Agent of Change-Hard Core Gambling vs. Professional Play

JAM said:
Well, Vagabond, that was then and this is now, the year 2005. I could tell you about an incident which occurred several decades ago when certain prominent pool players promoted an event and left town with all the tournament monies, leaving their fellow players and peers dry and empty. And there was a tour not so long ago that never paid off its players, but the administration deemed it prudent to stuff their own pockets, again, leaving the players with no recourse. Even today, some pool organizations have their own set of rules which favor a select few, making it impossible for other pool players to be a part of the happenings.

Let me give you a little flavor of what the pool players think about dumping in competitive venues by relaying a story about a recent incident at the Skins Billiards Championship.

At the players' meeting before the event, Allen Hopkins and Billiards International explained the rules and invited questions and concerns. Larry Nevel raised his hand up and asked, "Is there any prevention mechanism to prevent players from saving and/or dumping?," or words to that effect.

Billiards International immediately came forth and stated that anybody caught doing such an atrocity would be banned from all future events. Then Mike Massey, who competed in the event, stood up and said, "And if I catch anybody saving or dumping, I'm going to write about it in every pool magazine, too." He was dead serious. Nobody at the Skins Billiards Championship wanted this magnificant event to be tarnished with that kind of image, to include the players. They were happy to be a part of this event, and it was EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF.

Players are concerned about the image of pool (IMO), and believe it or not, I think folks are doing their damnedest to get rid of this image. To continue dragging pool in the gutter by mentioning dumps, double-crosses, and savers doesn't prove a damn thing. It only muddies the waters for those who are striving to present a good image and move forward to greener pastures.

I can state with 100-percent assurance that I personally would NEVER take part in any dump as it pertains to me and mine, no matter how much money is on the table. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I'd like to see the sport move to the next frontier and excel, and from what I have observed in the past few years, I think other players feel the same way.

When you mentioned in a previous post that it looked as if Keith intentionally missed the 2-9 combo with ball in hand, it looked to me like you were suggesting he did so deliberately, with malice aforethought, and NOTHING could be further from the truth. He's still having nightmares about that miss, what could have been if he went for the run out, but it's all water under the bridge now.

Vagabond, your glass seems to always be half empty, and mine seems to be half full. :p

JAM


Howdy JAM,
I am only a messenger.I was responding to Jude`s wishfull thinking by telling him that it was done once.
If u really want to dwell on the comment I made on Keith`s attempt on the combo ,that is fine with me.But here is my final response on that matter:
n one post I mentioned that I said it in a figurative sense and I did not mean to say that he did that intentionally.I am not a fool to think that he intentionally did that.Keith is known to majority of the pool players in the USA.He will not be able to make others believe (by missing the shots)that he can`t play pool.Keith knows that every body knows him as a great player.The opportunity Keith or any other top Pro, to really hustle some one as a general rule is not there any more.Knowing all this,I will not say that keith intentionally did that.
Glass can`t be half full.This contradicts the meaning of the word full.
It is still not full and it is filled half.
I am getting late to my apointment in NewOrleans.talk to u later.
By the way what is your Zodiac sign? Cheers
Vagabond
 
vagabond said:
Howdy, JAM. I am only a messenger. I was responding to Jude's wishful thinking by telling him that it was done once....

I sure don't want to kill the messenger, Vagabond! ;)

vagabond said:
If you really want to dwell on the comment I made on Keith's attempt on the combo....

I don't want to dwell, Vagabond; I just wanted the record to be straight. The Skins Billiards Championship is innovative and exciting, and there was no hanky panky whatsoever. And FWIW, Keith's still going to be my horse if he NEVER wins a race. :p

vagabond said:
...I am getting late to my apointment in New Orleans. Talk to you later. By the way, what is your Zodiac sign?

Je ne me fais pas entendre si personne ne me repond.

I hate to reveal my sign on a pool forum because I'm the fish! (LOL)

JAM
 
JAM said:
Well, Vagabond, that was then and this is now, the year 2005.
...
At the players' meeting before the event, Allen Hopkins and Billiards International explained the rules and invited questions and concerns. Larry Nevel raised his hand up and asked, "Is there any prevention mechanism to prevent players from saving and/or dumping?," or words to that effect.

