Aim vs. Stroke error poll

[Colin Colenso]

I missed that thread back in 2006 but as always, I appreciate your efforts and perspective. I think alignment is the biggest problem of all, although I picked stroking as my choice in the poll.
Thanks!
JoeyA

Joey,
You're one of a few guys I really respect and admire here.

For that reason, I ask you to start paying attention to your aim and start believing in your stroke. Just coz I want to see you making more balls. :smile:

And if that don't work, then blame the table!

Colin

 

[dr_dave]

alignment is part of aiming

I think alignment is the biggest problem of all, although I picked stroking as my choice in the poll.

Why did you do that? Don't you consider "alignment" part of aiming?

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

snooker is hard, so is aiming

Well stated. I agree. Precise aiming is difficult for a human without a laser gizmo.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,
It was kind of said in jest but there is some substance to it. The point being, that when you have to pot long shots or difficult shots on a snooker table (that usually has much smaller pockets than US players are used to) that the player can execute his stroke as perfectly as he can imagine, yet miss shots the majority of the time due to not being able to aim the shots correctly.

My opinion is that US table players are more prone than snooker players to blame their stroke, rather than their aim, because they don't have to deal with as many shots that require very accurate aiming.

And hence I think they might change their opinions on aim v stroke errors when they had to play some really accurate pots. Because they could stroke the ball 50 times perfectly and never make the ball.

Colin

 

[Flex]

I personally think that proper alignment problems relate more to stroke problems, don't you?

To me, alignment means:

Where are your feet? Do you have an open or closed stance? Is your head directly over the cue or is your dominant eye?

You can aim perfectly but if your alignment is off then your stroke will surely suffer.

Alignment is a personal thing. By that I mean it varies from one person to the next. How one stands, where one's head is placed, how one sights and so on are all personal things.

Obviously, there are general principles that can be applied to each of those items. However, to think the holy grail in alignment has been articulated for each and every person, with their own personal physical constraints, is not at all certain.

IMHO, an individualized approach by a skilled player/instructor is the way to go. One person I highly recommend for that is Mark Wilson, while there are others, certainly.

As for the stroke itself, that is a controversial topic, to say the least. Not going there on this post.

Flex

 

[Flex]

We teach it in pool school all the time...there are ONLY two ways to miss a shot...misalignment or mistroke! I've said this many times before. The huge majority of students who come to us with perceived 'aiming' problems, cannot deliver the cuestick accurately and repeatably through the CB. Once we correct those errors, aiming problems almost always go away.

All errors in pool come from one of three sources: Recognition, Alignment, or Delivery. In pool school, we first correct the delivery errors, to help the student create an accurate repeatable process, using their Personal Shooting Template. Then we help them to find the alignment position that best suits their body, and how they "see" the shot properly. Recognition comes after those two things have been corrected, and practiced, until they become an unconscious routine.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, that was a very thoughtful post.

Here's a question for you.

What do you do when someone's perception of where the balls lie in relation to the pocket is off, and when they consistently over cut by a very small amount in one direction, and slightly undercut when shooting in the opposite direction?

How do you view the effect of an incompletely dominant eye as affecting perception of the correct aim line, and how do you "fix" that?

Flex

 

[Flex]

haha, I promise I'd find the tightest table in Australia for you

I don't mean to seem grumpy or condescending, but I've put a lot of thought and testing into aiming v stroking and honestly believe it is a key issue in allowing players to get to an advanced potting accuracy. That is, by actually being able to work out why they missed particular shots and hence focus on improving the true fault.

It's a little irritating when such an idea gets dismissed very readily (I should be used to that ), but I thought about where you're coming from, re the needs of stroke development as a priority for newer players.

I do hope you would consider my opinion from the point of view of players who have a pretty repeatable / accurate stroke.

Colin

Quite a post.

A few months ago Blackjack Sapolis told me that it has happened on occasion that some people in pool halls (who don't know him) have come up to him and offered unsolicited "advice" that his bridge is wrong, or his stroke is off, or whatever.

