"Aim Small" on the Cue Ball

Are you saying jump shots are faster, and faster = less chance of skid (like faster reduces normal throw)? That makes intuitive sense, but it argues against bouncing CBs causing skid, not for it.

Anyway, CBs bounce at pretty much all speeds, not just on jump shots.

pj
chgo
...Ronnie O'Sullivan playing a power draw (screw) shot with outside english (side) and pretty good power and he clearly got a skid (kick). The ball was over cut and the cue ball barely drew back.
I think the jump speed likely overrides the bounce factor that contributes to skids. Skids on pool tables only happen at velocities less than jump speed, right?
And the Ronnie skid at speed? Perhaps coz nooker balls are more susceptible coz of their size? Allowing skids to happen at higher velocities?
 
There are even shots where you try to hit the OB with the CB in the air (like the one where you cut the second frozen ball on the spot into the corner). But as you point out this causes an overcut, the opposite of what happens with skid.
If people want to see an exaggerated example of this, see the following video:

I think those British snooker commentators are seeing the CB bounce a little after contact with the OB and mistaking this for an indicator of skid. It can be, but isn't always.
Agreed. Cling (AKA "kick") can certainly cause ball hop (as illustrated in HSV B.46 - CB and OB hop and spin transfer during follow shots), but cling is certainly not the only cause for ball hop (as described and demonstrated on the ball hop resource page).

Good myth-busting thread,
Dave
 
Presumably the way to minimize cling / kick effects would be to use low outside (so that on impact the cb is both sliding and perfectly geared)?
The key to preventing throw is the sidespin. Therefore, the "low" isn't required to keep the OB on line.

Or you could just twat it.
That approach can also be beneficial, especially if you stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before.

Regards,
Dave
 
The key to preventing throw is the sidespin. Therefore, the "low" isn't required to keep the OB on line.

That approach can also be beneficial, especially if you stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before.

Regards,
Dave

Yes, but the OB going off-line is not the only bad effect of clings / kicks. You also get an inelastic collision that takes all the pace off the CB. So a stun run through is often better than a slow roll in that respect.
 
Yes, but the OB going off-line is not the only bad effect of clings / kicks. You also get an inelastic collision that takes all the pace off the CB.
Agree. Cling can also have a big effect on straight (or nearly straight) follow shots due to the loss of CB spin during the collision, which can drastically reduce the amount of follow, as demonstrated in the following video:

Regards,
Dave
 
There are even shots where you try to hit the OB with the CB in the air (like the one where you cut the second frozen ball on the spot into the corner). But as you point out this causes an overcut, the opposite of what happens with skid.

I think those British snooker commentators are seeing the CB bounce a little after contact with the OB and mistaking this for an indicator of skid. It can be, but isn't always.

pj
chgo

And I think American nerds are swiftly backpeddling, after claiming all bad contacts are the result of chalk or pixie dust.
 
Yes, I think that often skids happen when you use slow inside follow. I think I've even done an intentional skid that way one time. If you think about the path of the chalk spot, inside follow has a good chance to put the chalk spot at the contact point depending on the distance and amount of spin.
Bob, I don't see inside follow, or outside follow for that matter, potentially bringing the fresh chalk mark into the CB-OB contact area unless we're talking about nearly straight shots. If you cue along the 1:30 radius, for example, the spin equator is initially aligned along the 1:30-7:30 diameter as seen from the shooter's perspective. It will then tend to "rotate" counter-clockwise (reorient itself) and become more vertical as the CB picks up more topspin. If you cue along the 10:30 radius, the spin equator is initially aligned with the 10:30-4:30 diameter and will then precede to "rotate" clockwise to become more vertical. In either case, it never comes close to a horizontal orientation. No???

But there is a video of Ronnie O'Sullivan playing a power draw (screw) shot with outside english (side) and pretty good power and he clearly got a skid (kick). The ball was over cut and the cue ball barely drew back.
Draw with english does present a risk because of the same counter-clockwise or clockwise reorientation. But with draw, the spin equator passes through the horizontal plane if the CB doesn't reach the OB first.

Jim
 
I think American nerds are swiftly backpeddling, after claiming all bad contacts are the result of chalk or pixie dust.
LOL. Sorry, but "bad contacts" are the result of excess friction, just as we cheeky Colonists have been saying.

You really needn't feel so insecure about it - your belief that "impure" strokes and bouncing cue balls are to blame is actually kind of cute.

pj
chgo
 
Bob, I don't see inside follow, or outside follow for that matter, potentially bringing the fresh chalk mark into the CB-OB contact area unless we're talking about nearly straight shots. If you cue along the 1:30 radius, for example, the spin equator is initially aligned along the 1:30-7:30 diameter as seen from the shooter's perspective. It will then tend to "rotate" counter-clockwise (reorient itself) and become more vertical as the CB picks up more topspin. If you cue along the 10:30 radius, the spin equator is initially aligned with the 10:30-4:30 diameter and will then precede to "rotate" clockwise to become more vertical. In either case, it never comes close to a horizontal orientation. No???

