African American pool pros

kaznj said:
Historically speaking, Before the 1960's blacks were not allowed into many pool hall's where top white players played. It was like baseball. There were many great baseball players who played in the negroe leagues, but before 1947 were not allowed in Major League baseball. I would not be surprised to find out that there were many great black pool players who found it difficult or impossible to compete against the Mosconi's, Greenleaf's, or Cranefields.

Yep... two reasons maybe... discrimination and no money. I mean.. get real! Why spent your life working your ass off for something that won't ever pay some real $$. Unless you HAVE to do it.... like a jazz musician.. you don't really have a choice. That's what you were born to do and you gotta do it.
 
both Raj Hundal and Imran Majid have dark skin but they are not Africans, they are Asians where India belongs. And they are from the UK actually ;)

Cicero Murphy must have been the best black player as far as I've read. Very tough competitor, unfortunately usually restricted from participating in major tournaments for he wasn't white. Pretty harsh from the officials.
 
kaznj said:
Historically speaking, Before the 1960's blacks were not allowed into many pool hall's where top white players played. It was like baseball. There were many great baseball players who played in the negroe leagues, but before 1947 were not allowed in Major League baseball. I would not be surprised to find out that there were many great black pool players who found it difficult or impossible to compete against the Mosconi's, Greenleaf's, or Cranefields.
I found you first statements somewhat profound and on point, but you lost me with your final sentence. My very first thought was...Didn't most humans on earth find it "difficult or impossible to compete against the Mosconi's, Greenleaf's, or Cranefields"?

Please explain. Thanks.

Gene
 
cisero murphy mark tadd the late great james evans. Many claimed evans would have robbed mosconi if they ever could have played
 
Cuedog said:
I found you first statements somewhat profound and on point, but you lost me with your final sentence. My very first thought was...Didn't most humans on earth find it "difficult or impossible to compete against the Mosconi's, Greenleaf's, or Cranefields"?

Please explain. Thanks.

Gene

It seems evident that he wasn't saying that they couldn't hang with these guys. What he was saying was that they were never afforded an opportunity to prove it!
 
Puzzled ... ????

Weren't ALL of the afore-mentioned players born in the United States ... ?? ... Wouldn't that make them "American Americans" ... or am I missing something here ... ?? ... My "ancestors" came from Germany and France, but I was born in this country, so that makes me an "American", not a German-American or French-American ... Why must we keep "stirring the pot" of Racial Division by pandering to the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton ... If you are born in this country you are an AMERICAN, period !!!!!

Now, feel free to MF me all you like ...
 
I found it funny that you said we all are america..but have you location listed as what California was called when the spanish owned it..hhahahahaha.. I dont care what you call me..just dont call me a banger..heheh
 
Actually, the term "Kalifornia" is made in reference to the Communist-style State Government we have here on the West Coast ... "Take from the Rich and give to the Lazy" ...
 
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Black Denver player

During my pool playing days in Denver -- the '60s -- a black dude named Andy Hudson was widely regarded as best in town. I watched him many times at the old Family Fun Center on West 38th Avenue. He was past his prime by then, but still capable of packaging some run-outs in nineball. Haven't heard of him or seen him in 40 years, however.


9BP
 
I know they have been mentioned, but.....
cliff joyner
mark tadd
ike runnels

and Im sure there are plenty more that may not be well known. I heard Kareem Abdul Jabbar say once that the best basketball player he ever saw was in a pick up game in a park.....the guy never tried to go pro. Im sure the same applies here. They may just hang out in their area and are world beaters.

Southpaw
 
Cuedog, I was saying they had little or no chance of even getting into competition against the historic greats of the game. As to how they would have done is another debate. It is always fun to hypothesize how athletes of one era would have done in another era. I saw Cicero Murphy compete in Las Vegas in 1971. He was great. Acu-stats has a tape of him competing again Mike Zuglan in straight pool. Unfortunately Murphy was well past his prime and Zuglan was still in his. Murphy only made a few balls on the tape and Zuglan went something like 120 and out.
 
