the DCC would be a nice place to see examples of aiming systems and it may be a nice place to video some shots for posting on this forum. But with all the experts in one place I'm somewhat afraid that the AZ Room would turn in to a War Room.
 
mikepage said:
This notion comes up frequently. And I'm not trying to be difficult here. But I cannot even imagine a piece of information or a type of knowledge that must be learned one-on-one at the table. Can someone try to explain even a very small and trivial example of what is meant by this?


I can understand this. Especially if the "aim" the system gets you to looks wrong to you. As it would if you normally miss the shot. For instance if you normally overcut a particular shot, and a system gets you to the right aim, it will look to you like you're hitting too thick. You have to put some trust in the new aim to use it effectively.



There are two issues here. One is objective reality, and the other is perception. As for the objective reality, a 27 degree angle IS DIFFERENT from a 33 degree angle. They're different whether a person wants them to be different. They're different whether a person believes them to be different. They're different whether a person has even heard of the concept of "angle." These angles are different whether you trust, whether you believe, whether you've learned at the table, whether you're analytical, or whether you're a mystic. That is objective reality.

Whether a person stops himself from trying something new because he doesn't "let go" is something different.




I am struggling with this idea. Again if anyone could help with detailed explanation of a small example of the kind of thing people mean by this, I would appreciate it.
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Mike,

Pivoting must be shown. There's a big misconception on here that all pivots are created equal. I can bridge from the same position and pivot to different CB centers. I'm brainstorming on how to explain this in a post, but wont until I know for sure. Pivoting must be shown.

Dave
 
online resources

Dave Nelson said:
... I do not understand CTE, pivot point and lots of other things. What is the best book or video I could buy to help me understand these things?
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I don't know of any books that cover this stuff in detail. You can find limited info on CTE here:


on pivot point here:


and on "lots of other things" here:


Enjoy,
Dave

PS: If you just want basic definitions of these and other things, you can find them here:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/glossary.pdf
 
JoeyA said:
Geeze Dave, you need a DAM production company for all of those variables. ;)
JoeyA
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If someone spots me a production co, I'l gladly do it. I have a feeling my laptop/webcam view wont impress Dr. D.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Not without moving your bridge (assuming I know what you mean by "different CB centers").

pj
chgo
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I'm not engaging you again, PJ. I've been focusing on turning a new leaf with u. You, Dr. D, Mike are free to spend some time with me at Valley Forge SBE. The base of my bridge doesn't move...skin doesnt count. I'll show you for free...no bets buddy;)
 
JoeyA said:
Geeze Dave, you need a DAM production company for all of those variables. ;)
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I know you are just kidding, but I hope somebody will take this seriously and take the time to look at it and try it (and hopefully record it with video).

There ain't no DAM variables. Set up shot "A" in the diagram, then shift it a little toward shot "B" and repeat until you reach shot "B," showing and explaining what changes on each shot. I think that is DAM simple.

I (and I hope others) would like to see this for both Diagrams 1 and 2 here:


making the ball in the same corner pocket on each shot.

Again, I don't think this is too much to ask, and I think it will help us explain once and for all how the pivot-based systems really work.

I would try to film this myself, but I am not a faithful follower of the pivot-based aiming systems, so I probably wouldn't do them justice or explain them very well or fairly.

Regards,
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
The base of my bridge doesn't move...skin doesnt count.
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The "base" of your bridge may not have moved in the video; but the top of the bridge, where the cue rests, certainly did move. Otherwise, you would have missed the shot. By moving the top of the bridge (not just your "skin"), you have changed the effective pivot point, as pointed out by Colin's animation of the frames from the video.

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
I know you are just kidding, but I hope somebody will take this seriously and take the time to look at it and try it (and hopefully record it with video).

There ain't no DAM variables. Set up shot "A" in the diagram, then shift it a little toward shot "B" and repeat until you reach shot "B," showing and explaining what changes on each shot. I think that is DAM simple.

I (and I hope others) would like to see this for both Diagrams 1 and 2 here:


making the ball in the same corner pocket on each shot.

Again, I don't think this is too much to ask, and I think it will help us explain once and for all how the pivot-based systems really work.

I would try to film this myself, but I am not a faithful follower of the pivot-based aiming systems, so I probably wouldn't do them justice or explain them very well or fairly.

Regards,
Dave
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Ill try this weekend
 
dr_dave said:
The "base" of your bridge may not have moved in the video; but the top of the bridge, where the cue rests, certainly did move. Otherwise, you would have missed the shot. By moving the top of the bridge (not just your "skin"), you have changed the effective pivot point, as pointed out by Colin's animation of the frames from the video.