Billiards International immediately came forth and stated that anybody caught doing such an atrocity would be banned from all future events. Then Mike Massey, who competed in the event, stood up and said, "And if I catch anybody saving or dumping, I'm going to write about it in every pool magazine, too." He was dead serious. Nobody at the Skins Billiards Championship wanted this magnificant event to be tarnished with that kind of image, to include the players. They were happy to be a part of this event, and it was EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF.

Players are concerned about the image of pool (IMO), and believe it or not, I think folks are doing their damnedest to get rid of this image. To continue dragging pool in the gutter by mentioning dumps, double-crosses, and savers doesn't prove a damn thing. It only muddies the waters for those who are striving to present a good image and move forward to greener pastures.

I can state with 100-percent assurance that I personally would NEVER take part in any dump as it pertains to me and mine, no matter how much money is on the table. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I'd like to see the sport move to the next frontier and excel, and from what I have observed in the past few years, I think other players feel the same way.

JAM

From reading your post, Larry Nevel raised the issue at a players meeting at a serious event. Then Mr. Massey feels that he should reinforce the message. It is being brought up by the pro's in pro events for crying out loud, and you want to sweep it under the rug ? If it is real enough for the issue to come up as you say it did, it is not yet time to forget about it. These problems must be worked out, not ignored. In my mind these types of incidents are part of "working it out" rather than "dragging pool in the gutter". The motivation to participate in underhanded actions for profit must be diminished, and it's tough to do when you are gambling.

Dave
 
DaveK said:
From reading your post, Larry Nevel raised the issue at a players meeting at a serious event. Then Mr. Massey feels that he should reinforce the message. It is being brought up by the pro's in pro events for crying out loud, and you want to sweep it under the rug ? If it is real enough for the issue to come up as you say it did, it is not yet time to forget about it. These problems must be worked out, not ignored. In my mind these types of incidents are part of "working it out" rather than "dragging pool in the gutter". The motivation to participate in underhanded actions for profit must be diminished, and it's tough to do when you are gambling.

FWIW, the Skins tournament wasn't gambling, DaveK. It was a professional exhibition. The point of my post was to express the desires of the players. None of them want to see this type of activity.

As far as sweeping it under the rug, you're damn right. If I know it did not happen with me and mine, I am going to set the record straight when there is ANY mention of "intentionally" missing a shot. And every time somebody assumes because of a loss that it is a dump or a business game, I think that is "dragging pool in the gutter," as you so eloquently state. :(

JAM
 
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The Solution

Why are so many club fights rigged but not the Championship fights?

Why is there so much padding of handicaps in golf but not on the pro tour?

ANSWER - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

IF THE POOL PLAYERS COULD MAKE A FAIR LIVING BY COMPLETELY HONEST TOURNAMENT PLAY, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING TO TALK ABOUT HERE!

TY & GL
 
OldHasBeen said:
Why are so many club fights rigged but not the Championship fights?

Why is there so much padding of handicaps in golf but not on the pro tour?

ANSWER - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

IF THE POOL PLAYERS COULD MAKE A FAIR LIVING BY COMPLETELY HONEST TOURNAMENT PLAY, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING TO TALK ABOUT HERE!

TY & GL

Good point. I think a fine example of this is snooker. With, for example, Steve Davis becoming a multi-millionaire from playing it. Any of the top snooker players would have to be a moron to dump since they have the opportunity to become very rich playing it straight up.

It is often much easier to be honest when you are making a good living.

Wayne
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Trust me, if pool could have five years of organized betting at pro events, the popularity would take off.

Maybe, and maybe not. There has been betting at some UPA events. I recall the betting setup at the World Summit of Pool in NYC in 2003. The book was being run by the Scott Smith, who was also the tournament director and referee. As I was sweating one of the matches, I overheard a conversation between players who were playing in the event about who they had bet on in the match I was watching. Geez, are their enough conflicts of interest here? The referee is running the sports book, and players in the event are permitted to make bets on the matches. Would you make a bet under those circumstances? What kind of betting are we looking for?

Fishermen delight in talking about the big one that got away. Football bettors, and I've never been one of them, all seem to have some great stories about how they lost a bet. Interception returned for a touchdown with two seconds left to cover the spread, missed extra point that would have covered the spread. Still, the pool betters would outdo the fishermen and the football bettors with stories like:

1) I bet that Harriman would get to eight against Deuel, but he unscrewed at 5- 2.
2) I gave up 3/1 that Frost would win that one, but he didn't show up for the match.
3) I had Deuel in that one, but he had to leave during the match to go and play golf.

