Aim vs. Stroke error poll

[Colin Colenso]

A Test Idea

I'd like to see the following test trialled.

Have a relatively difficult pot set up with bridge in place and balls on exact markers. Have the vision of the OB blocked so that the player can only see the bridge and the CB.

Have players of various abilities make 10-20 attempts at hitting the CB dead center. Measure their pot accuracy. A measure of their stroke accuracy.

Then have the same players line up the shot. A dot on the shaft at the bridge point determines their bridge position and hence aim line. (Wouldn't matter much if the dot was not exactly at their bridge point, so long as the shaft was lined up relatively close to the CB center). That position is compared to the set bridge line through the center of the CB. An overhead camera with a gridded glass plate could be used to establish the dot position with considerable accuracy.
A bit of simple math and we can determine how accurately these players can actually align to the shot.

This kind of test could provide a lot of information about the relative accuracies of aiming and stroking and how that might change according to player levels.

Colin

 

[av84fun]

Another relevant question for those who have trouble with stroking is:

Do you stroke poorly on some shots due to poor mechanics / ability to stroke through a line?

Or do you stroke poorly more often due to second guessing, not trusting the line? Such as trying to swoop a little to make the shot go a little thicker or thinner.

Colin

Excellent point Colin. I think LOTS of players who have should strokes will, from time to time, "guide" the stroke at the last second.

IMHO, that is largely due to a mistrust of the decided upon aim line and a last second "correction" which turns out to be a miscorrection.

The other reason for swooping is shooting hard and "snatching" the grip so that the swoop is forced, not intentional.

Regards,
Jim

 

[av84fun]

Dave, I didn't vote because I think you need a 3rd category..."the same"

In addition, there are subtle sub-categories to "raw aim."

Imbedded in the aim category are the issues you have so informatively written about...sqwerve, CIT, SIT.

So "raw aim" i.e. seeing the correct CP...is only part of the battle. SENDING the CB to the correct place involves correct compensations for the issues mentioned above.

IMHO, the largest single cause of misses...at least at the B level, is the improper compensation for side. So, I guess I was tempted to vote "aim"
but my true feeling is that aim and stroke errors are about equal for the "average" player.

Regards,
Jim

 

[dr_dave]

aiming is tough

I agree. Accurate aiming (including any necessary compensation) is a big challenge of pool, as is developing a perfect stroke and perfect speed control.

Regards,
Dave

Aiming isn't a science, despite what some system users think. It involves many kinds of estimation:

- estimating where the OB contact point is by aligning it with the pocket, from a distance and an angle

- estimating how to adjust the OB contact point for throw

- estimating where the CB contact point is by imagining where it is on the "dark side" of the CB (this is part 1 of the subject of aiming systems)

- estimating how to align the CB and OB so the two contact points come together (this is part 2 of the subject of aiming systems)

- estimating how to position your head and eyes so all the above things are visualized correctly (this is part 2A of the subject of aiming systems)

This is only a partial list of the estimations required just for aiming (not stroking), and only for shots without sidespin (don't get me started).

Even with a perfect stroke aiming isn't a simple, mechanically repeatable process. It's probably impossible to really know how much of your pocketing problem is related to aim vs. stroke. I didn't vote in this poll, even though I think it's an interesting one, because I just don't know how to tell.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

"aim" vs. "stroke"

I wanted to keep things simple. In the poll, I mean "aim" to be everything that happens (e.g., alignment, adjustments, pivots, etc.) before the final "stroke." If somebody compensates aim or alignment during the final "stroke" (e.g., with a "swoop" stroke), consciously or otherwise, then I consider that part of the stroke.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, I didn't vote because I think you need a 3rd category..."the same"

In addition, there are subtle sub-categories to "raw aim."

Imbedded in the aim category are the issues you have so informatively written about...sqwerve, CIT, SIT.

So "raw aim" i.e. seeing the correct CP...is only part of the battle. SENDING the CB to the correct place involves correct compensations for the issues mentioned above.

IMHO, the largest single cause of misses...at least at the B level, is the improper compensation for side. So, I guess I was tempted to vote "aim"
but my true feeling is that aim and stroke errors are about equal for the "average" player.