Draw with english does present a risk because of the same counter-clockwise or clockwise reorientation. But with draw, the spin equator passes through the horizontal plane if the CB doesn't reach the OB first.

Jim
I think it should be said that this doesn't mean the chalk mark from the immediate hit is likely to be the culprit or that these kinds of spin increase the chances of skid appreciably. If skid happens on one of these kinds of shots it's way more likely that a chalk mark left by a previous hit (or some other spot of something) is to blame.

pj
chgo
 
Bob, I don't see inside follow, or outside follow for that matter, potentially bringing the fresh chalk mark into the CB-OB contact area unless we're talking about nearly straight shots. If you cue along the 1:30 radius, for example, the spin equator is initially aligned along the 1:30-7:30 diameter as seen from the shooter's perspective. It will then tend to "rotate" counter-clockwise (reorient itself) and become more vertical as the CB picks up more topspin. If you cue along the 10:30 radius, the spin equator is initially aligned with the 10:30-4:30 diameter and will then precede to "rotate" clockwise to become more vertical. In either case, it never comes close to a horizontal orientation. No?...
Hmm. Maybe. I can sort of see how without friction from the cloth and a level stick the spot crosses the ball's equator (where all ball-ball contact occurs for non-bouncing balls) directly in front of the shooter. I don't see yet how that equator crossing location will change as the cue ball starts rolling smoothly and/or starts losing its side spin. I think Virtual Pool probably has the necessary simulation machinery to answer the question.
 
For the nth time: no type of stroke or shot causes skid. It's caused by chance when the contact point between the balls happens to have higher than normal friction (usually a chalk smudge at the contact point).

pj
chgo

you may have to rethink this, Patrick
 
LOL. Sorry, but "bad contacts" are the result of excess friction, just as we cheeky Colonists have been saying.

You really needn't feel so insecure about it - your belief that "impure" strokes and bouncing cue balls are to blame is actually kind of cute.

pj
chgo

It's not my belief, but the belief of the snooker world.

Still, Stuart Bingham's 'kind of cute', eh?


Stuart%20Bingham.JPG
 
I think it should be said that this doesn't mean the chalk mark from the immediate hit is likely to be the culprit or that these kinds of spin increase the chances of skid appreciably. If skid happens on one of these kinds of shots it's way more likely that a chalk mark left by a previous hit (or some other spot of something) is to blame.
I agree. With some cue balls, conditions, and chalk, the CB gets covered with chalk marks/smudges during a game. Even for a straight follow shot, where the chances are greatest for a new chalk mark to end up a the ball contact point, the odds of hitting the new mark are very low over a range of CB distances. Assuming about a 1/4" chalk mark size, the chances are only 3-4% (0.25 / (2.25*pi)), assuming the CB is struck very close to the CB vertical centerline (so there is no sidespin component).

Regards,
Dave
 
...no type of stroke or shot causes skid. It's caused by chance when the contact point between the balls happens to have higher than normal friction (usually a chalk smudge at the contact point).

pj
chgo
sheffield6:
you may have to rethink this, Patrick
Unless you've got something better than that infotainment fluff piece by the BBC (Thaig's "indepth study"), I think I'll just rethink whether your posts are worth looking at.

pj
chgo
 
p.s. "infotainment" good word.
But my information is based on personal experience.
If you want to believe that bad contacts are caused solely by chalk and other foreign matter at the contact point,and not by bad cueing and certain types of shot then i am happy in the knowlege, that you are wrong and i am right.
One question, are you a member of the flat earth society?
 
I agree. With some cue balls, conditions, and chalk, the CB gets covered with chalk marks/smudges during a game. Even for a straight follow shot, where the chances are greatest for a new chalk mark to end up a the ball contact point, the odds of hitting the new mark are very low over a range of CB distances. Assuming about a 1/4" chalk mark size, the chances are only 3-4% (0.25 / (2.25*pi)), assuming the CB is struck very close to the CB vertical centerline (so there is no sidespin component).

Regards,
Dave

Well, Doc, I really wish you and Bob would examine the effects of static
electricity....I'm convinced that it is a reason for SOME skids.
I have some pretty good empirical evidence.

You have probably never played on cloth as thick as some snooker tables
have either. A ball sitting deep in the cloth causes skids also.

I DO think chalk and grime is the most common offender.
 
Well, Doc, I really wish you and Bob would examine the effects of static
electricity....I'm convinced that it is a reason for SOME skids.
I have some pretty good empirical evidence.

You have probably never played on cloth as thick as some snooker tables
have either. A ball sitting deep in the cloth causes skids also.

I DO think chalk and grime is the most common offender.

pt,

I also think that in pool and maybe more so on coin tables with 'cheaper' cloth, an OB struck by a CB hit with high 'soft' inside english can, but not always, jump a bit caused by the downward spin hitting it relative to the speed on the shot. (the spin to speed ratio) I may be wrong but I have noticed it more on those shots than others so I give it some credit for the 'skid' over just other conditions. Other wise, why would I notice them more on that type of shot.

Regards,
 
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