Regards,
Dave
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The foundatiop of the bridge never moves..thats my point. Theres a detailed technique to this as I mentioned above. Pivoting cannot be generalized into just swinging your cue. Thats my only point.
 
The base of my bridge doesn't move...skin doesnt count.
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Whatever causes or allows the pivot point within your bridge hand to move "counts" - it's how you get different centerball alignments. If that pivot point doesn't move you cannot get different centerball alignments - it's physically impossible. Everything that happens behind your bridge hand, including your so-called "hip pivot", has no effect on this physical reality.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
So let's hear it.

pj
chgo
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Read above. It's not that simple. If it were, I'd start a thread.

I'm really trying to be nice, pj. Lets try to not antogonize each other.
 
Mike...too bad you didn't get certified as spf...then you'd understand SAM. While a 27 degree and 33 degree are different, they are both SAM 3 shots...which is CTE aiming. If you knew about SAM, you'd know that already. Clearly you don't, and would have to be SHOWN, since you apparently can't grasp the concept on the computer (not unlike many posters here). In your defense, as has been stated many times before, SAM is most easily learned hands on, from a qualified instructor.


Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


mikepage said:
This notion comes up frequently. And I'm not trying to be difficult here. But I cannot even imagine a piece of information or a type of knowledge that must be learned one-on-one at the table. Can someone try to explain even a very small and trivial example of what is meant by this?


I can understand this. Especially if the "aim" the system gets you to looks wrong to you. As it would if you normally miss the shot. For instance if you normally overcut a particular shot, and a system gets you to the right aim, it will look to you like you're hitting too thick. You have to put some trust in the new aim to use it effectively.



There are two issues here. One is objective reality, and the other is perception. As for the objective reality, a 27 degree angle IS DIFFERENT from a 33 degree angle. They're different whether a person wants them to be different. They're different whether a person believes them to be different. They're different whether a person has even heard of the concept of "angle." These angles are different whether you trust, whether you believe, whether you've learned at the table, whether you're analytical, or whether you're a mystic. That is objective reality.

Whether a person stops himself from trying something new because he doesn't "let go" is something different.




I am struggling with this idea. Again if anyone could help with detailed explanation of a small example of the kind of thing people mean by this, I would appreciate it.
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Scott Lee said:
Mike...too bad you didn't get certified as spf...then you'd understand SAM. While a 27 degree and 33 degree are different, they are both SAM 3 shots...which is CTE aiming. If you knew about SAM, you'd know that already. Clearly you don't, and would have to be SHOWN, since you apparently can't grasp the concept on the computer (not unlike many posters here). In your defense, as has been stated many times before, SAM is most easily learned hands on, from a qualified instructor.
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I'm sure most people would agree that most things would be learned better when taught by a qualified instructor who is a good teacher and coach. It also helps to have a good student.

If people are curious what SAM is, I have a quote of a wordy, but fairly clear, description here:


It is fairly simple to describe in words, but like most things in pool, it takes practice to develop proficiency.

Regards,
Dave
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
dr_dave said:
Set up shot "A" in the diagram, then shift it a little toward shot "B" and repeat until you reach shot "B," showing and explaining what changes on each shot. I (and I hope others) would like to see this for both Diagrams 1 and 2 here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2008/nov08.pdf

making the ball in the same corner pocket on each shot.
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Ill try this weekend
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Thank you very much! Feel free to call or e-mail if you have any questions about the diagrams or what I am requesting.

I look forward to seeing your results.

Thank you again,
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
The foundatiop of the bridge never moves..thats my point. Theres a detailed technique to this as I mentioned above. Pivoting cannot be generalized into just swinging your cue. Thats my only point.
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Maybe you can try to explain and illustrate this more when you shoot the video. It might be nice to have a close-up of your bridge hand (at some point in the video) showing what happens during different "pivots" for different shots in the diagrams.

Also, RonV has claimed in the past the bridge hand, and the pivot point on the bridge, should not move during the body "pivot." So is what you will be demonstrating different from what RonV teaches?

Thanks,
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I'm really trying to be nice, pj. Lets try to not antogonize each other.
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Spidey,

I am very impressed by your composure and efforts to maintain civility. Good job! I hope PJ will remain equally well behaved. :smile:

I hope we can keep this thread more on topic and avoid all of the personal-attack stuff that has occurred in previous threads.

Regards,
Dave
 
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