African American pool pros

[Frankenstroke]

I do believe Cliff Joyner is American Indian. (As is Leil Gay.)

 

[Str8PoolPlayer]

I was trying to encompass all those who do not fall into the "Caucasian" category ... No offense to Mr. Joyner or anyone else ...

 

[Fatboy]

I seen Mark Tad play alot in Vegas in the earily 90's, we lost him to poker. I believe he was half black/white. It dosent really matter he was a great player, i awalys liked him.

I wish more people would get into pool white, black, or purple, the sport needs players period. Race is no issue. Infact I played at a well known pool room where there was about 15-20 regulars, we played after hours 3-4 nights a week, had a 21 game, poker, ring games, pea pool, toss a quarter to the spot. etc. We would laugh and have fun with racial jokes of all colors, we were all good friends and it didnt matter who was what fat skinny, etc it was a good vibe we had for years, i miss those guys/days,


All the Black players I have known over the years were more gamblers and not tournment players, all were class acts winners or losers on any given night as we should all be. I hate racism and racists. were all people and thats that.

 

[wayne]

I can state with unequivocal certainty that no person or group has the right to determine how other people define or call themselves or how they wish to be called, and you are certainly no exception. Although you obviously have no say in the matter, I am writing, in the interests of promoting a sense of community and mutual understanding, to clarify a few points regarding your post.

First, I believe that you be laboring under a misconception as to the provenance of the term "African-American". Whatever your feelings about Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton (and I will not discuss that here), you may be certain that the term neither originates with or owes its current use to either of these two gentlemen. You may go back over two centuries to gentlemen like Prince Hall, to the 19th century Martin Delany, and to numerous luminary figures and movements throughout the African-American sojourn on this continent. Identification with the ancestral homeland of African has always been a powerful current in social, cultural and intellectual development of "Black" America, and the largest organization of "Black" people ever built in the modern era was Marcus Garvey's UNIA, whose entire philosophy was rooted in identification with the African continent. As such, leave Al and Jesse out of this--this issue is bigger than any of them, or any of us.

To address your issue on its merits, I submit that your argument has no basis whatsoever, inasmuch as the term "African-American" explicitly affirms Americanness. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that you can recall countless times that you have referred to people as Irish or Irish-American, or Asian or Asian-American; when in fact they may never have seen the land of their ancestral origin. The term African-American is no different. It simply denotes a particular population group within the American social and political fabric by its historical, cultural and ethnic background rather than on color or race.

In terms of the discourse among public intellectuals who often exert profound influence on public debate and usage, the term African-American, in fact, partly owes its current popularity to a paradigm which challenges the validity of a biological concept of "race". What does race mean as a biological concept in America, for example, when the vast majority of "blacks" have "white" ancestors and the majority of "whites" have "black" ancestors within the last 10 generations? (Yes, that is a fact! Look it up!) As such, terms such as African-American, European-American or Asian-American attepmt to denote various groups in our society on the basis of their group historical and cultural experience rather than on genotype, and it reaffirms that each group is, in fact, American. What is divisive about that? Does the sucess of democracy and equality depend on everyone being the same? Who would determine what that sameness should look like? Would you give up, for meager example, popcorn, the blues, pizza, barbecue, bagels and lox, and pilsner beer (all "American" favorites that are the product of particular ethnic groups) in pursuit of this sameness?

Rather than a melting pot, the better analogy for a multicultural America may be a pungent multi-ingredient stew or paella, in which each of the ingredients lend their own unique flavors to create a whole dish without being boiled down into a gelatinous indistiguishable mass. In the final analysis, ethnic divisiveness will not be resolved by eliminating and submlimating our differences, but by learning to accept and appreciate them. Good day to you sir!

Rudy Krigger, Jr.
A proud African-American

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[TX Poolnut]

Tennessee, 1939

Last time I showed this picture, someone asked if I noticed the irony of a white bread commercial on the side of a colored only billiard hall. Hmm...

 

[TX Poolnut]

Gem Theatre and Red's Pool Hall (colored only)
9th Street Business District, Little Rock, Pulaski County, Arkansas; photo circa 1940.