Heck, if you watch some of Mike Sigel's videos teaching runout 8 ball and 9 ball and 100 ball runs in 14.1, it's possible to detect "flaws" in his stroke, or stance, or maybe he drops his elbow on a force follow shot, whatever.

Anybody want a piece of Sigel?

A pro player, who shall remain nameless, told me that some pool instructors are basically in the business of trying to force people to change their stroke, when their stroke is working just fine.

I'm really interested in the aiming of tougher shots and how to go about doing it consistently...

Flex

 

[Colin Colenso]

If Scott dosen't take that challange, I will...randyg

Randy,
I'd also love to see you take the challenge, but I checked and all flights to Australia are booked for 12 months.

hehe, but seriously. Try potting the yellow ball into the long top corner with the CB sitting under the green spot 5 inches from the bottom rail. ( Not Canadian snooker tables, but real 12 footers with 3.5 inch pockets)

After you've made that shot 10 times, come back and tell me whether your aim was more crucial than your stroke in making that shot.

Videotape yourself making that shot 5 times in a row and I'll video myself making the same shot 10 times in a row on a 4.33 inch pocket sticky cloth (it's in a garage and wet winter here) US table using a broom handle. :thumbup:

Colin

 

[av84fun]

Aiming isn't a science, despite what some system users think. It involves many kinds of estimation:

- estimating where the OB contact point is by aligning it with the pocket, from a distance and an angle

- estimating how to adjust the OB contact point for throw

- estimating where the CB contact point is by imagining where it is on the "dark side" of the CB (this is part 1 of the subject of aiming systems)

- estimating how to align the CB and OB so the two contact points come together (this is part 2 of the subject of aiming systems)

- estimating how to position your head and eyes so all the above things are visualized correctly (this is part 2A of the subject of aiming systems)

This is only a partial list of the estimations required just for aiming (not stroking), and only for shots without sidespin (don't get me started).

Even with a perfect stroke aiming isn't a simple, mechanically repeatable process. It's probably impossible to really know how much of your pocketing problem is related to aim vs. stroke. I didn't vote in this poll, even though I think it's an interesting one, because I just don't know how to tell.
pj
chgo

You should know how to tell. Take a lesson.

And in spite of you fundamental prejudice against systematic aiming, there are SEVERAL systems the are mechanically repeatable with centerball hits and within the KNOWN parameters/limitations of the system.

You seem inclined to dismiss systematic aiming entirely because they have certain limitations. That is short-sighted since it is true that MANY shots fall within the system's boundaries.

Moreover, most (all??) games are eventually won by a single shot whether it is the 8,9 or 10 ball or the 125th ball.

Regarding such shots, shape and therefore, the use of english is often irrelevent. So, when it COUNTS...when you're shooting for the cheese, aiming systems REALLY shine.

It borders on the silly to not learn and USE certain systems that highly respected instructors and a RAPIDLY growing number of top speed players are using.

Jim

 

[frankncali]

Randy,
I'd also love to see you take the challenge, but I checked and all flights to Australia are booked for 12 months.

hehe, but seriously. Try potting the yellow ball into the long top corner with the CB sitting under the green spot 5 inches from the bottom rail. ( Not Canadian snooker tables, but real 12 footers with 3.5 inch pockets)

After you've made that shot 10 times, come back and tell me whether your aim was more crucial than your stroke in making that shot.

Videotape yourself making that shot 5 times in a row and I'll video myself making the same shot 10 times in a row on a 4.33 inch pocket sticky cloth (it's in a garage and wet winter here) US table using a broom handle. :thumbup:

Colin

How about rounding the pockets facings out while shooting with your broom handle!

Also how does one know that their stroke was DEAD Perfect. You are assuming that the only reason for the misses was that the Aim was off.
All factors that normally go into accounts for reasons why we miss still have to be listed and accounted for. Slide, chalk, ball weights different etc.
I just don't think that it can be determined if Aim was the only reason for missing a ball.

Also a true measure would be to take the pocket size of each table and make them the same in relation to the size ball. They also definitely need to have the same setup (facings - snooker or pool)

 

[av84fun]

Scott,

I'd like to see you tackle some real difficult to aim shots on the snooker table and then see how well your stroke knocks them in.