Str8PoolPlayer said:
Weren't ALL of the afore-mentioned players born in the United States ... ?? ... Wouldn't that make them "American Americans" ... or am I missing something here ... ?? ... My "ancestors" came from Germany and France, but I was born in this country, so that makes me an "American", not a German-American or French-American ... Why must we keep "stirring the pot" of Racial Division by pandering to the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton ... If you are born in this country you are an AMERICAN, period !!!!!

Now, feel free to MF me all you like ...

I can state with unequivocal certainty that no person or group has the right to determine how other people define or call themselves or how they wish to be called, and you are certainly no exception. Although you obviously have no say in the matter, I am writing, in the interests of promoting a sense of community and mutual understanding, to clarify a few points regarding your post.

First, I believe that you may be laboring under a misconception as to the provenance of the term "African-American". Whatever your feelings about Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton (and I will not discuss that here), you may be certain that the term neither originates with or owes its current use to either of these two gentlemen. You may go back over two centuries to gentlemen like Prince Hall, to the 19th century Martin Delany, and to numerous luminary figures and movements throughout the African-American sojourn on this continent. Identification with the ancestral homeland of Africa has always been a powerful current in the social, cultural and intellectual development of "Black" America, and the largest organization of "Black" people ever built in the modern era was Marcus Garvey's UNIA, whose entire philosophy was rooted in identification with the African continent. As such, leave Al and Jesse out of this--this issue is bigger than any of them, or any of us.

To address your issue on its merits, I submit that your argument has no basis whatsoever, inasmuch as the term "African-American" explicitly affirms Americanness. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that you can recall countless times that you have referred to people as Irish or Irish-American, or Asian or Asian-American; when in fact they may never have seen the land of their ancestral origin. The term African-American is no different. It simply denotes a particular population group within the American social and political fabric by its historical, cultural and ethnic background rather than on color or race.

In terms of the discourse among public intellectuals who often exert profound influence on public debate and usage, the term African-American, in fact, partly owes its current popularity to a paradigm which challenges the validity of a biological concept of "race". What does race mean as a biological concept in America, for example, when the vast majority of "blacks" have "white" ancestors and the majority of "whites" have "black" ancestors within the last 10 generations? (Yes, that is a fact! Look it up!) As such, terms such as African-American, European-American or Asian-American attepmt to denote various groups in our society on the basis of their group historical and cultural experience rather than on genotype, and it reaffirms that each group is, in fact, American. What is divisive about that? Does the sucess of democracy and equality depend on everyone being the same? Who would determine what that sameness should look like? Would you give up, for meager example, popcorn, the blues, pizza, barbecue, bagels and lox, and pilsner beer (all "American" favorites that are the product of particular ethnic groups) in pursuit of this sameness?

Rather than a melting pot, the better analogy for a multicultural America may be a pungent multi-ingredient stew or paella, in which each of the ingredients lend their own unique flavors to create a whole dish without being boiled down into a gelatinous indistiguishable mass. In the final analysis, ethnic divisiveness will not be resolved by eliminating and submlimating our differences, but by learning to accept and appreciate them. Good day to you sir!

Rudy Krigger, Jr.
A proud African-American
 
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VIProfessor said:
I can state with unequivocal certainty that no person or group has the right to determine how other people define or call themselves or how they wish to be called, and you are certainly no exception. Although you obviously have no say in the matter, I am writing, in the interests of promoting a sense of community and mutual understanding, to clarify a few points regarding your post.