 

[TX Poolnut]

African-American owned pool hall and cafe in McClean County, Illinois:

Photograph of Ike Sanders (left) and another man in front of Cafe and Pool Hall at 103 S. Main St., Bloomington, Illinois. Circa 1902

 

[TX Poolnut]

History of the Civilian Conservation Corps:

The United States was gripped in the throws of no work and very little food for many families. President F. D. Roosevelt as one of his actions created the Civilian Conservation Corps (later named) to aid with this problem. Young men from every walk of life were allowed to enlist to work in national forests and provide a myriad of services in tough times. Of the total number of enlistees 10% were to be Black shadowing the population numbers of the day. One of the outstanding companies was 517/C who were stationed in three different locations in the State of Indiana as the years went by. As an all Black Company theirs was an example of effort and education that was hard to match by any other Black Company. While other companies had racial troubles the 517 forged ahead from forestry work to land reclamation with its last base being in Jay County Indiana in an all White town by the name of Portland. Work, Education, Recreation were all part of this company’s accomplishments with the majority of its members going on to serve their country and become valued members of society in peace time. We will show their home, their education efforts and the “FUN” that was had by its members. The members themselves who after many years had gone by, continue to return to Jay County at its Fair Grounds for their reunions. The Fair grounds was the original site of the CCC Camp in Portland In.

This picture is a shot inside the recreation room during down time. Pool served to ease the stress of the war overseas.

 

[Stones]

The only COLOR in pool that matters is the GREEN!

'Nuff said!

Stones

 

[Cuedog]

Below is the photo I spoke of earlier. The scan did not pick it all up. This is only about 2/3 of the photo. There are more players to the left of what you see.

If anyone recognizes any of these gentlemen, I would be very grateful to know names. Thanks.

Gene

 

[MrLucky]

Thanks for posting the pictures I have added them to my memorabilia!

This post started out with some IMO! misinformed statements ! To becoming quite a good post ! Thank You to the contributors I am personally for obvious reasons very interested in this subject Peace and thanks
MrLucky / Phil

 

[MrLucky]

Cliff ....

I do believe Cliff Joyner is American Indian. (As is Leil Gay.)

Is Black although due to the effects and results of slavery many freed and escaped african slaves were taken in by indian tribes most notably the Seminoles in Florida who defied the government troops and not only harbored many escaped slaves but treated them as their own people ! So many who are Indians are also very much afro americans LOL! perhaps the only true "Afro Americans" since in the strict sense of the term The Native Americans / "Indians" (a term imposed on these indigenous peoples came from the ignorance of the first explorers that were confused as to where they truly were!) are the only true Americans!

An also interesting fact is that some indian tribes also enslaved other Indians and africans ! here is a link to a video detailing the issue of african slaves that were taken in by the Cherokee tribes and now thier descendents are being kept from the largess and windfall that has been brought to the Cherokees from gambling! ...
http://www.kotv.com/e-clips/?id=5328

 

[VIProfessor]

Does anyone know if Cliff is related to Tom Joyner (the HARDEST working man in radio)? They do seem to share a definite resemblance.

 

[Craig Fales]

My personal thoughts on why there are not more Pros of color are very complex this has to do with society and economics in general ! At the risk of offending some here who view the world through rose colored glasses or what they tend to grasp from media reports even today in 2007 IMO the playing field is still not level ! Not pure racism like in Ciseros days but now the issues are cultural and economic! There are not the huge payouts in professional pool such as Golf for example where a Tiger Woods can in a relatively short time become a mega millionaire and rise above any impediments to his being successful in what was once a "solely wealthy white mans province" since to be able to play golf at all you most definitely need to be able to afford both the time and the expense! Most (not all in todays world but most) Black Pool players can not afford the travel and the fees, they do not have the bankroll or in some cases the backers that will allow them to live the life on the road of a Pool Pro ! They do not have the connections either! You can go to any major city and find the Cliff Joyners whom with some backing and or enough of their own money that they would not have the need to work to supplement their winnings while doing what they love and are good at, they would be ranked right up there at the top! I know of several players right here in Atlanta that can and will give many Pro's headaches on any given day but these guys are truck drivers, construction workers etcetera and play where and when they can.