Regards,
Jim

 

[jongreve]

I wanted to keep things simple. In the poll, I mean "aim" to be everything that happens (e.g., alignment, adjustments, pivots, etc.) before the final "stroke." If somebody compensates aim or alignment during the final "stroke" (e.g., with a "swoop" stroke), consciously or otherwise, then I consider that part of the stroke.

Regards,
Dave

I miss more shots due to a break down in fundamentals than I do because I chose the wrong contact point on the object ball.

I selected "stroke error"

I am now realizing that if the cue ball doesn't reach its desired location for whatever reason, some here would always consider that an aiming fault. Something to ponder I suppose.

 

[klockdoc]

I'd like to see the following test trialled.

Have a relatively difficult pot set up with bridge in place and balls on exact markers. Have the vision of the OB blocked so that the player can only see the bridge and the CB.

Have players of various abilities make 10-20 attempts at hitting the CB dead center. Measure their pot accuracy. A measure of their stroke accuracy.

Then have the same players line up the shot. A dot on the shaft at the bridge point determines their bridge position and hence aim line. (Wouldn't matter much if the dot was not exactly at their bridge point, so long as the shaft was lined up relatively close to the CB center). That position is compared to the set bridge line through the center of the CB. An overhead camera with a gridded glass plate could be used to establish the dot position with considerable accuracy.
A bit of simple math and we can determine how accurately these players can actually align to the shot.

This kind of test could provide a lot of information about the relative accuracies of aiming and stroking and how that might change according to player levels.

Colin

Colin, In your test, do you think that using a bridge eliminates one of the functions that you have to concentrate on when making the shot?

Therefore addressing all your concentration on the stroke and allowing a more repeatable result for the aiming process?

I know for certain that it is my stroke that causes most of my misses. I miss some due to aim, but, my stroke repeatability well outweighs my aiming capabilities.

 

[dr_dave]

speed and English effects

Jal,

Excellent points. To me, the "aim" is much tougher than the "stroke" in general; although, I also seem to suffer more stroke flaws at faster speeds. "Aim" is tough because it includes 3D visualization, visual perception, and compensation for CIT (with no English) and/or squirt/swerve/throw with English. I probably should have specified "non English" shots in the poll to keep things more simple.

Regards,
Dave

Since you ask what we 'think' as opposed to what we 'know', I would say that I probably miss more moderately paced shots because of aiming errors, while more high speed shots from stroking problems.

Before reading these forums, I never knew it was so difficult to get the cueball to go where you wanted it to go...now I'm all messed up about that too.

I think a lot of people wrongly attribute misses caused by an incorrect adjustment for squirt/swerve/throw to stroke - with perhaps throw being at the top of the list since it occurs in the absence of any applied english, and can vary considerably from shot to shot.

Jim

 

[frankncali]

While I think both are very important I think its pretty easy to see that
aiming has to be more important. The stroke comes after it.

You can have the straightest most pure stroke in the world yet be lined up wrong and you will miss.

If I can aim even 95% accurate on shots then you will pocket more balls.
If I line up incorrectly on 95% of balls I would miss almost every shot.

You need both.


For a few months now I have been thinking about something similiar and wondering how to do it. I would like methods that give 100% accurate
results to shooting at 1/8 inche targets.

In other words a way to practice where you can shoot at different angles to 1/8 inche spots. I would want to get results as accurate as possible.

I figure that in practice we are aiming at balls and holes. Far too much leeway. In practice we should aim at smaller targets.

I was a pitcher. During a pro tryout I once got the advice to change my practice to throwing to inch targets and then divide the plate into inch strips.
Until then I was extremely accurate in the strike zone and even to the corners but that was not enough to get to the next level.

 

[av84fun]

Goctcha...but still, "equal" is as valid a choice as aim or stroke and I am sure whould change the results if it was present.


Regards,
Jim

I wanted to keep things simple. In the poll, I mean "aim" to be everything that happens (e.g., alignment, adjustments, pivots, etc.) before the final "stroke." If somebody compensates aim or alignment during the final "stroke" (e.g., with a "swoop" stroke), consciously or otherwise, then I consider that part of the stroke.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

equal is not common

Goctcha...but still, "equal" is as valid a choice as aim or stroke and I am sure whould change the results if it was present.