In short, pool needs to clean up its act a little to represent a betting event that would be viewed as legitimate.
 
sjm said:
2) I gave up 3/1 that Frost would win that one, but he didn't show up for the match.


Howdy,
scott repeated his Hudini act.He did not show for his quarter final match in US Open one pocket in LosVegas in Oct 2004.He is all right.He is a cool Dude.
Vagabond
 
OldHasBeen said:
Why are so many club fights rigged but not the Championship fights?

Why is there so much padding of handicaps in golf but not on the pro tour?

ANSWER - $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

IF THE POOL PLAYERS COULD MAKE A FAIR LIVING BY COMPLETELY HONEST TOURNAMENT PLAY, THERE WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING TO TALK ABOUT HERE!

TY & GL

But that's like saying, "If I had a million dollars, I wouldn't have to work." The work comes first and then the money follows....it's just that kind of universe. I see the women taking this path and it seems to me, out here in the cheap seats, that it is working. But I'm not really in the know.

But this I do know: Value has to first be created, then there is a secure foundation. Upon that foundation comes the "building," the money, etc.

imho,

Jeff Livingston
 
THE PROBLEM & THE SOLUTION. "Just a story".

The Place - A Major Tournament.
The Time - Long, Long Ago.
Player #1 - ???
Player #2 - ???
The Backer - ???
The Bookie - ???

Player #1 was playing very well and about midway through the board. His backer was losing big money by betting on everything & anything in sight and just going off in general. This backer wouldn't let his player make any money gambling because he was stuck so much and didn't want to give up the 50% to his player even if he were to win. Player #1 was stuck for all room charges including F & B, was broke and in debt at home.
The bookie was winning money hands over fists by making the line on all the games and able to operate wide open because he was IN with the powers to be at this tourney.
Here comes the tournament game between player #1 & player #2 in which player #2 was given a 2 game spot going to 9. Unbeknown to the general public (including the Backer & Bookie) was the fact that this would be a very tough & close game for both players.

Now the tourney only payed about $4K for 1st place and here was an obvious opportunity for player #1 & 2 to make some money that (if playing ANY other sport) would at least pay the "NUT" and a small earnings.

THE VICTUMS - The Backer & the Bookie who couldn't draw a cue ball 2 inches if their lives depended on it. They only had (illegal) MONEY, and were just USING pool players (like chess pieces) so they could "Look Like Big Shots" and basically steal the Cash from the Spectators & Players alike.

Now don't say the Spectators were ripped off - because they could have bet either way.

NOW WOULD THIS SCENARIO HAPPEN - IF - 1ST PLACE WAS PAYING $25K AND THE PLAYERS WHO FINISHED IN THE TOP 50% MADE AT LEAST EXPENSE MONEY ???

TY & GL
 
vagabond said:
Howdy,
scott repeated his Hudini act.He did not show for his quarter final match in US Open one pocket in LosVegas in Oct 2004.He is all right..........
Vagabond

No, Vagabond, he is all wrong.
 
JAM said:
...that is "dragging pool in the gutter," as you so eloquently state. :(

JAM

:) I was quoting your phrase there JAM :) I have always heard the saying as "dragging whatever THROUGH the gutter" ... Be that as it may, the entire issue of dumping only arrises when there are side bets on the outcome. Why would the issue be raised by a player if there was no reason to (ie, no side gambling on the matches) ? As long as there is more money in the side betting than the event winnings, dumping is a possibility given the player whose major motivation is money ! I believe that there are many, many professional players who share your abhoration of dumping, but those with the 'gotta get the cash' attitude could be a different story....

Dave
 
DaveK said:
...Be that as it may, the entire issue of dumping only arrises when there are side bets on the outcome. Why would the issue be raised by a player if there was no reason to (i.e., no side gambling on the matches)? As long as there is more money in the side betting than the event winnings, dumping is a possibility given the player whose major motivation is money....

Actually, DaveK, there was MORE MONEY on the table at the Skins Billiards Championship that a lot of these pool players have seen in a very, very long time in a competitive venue, $130,000. There was the opportunity for a player to win a higher amount than what Niels won, $42,500.

There was, uniequivocally, absolutely NO SIDE BETTING at the Skins tourney, and EVERY SINGLE PLAYER most definitely had that "gotta get the cash" attitude going! So there you have it.