I'm calling BS on this...you're playing the same whiny poor little victim card that Al Sharpton and the other whiny poor little mes use as an excuse for the brothers not getting out of the ghetto...the opportunity is there for all NOW and excuses for incompitence are not accepted anymore...

__________________

and perhaps its important to add for those that don't know ... Pool just doesn't payout all that much right now!

 

[MrLucky]

Well Craig...

I'm calling BS on this...you're playing the same whiny poor little victim card that Al Sharpton and the other whiny poor little mes use as an excuse for the brothers not getting out of the ghetto...the opportunity is there for all NOW and excuses for incompitence are not accepted anymore...

although this is off topic ..... You are displaying the ignorant / or just arrogant attitude of many racist! If you are trying to imply that the slate in america is equal now or has ever been equal for all! But just to clarify my statement for the uninformed or like yourself "truth challenged" My point was / is that Professional Pool does not pay enough for the average person to just decide to quit their employment and go out on the road and persue their dream of being a pro pool player ! It would be disingenuous for you too suggest otherwise! .Also as I posted earlier as an example of how unequal it has been is the fact that Cisero was not despite his talent invited to most of the tournaments and championships and when he finally was COULD NOT EVEN GO INTO THE FRONT DOOR LIKE THE OTHER PARTICIPANTS! so if somehow you can in your mind say this was equal treatment and opportunity you my friend need some help .. now back to pool!

 

[Craig Fales]

My personal thoughts on why there are not more Pros of color are very complex this has to do with society and economics in general ! At the risk of offending some here who view the world through rose colored glasses or what they tend to grasp from media reports even today in 2007 IMO the playing field is still not level !

Black Pool players can not afford the travel and the fees, they do not have the bankroll or in some cases the backers that will allow them to live the life on the road of a Pool Pro ! They do not have the connections either!

^^^ this is clearly saying that blacks aren't given equal chance at playing pool professionally because noone will sponsor them or back them...

 

[MrLucky]

You need to read and quote the entire statement!

My personal thoughts on why there are not more Pros of color are very complex this has to do with society and economics in general ! At the risk of offending some here who view the world through rose colored glasses or what they tend to grasp from media reports even today in 2007 IMO the playing field is still not level !

^^^ this is clearly saying that blacks aren't given equal chance at playing pool professionally because noone will sponsor them or back them...

What I clearly said was that many of the black / afro american players do not have the ability to leave their jobs and do this nor do they have the connections to the backers and and sponsorship that would allow them to support themselves and their families while persuing their dreams! I might ad that even today there is a much lower percentage of Blacks that have the inherited or passed down Family wealth that would also allow this freedom !

Never in any of my statements did I say or imply that the "backers refused to do this!" reading and comprehension are essential elements to understanding!

 

[VIProfessor]

I'm calling BS on this...you're playing the same whiny poor little victim card that Al Sharpton and the other whiny poor little mes use as an excuse for the brothers not getting out of the ghetto...the opportunity is there for all NOW and excuses for incompitence are not accepted anymore...

The easiest tactic used by the oppressor and those who THINK they have benefited from the oppressor is selective memory and perception. For your edification, let's take a quick look at how the legacy of excluding African-Americans from major tournaments still lingers today.

I believe that you will agree that there are distinct pool cultures that exist in various regions and cultural spaces. For example, the Northeast is known as a straight pool region, the South and Midwest for bank pool, and the Phillipines for 15-ball rotation. This is just a part of what I refer to as a "pool culture". The point of this is that while European-Americans players can place themselves in the tradition of great tournament players like Mosconi, Greenleaf, Caras and so on, African-American players have not been part of that tradition for obvious reasons. Instead, the African-American pool culture has been more centered in money games and matching up. Is it any coincidence that most of the great Black players mentioned in this thread were one-pocket players? To put it another way, when pool met the television era, where were the players that a young African-American would identify with and be inspired by? For that matter where are they now, and how can we be surprised at the lack of participation in the sport by African American youth?