First, I believe that you be laboring under a misconception as to the provenance of the term "African-American". Whatever your feelings about Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton (and I will not discuss that here), you may be certain that the term neither originates with or owes its current use to either of these two gentlemen. You may go back over two centuries to gentlemen like Prince Hall, to the 19th century Martin Delany, and to numerous luminary figures and movements throughout the African-American sojourn on this continent. Identification with the ancestral homeland of African has always been a powerful current in social, cultural and intellectual development of "Black" America, and the largest organization of "Black" people ever built in the modern era was Marcus Garvey's UNIA, whose entire philosophy was rooted in identification with the African continent. As such, leave Al and Jesse out of this--this issue is bigger than any of them, or any of us.

To address your issue on its merits, I submit that your argument has no basis whatsoever, inasmuch as the term "African-American" explicitly affirms Americanness. I am willing to bet dollars to donuts that you can recall countless times that you have referred to people as Irish or Irish-American, or Asian or Asian-American; when in fact they may never have seen the land of their ancestral origin. The term African-American is no different. It simply denotes a particular population group within the American social and political fabric by its historical, cultural and ethnic background rather than on color or race.

In terms of the discourse among public intellectuals who often exert profound influence on public debate and usage, the term African-American, in fact, partly owes its current popularity to a paradigm which challenges the validity of a biological concept of "race". What does race mean as a biological concept in America, for example, when the vast majority of "blacks" have "white" ancestors and the majority of "whites" have "black" ancestors within the last 10 generations? (Yes, that is a fact! Look it up!) As such, terms such as African-American, European-American or Asian-American attepmt to denote various groups in our society on the basis of their group historical and cultural experience rather than on genotype, and it reaffirms that each group is, in fact, American. What is divisive about that? Does the sucess of democracy and equality depend on everyone being the same? Who would determine what that sameness should look like? Would you give up, for meager example, popcorn, the blues, pizza, barbecue, bagels and lox, and pilsner beer (all "American" favorites that are the product of particular ethnic groups) in pursuit of this sameness?

Rather than a melting pot, the better analogy for a multicultural America may be a pungent multi-ingredient stew or paella, in which each of the ingredients lend their own unique flavors to create a whole dish without being boiled down into a gelatinous indistiguishable mass. In the final analysis, ethnic divisiveness will not be resolved by eliminating and submlimating our differences, but by learning to accept and appreciate them. Good day to you sir!

Rudy Krigger, Jr.
A proud African-American

So would you agree then that the Pro Golfer Ernie Els, who is from South Africa, is also an African American?

Southpaw
 
Southpaw said:
So would you agree then that the Pro Golfer Ernie Els, who is from South Africa, is also an African American?

Southpaw

Nice try, Southpaw, but Ernie Els is not American at all. Has he given up his South African citizenship or something? But to answer your question, he is a South African of European descent, or a European-South African.
 
Vahmurka said:
both Raj Hundal and Imran Majid have dark skin but they are not Africans, they are Asians where India belongs. And they are from the UK actually ;)

Cicero Murphy must have been the best black player as far as I've read. Very tough competitor, unfortunately usually restricted from participating in major tournaments for he wasn't white. Pretty harsh from the officials.

Same goes for Tony Chohan.
 
kaznj said:
Cuedog, I was saying they had little or no chance of even getting into competition against the historic greats of the game. As to how they would have done is another debate. It is always fun to hypothesize how athletes of one era would have done in another era. I saw Cicero Murphy compete in Las Vegas in 1971. He was great. Acu-stats has a tape of him competing again Mike Zuglan in straight pool. Unfortunately Murphy was well past his prime and Zuglan was still in his. Murphy only made a few balls on the tape and Zuglan went something like 120 and out.
I would agree with that statement if you are talking about the world stage and most of the major US tournaments, but there were match ups in smaller events and one on one. In fact, I'll try to get it scanned, but I have a photograph of Willie Mosconi posing in the middle of a large, all black group of pool players. I'll see if I can get that posted.

Your point is well taken though kaznj.

Gene
 
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i spend one month a year in Zimbabwe, if you went there, you would understand. I havent seen any poolrooms in South Africa. next time I go I will look around.
 
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