I thought about including "equal" as an option, but I thought it might "dilute" the results too much. If a person thinks he or she truly misses shots equally frequently due to both, that person can just not vote; but I would think most people could choose one or the other after thinking about it a while.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[pooltchr]

Even with a perfect stroke aiming isn't a simple, mechanically repeatable process. It's probably impossible to really know how much of your pocketing problem is related to aim vs. stroke. I didn't vote in this poll, even though I think it's an interesting one, because I just don't know how to tell.

pj
chgo

pj, we actually teach some things in pool school that will help anyone quickly identify the source of most problems. I no longer wonder why I missed a shot. When I miss, I am quite confident I know what went wrong. The feedback we get from the spf stroke will pretty much let you know if something went wrong physically. If it was a good stroke, then it's most likely I aimed at the wrong spot.

BTW..I voted aiming. After teaching and demonstrating SPF to so many students over the years, it's actually a pretty solid habit for me.

And for the majority, who voted stroke flaws, I would like to invite you to attend one of our pool schools. We can offer a lot of help in that area.

Steve

 

[Jal]

Excellent point Colin. I think LOTS of players who have should strokes will, from time to time, "guide" the stroke at the last second.

IMHO, that is largely due to a mistrust of the decided upon aim line and a last second "correction" which turns out to be a miscorrection....

Great point too, Jim. I think my "stroke" goes awry most often when I'm not completely comfortable with the chosen aim line.

Jim

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, In your test, do you think that using a bridge eliminates one of the functions that you have to concentrate on when making the shot?

Therefore addressing all your concentration on the stroke and allowing a more repeatable result for the aiming process?

I know for certain that it is my stroke that causes most of my misses. I miss some due to aim, but, my stroke repeatability well outweighs my aiming capabilities.

Not sure I know exactly what your asking klocdoc but I'll try to answer.

Some people think that they aim by pointing the tip. On shots with English this partly true when not using BHE.

But to me, what determines aim (or alignment of shot) is the position that the cue sits on the fulcrum of the bridge. Draw line from that point through the center of the CB and that is your aim line.

If the bridge is at the effective pivot point for the shot, that remains your aim line no matter how much english is applied to the CB. The only thing that changes that is sideways swooping, which is generally only achieve deliberately or by second guessing for people with reasonable strokes.

Most people bridge pretty close to their effective pivot point, so being silghtly off on hitting the CB dead center cancels out most of the error. so long as the cue does not swoop significantly.

Hope that makes sense,
Colin

edit: In the test, the bridge has been preset to the perfect aim line. Hence, only a stroke requirement is needed to complete the shot. As for more advances shots with English, the stroke control becomes more important because it requires some control of offset and speed.

 

[randyg]

Scott,

I'd like to see you tackle some real difficult to aim shots on the snooker table and then see how well your stroke knocks them in.

IMHO, the biggest mistake I made in the first 20+ years of pool was assuming I had aimed correctly. And I think that is a mistake that most players will make their entire pool lives.

I did so many thousands of cueing drills in the mirror, with various equipment to ensure straightness, including a laser attached to my cue that I became very familiar with the straightness of my stroke. That did little to improve my aim.

That said, I aimed pretty good, but not as well as pro snooker players. And they too often miss due to incorrect aim on long and difficult shots.

Colin

If Scott dosen't take that challange, I will...randyg

 

[dr_dave]

aiming is tougher than stroking

Scott,

I'd like to see you tackle some real difficult to aim shots on the snooker table and then see how well your stroke knocks them in.

If Scott dosen't take that challange, I will...randyg

What is the challenge, exactly? Is it to prove that somebody with a very good stroke (e.g., Scott or Randy) will still miss tough shots on a snooker table? I think the answer to this question is obviously yes. IMO, it is much easier to develop a good stroke than it is to develop perfect aiming. The complexities of 3D visualization, visual perception, and alignment make aiming tough.

Regards,
Dave

 

[whitewolf]

Scott,

I'd like to see you tackle some real difficult to aim shots on the snooker table and then see how well your stroke knocks them in.

IMHO, the biggest mistake I made in the first 20+ years of pool was assuming I had aimed correctly. And I think that is a mistake that most players will make their entire pool lives.