Secondly, it should be noted that of the current crop of black players named, just about all of them are over 45. Have you considered why that may be? In thinking about the question, it occurs to me that the second pool boom (post-TCOM) was largely a suburban phenomenon for a number of reasons, and that by mere fact of location, it completely bypassed the inner-city (the way that industrial production left the cities from the 1950's onward).

Finally where do you get your charges of "incompitence" (LOL) from? We have been speaking about the fact that there aren't many African Americans who play tournament pool professionally. No one here has yet had the temerity or colossal gall to suggest that it doesn't have a ton of brothers that can PLAY! If that is what you are suggesting, PLEASE get some money up and we'll help you to rid yourself of that notion.

 

[VIProfessor]

To follow up quickly on my previous post and on the importance of pool culture and tradition in the development of young players, consider the fact that despite the fact that pool is now part of the information age, it is still extremely rare to see a champion or top player emerge without exposure to and association with top players. Like ESPN's "What's the link", you can look at the history of most top players and find mentorship and association links that lead straight back to a branch of the great American pool tradition. In my own little example, much of my earlier development came about under the tutelage of Bob Lisciotti, first cousin and early competitor to his World Champion cousin Larry. After returning to the Virgin Islands, a definite pool backwater, my game remained pretty much the same until being exposed to the larger pool world again and spending time with the likes of Spanish Pete (who was practice partner to Ginky, who learned much from George Mikulas (sp?), etc.). If we talk about REAL players, the sport is full of examples. Rodney Morris coming up under Hawaiian Brian, Johnny Archer traveling with Jay Swanson, Nick Varner coming up under Hubert Cokes, and so on. The point is that for most of the great black players, their immediate role models were not tournament players, but money players, and thus it is natural to expect that many would follow in that path.

 

[Craig Fales]

I'm calling BS on this...you're playing the same whiny poor little victim card that Al Sharpton and the other whiny poor little mes use as an excuse for the brothers not getting out of the ghetto...the opportunity is there for all NOW and excuses for incompitence are not accepted anymore...

My theory is the perception that blacks see themselves as still oppressed in this day and age...this is what I'm talking about...the opportunity to make it playing pool is the same for blacks as it is for anybody else...what about all those Philipinos that battled their way to success at pool...did they come from wealth? I'd place a big bet that there are a ton of nonblacks that would love to afford to go on the road and play in tournaments...

Origanally bespoken be VIProfessor:
Finally where do you get your charges of "incompitence" (LOL) from? We have been speaking about the fact that there aren't many African Americans who play tournament pool professionally. No one here has yet had the temerity or colossal gall to suggest that it doesn't have a ton of brothers that can PLAY! If that is what you are suggesting, PLEASE get some money up and we'll help you to rid yourself of that notion.

If you're suggesting I said there are no good black players I'm implying quite the contrary...there ARE alot of strong black players that can play at top 5 pro player levels...

To follow up quickly on my previous post and on the importance of pool culture and tradition in the development of young players, consider the fact that despite the fact that pool is now part of the information age, it is still extremely rare to see a champion or top player emerge without exposure to and association with top players. Like ESPN's "What's the link", you can look at the history of most top players and find mentorship and association links that lead straight back to a branch of the great American pool tradition. In my own little example, much of my earlier development came about under the tutelage of Bob Lisciotti, first cousin and early competitor to his World Champion cousin Larry. After returning to the Virgin Islands, a definite pool backwater, my game remained pretty much the same until being exposed to the larger pool world again and spending time with the likes of Spanish Pete (who was practice partner to Ginky, who learned much from George Mikulas (sp?), etc.). If we talk about REAL players, the sport is full of examples. Rodney Morris coming up under Hawaiian Brian, Johnny Archer traveling with Jay Swanson, Nick Varner coming up under Hubert Cokes, and so on. The point is that for most of the great black players, their immediate role models were not tournament players, but money players, and thus it is natural to expect that many would follow in that path.

Now if those money players would enter tournaments once in a while they would see the opportunity the same as any other player...