I think the players ensuring within themselves, as a group, that they desired to exercise integrity and good sportsmanship with no hanky panky is a good thing. Others see it differently, I guess.

JAM
 
JAM said:
Actually, DaveK, there was MORE MONEY on the table at the Skins Billiards Championship that a lot of these pool players have seen in a very, very long time in a competitive venue, $130,000. There was the opportunity for a player to win a higher amount than what Niels won, $42,500.

There was, uniequivocally, absolutely NO SIDE BETTING at the Skins tourney, and EVERY SINGLE PLAYER most definitely had that "gotta get the cash" attitude going! So there you have it.

I think the players ensuring within themselves, as a group, that they desired to exercise integrity and good sportsmanship with no hanky panky is a good thing. Others see it differently, I guess.

JAM

When the only cash in question is prize money, the 'gotta get the cash' attitude is really a 'wanna win the tourney' attitude. When there is side action and action rooms within a tournament, then the 'gotta get the cash' attitude may take very different paths (like dumping to cash in large on an arranged side bet, skipping the tourney match to play an action match, etc.). It is the side gambling that creates the conflict of interest. If the event payout is huge, and the side betting small, the conflict is small. If the payout is small and the side action large, the conflict is large. If there was no side betting as you say (and I do not doubt you whatsoever), why would a player ask about dumping ? (this is a bit of a rhetorical question, it can be very difficult to rationalize words out of some pool players mouths).

I agree that no hanky-panky is essential to the well being of the game, and for it's growth. I also agree that some think the hanky panky is the main attraction to pool, something that I do not understand at all. One can gamble / swindle / con within any context, why pick on pool ?

Dave
 
I Agree, But ........

I agree that the game needs to be cleaned up (including very serious consequences) and the concept of "Dumping" SHOULD NEVER EVEN BE IN QUESTION, BUT as long as there is expenses to be paid, money to be won, and THE TOURNEY $$$ ISN'T ENOUGH TO GO AROUND, "We Got Trouble"! And Yes, that begins with a T and rhymes with a P and that stands for POOL.

#3. - GOTTA GET THE MONEY -
#2. - GOTTA GET THE SPONSERS -
#1. - GOTTA GET THE NON-POOL PLAYING TV AUDIENCE WATCHING POOL.

TY & GL
 
The announcers for pool, when using the telestrator (sp?), half the time demonstrate the incorrect shot for 9 ball. Just think what would happen if they were trying to diagram when Efren was looking over the table during a game of one pocket. You don't see John Madden drawing on the screen as the team comes up to the line

No, John Madden doesn't draw on the screen - but he does know how to play pool. And he now cuts wood. Poolplayer - CUEMAKER. And with a celebrity (sp) name you have to have fun with it - don't you think - I don't have a lot of chances other than "are you related to John Madden?" questions - dah, sure I am - I am John Madden. Check out the pool world's own John Madden.
John Madden
www.johnmaddencues.com
 
Televise pool gambling

I think the public would be much more interested in watching top players gamble with each other. ESPN should also televise players negotiating how much they will play for. Another idea might to have hidden cameras as a top level player travels the road gambling. I agree that people would actually like to see money change hands or playing till one is busted out or throws in the towel.

thanks,
marcus
 
I was watching the WPBA last night with Gerta playing against Kelly Fisher, Allison, and Karen. I haven't seen Gerta in a while now and wondered where she'd been. Mitch Laurence mentioned a little about how she hadn't been playing much for the last couple of years but didn't say why. It occurred to me that it would be nice if Mitch would spend a little more time and energy on the players personal traits or activities a little more. I think if the viewing public got more information on the players personal lives (of course discretion would have to be used) people would get to know the players more as people and not just players with no personality. Just a thought.
 
Rickw said:
Mitch Laurence mentioned a little about how she hadn't been playing much for the last couple of years but didn't say why. It occurred to me that it would be nice if Mitch would spend a little more time and energy on the players personal traits or activities a little more. I think if the viewing public got more information on the players personal lives (of course discretion would have to be used) people would get to know the players more as people and not just players with no personality. Just a thought.

I saw another match, not sure when exactly, but she was interviewed and she said she's attending NYU business school now and her top priority is school. I think it was the same series. The matches are back to back, but aired over 2 weeks, so unless you watch them all you may have missed it. He probably should have mentioned something, knowing how it will be aired, but I can see how that can easily be overseen.
 
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