I did so many thousands of cueing drills in the mirror, with various equipment to ensure straightness, including a laser attached to my cue that I became very familiar with the straightness of my stroke. That did little to improve my aim.

That said, I aimed pretty good, but not as well as pro snooker players. And they too often miss due to incorrect aim on long and difficult shots.

Colin

Colin, since you appear to be SUPER left brained, I can only imagine that for 20+ years you used screwed up aiming systems, like Dr. Dave and other left brainers might do. I can only imagine how tortured you mind must be :grin: with the laser beams and all.

Have you ever tried the 'Ghost Ball Method'? Or spinning the ball into the hole like Earl or Efren?

My home Diamond table has 4 1/4: pockets. I also used to practice with large balls on snooker tables, and it does improve you pocketing skills, FOR A SHORT TIME ONLY, because your level of concentration is hightened. Kind of like the law of supply and demand in economics. From my experience, since I aim the same ALL of the time, I find that I shoot best when my stroke is loose and glides. So you can give us your experience all day long, but there are others on my side also.

Ultimately, it is your stroke that makes the difference in potting balls. Scott and Randy and totally correct here.

 

[JoeyA]

I think aiming, or proper alignment is far more crucial for actually potting balls.

Here is a thread where I discussed this and an experiement I tried a couple of years ago.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=26809

Unfortunately the image is now gone. It was a shot from near the baulk line to an OB about 2 diamonds from the corner pocket at 3/4 ball cut angle.

With balls replaced exacly on each shot, and a bridge set in place, I could replicate the shot with high accuracy even though my stroking position was uncomfortable, and even when I deliberately didn't stroke perfectly. Just hit about the center of the CB and the OB kept going in without touching a rail.

This shot is not extremely hard, but it is missable and hitting it in center pocket every time is very hard to do.

Colin

I missed that thread back in 2006 but as always, I appreciate your efforts and perspective. I think alignment is the biggest problem of all, although I picked stroking as my choice in the poll.
Thanks!
JoeyA

 

[Colin Colenso]

What is the challenge, exactly? Is it to prove that somebody with a very good stroke (e.g., Scott or Randy) will still miss tough shots on a snooker table? I think the answer to this question is obviously yes. IMO, it is much easier to develop a good stroke than it is to develop perfect aiming. The complexities of 3D visualization, visual perception, and alignment make aiming tough.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,
It was kind of said in jest but there is some substance to it. The point being, that when you have to pot long shots or difficult shots on a snooker table (that usually has much smaller pockets than US players are used to) that the player can execute his stroke as perfectly as he can imagine, yet miss shots the majority of the time due to not being able to aim the shots correctly.

My opinion is that US table players are more prone than snooker players to blame their stroke, rather than their aim, because they don't have to deal with as many shots that require very accurate aiming.

And hence I think they might change their opinions on aim v stroke errors when they had to play some really accurate pots. Because they could stroke the ball 50 times perfectly and never make the ball.

Colin

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin, since you appear to be SUPER left brained, I can only imagine that for 20+ years you used screwed up aiming systems, like Dr. Dave and other left brainers might do. I can only imagine how tortured you mind must be :grin: with the laser beams and all.

Have you ever tried the 'Ghost Ball Method'? Or spinning the ball into the hole like Earl or Efren?

My home Diamond table has 4 1/4: pockets. I also used to practice with large balls on snooker tables, and it does improve you pocketing skills, FOR A SHORT TIME ONLY, because your level of concentration is hightened. Kind of like the law of supply and demand in economics. From my experience, since I aim the same ALL of the time, I find that I shoot best when my stroke is loose and glides. So you can give us your experience all day long, but there are others on my side also.

Ultimately, it is your stroke that makes the difference in potting balls. Scott and Randy and totally correct here.

Hi Whitewolf,
I couldn't find a question in you post but I'll reply anyway:grin:

I don't buy the left v right brain stuff. I'm just mental full stop

I like to try everything, and to understand every system, method or shot. I can play very aggressively or very tactically. I think most left brained people prefer tactics and controlled shots. Maybe you can enlighten me?

I did a test that said I was 70% right brained, but go figure, half the questions I could have answered either way.

Does this video look like the work of a left brainer to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keznf66dSHE
Colin