IMHO, the biggest mistake I made in the first 20+ years of pool was assuming I had aimed correctly. And I think that is a mistake that most players will make their entire pool lives.

I did so many thousands of cueing drills in the mirror, with various equipment to ensure straightness, including a laser attached to my cue that I became very familiar with the straightness of my stroke. That did little to improve my aim.
That said, I aimed pretty good, but not as well as pro snooker players. And they too often miss due to incorrect aim on long and difficult shots.

Colin

Right....because aim and stroke are entirely different skills. As you point out, a perfect stroke can be achieved by practicing in a mirror or a laser cue without ever having pocketed a ball and without knowing the first thing about aiming.

The following are truisms.

Perfect strokes, in and of themselves, cannot lead to pocketing balls except by luck.

A faulty stroke can lead to a miss by a player who can aim perfectly every time.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Buster8001]

I think my problems are in my stroke.

Any instructors in the DC area?


Josh

 

[ne14tennis]

My Stroke is pretty good

I personally think it's my aim. My stroke is preety steady, but on long shots my aim is terrible.

When I get to shoot the length of the table and the rock is covered or on a rail......my mind starts telling me "This is not going to have a good ending.

 

[JoeyA]

Joey,
You're one of a few guys I really respect and admire here.

For that reason, I ask you to start paying attention to your aim and start believing in your stroke. Just coz I want to see you making more balls. :smile:

And if that don't work, then blame the table!

Colin

Is it OK to blame my opponent for sharking me?:grin:
JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

Why did you do that? Don't you consider "alignment" part of aiming?

Regards,
Dave

I know where to aim my cue ball to hit the object ball on EVERY SHOT. I just have a problem doing it EVERY TIME.

I guess I consider problems like head position, eye position, body position, stroke hand position and bridge hand placement, alignment problems, not aiming problems. I know where to aim. It is just that I do not always align myself to accomplish that.

Colin mentioned something in an older post of his from 2006 that stings of the truth, at least for me and it has been a problem that continues to plague me and others. http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=26809.

All of us could benefit from that post. I'm sorry I missed it. Some of the newer members of AZ Billiards could do well by clicking on Colin's name and reading many of his older posts. He uses some of the best forum etiquette around and he is as knowledgeable as any of our posters and maybe more so than most.

I have found that by using CTE, I am achieving more accurate alignment than ever and consider alignment my key obstacle to overcome in becoming a better player. The pivoting to the center of the cue ball has enable me to find greater accuracy in my shots as well. Most of the time I am pivoting in the air, although in practice I will experiment with both. I am still on the learning curve but CTE and Pro One has benefited my game. I use less energy focusing on the shot now and feel (know) I can play for longer periods of time although I still tire after several hours of continuous play.
JoeyA

 

[dr_dave]

"aiming" vs. "stoking"

I know where to aim my cue ball to hit the object ball on EVERY SHOT. I just have a problem doing it EVERY TIME.

I guess I consider problems like head position, eye position, body position, stroke hand position and bridge hand placement, alignment problems, not aiming problems. I know where to aim. It is just that I do not always align myself to accomplish that.

Good points. I should have been more clear in the statement of the poll question. I meant "aiming" to include everything before the "stroke." To me, alignment is part of the aiming process. Once the cue is set in the aiming line direction, all that remains is the stroke.

Regards,
Dave

 

[randyg]

Randy,
I'd also love to see you take the challenge, but I checked and all flights to Australia are booked for 12 months.

hehe, but seriously. Try potting the yellow ball into the long top corner with the CB sitting under the green spot 5 inches from the bottom rail. ( Not Canadian snooker tables, but real 12 footers with 3.5 inch pockets)

After you've made that shot 10 times, come back and tell me whether your aim was more crucial than your stroke in making that shot.

Videotape yourself making that shot 5 times in a row and I'll video myself making the same shot 10 times in a row on a 4.33 inch pocket sticky cloth (it's in a garage and wet winter here) US table using a broom handle. :thumbup:

Colin

Darn!!! Then Scott beats me to it also. Not my day. I take your info very seriously!!!!SPF=randyg