Thanks, Dave. I'll check these out. Do you also have any videos comparing squirt amounts between standard and LD shafts?
Roger
aiming and deflection... for a newbie
- Thread starter ddadams
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Thanks, Dave. I'll check these out. Do you also have any videos comparing squirt amounts between standard and LD shafts?
Roger
With most jump shots, the CB is done interacting with the tip before significant interaction occurs between the CB and table slate. Regardless, the slate has no effect on squirt (unless there is a miscue and double hit, in which case the meaning of "squirt" becomes murky). For more info, see:
HSV B.14 - jump shot tip, ball, cloth, slate interaction, with and without a spare piece of cloth
squirt cue elevation effects
squirt cue elevation effects
Regards,
Dave
You're very welcome. The complexities and subtleties of squirt, swerve, and throw certainly help make pool a challenging and humbling game. But if pool were easy, it probably wouldn't be as much fun.
Lots of data comparing a range of cues can be found here:
Several videos illustrating the effects of endmass differences can be found here:
Enjoy,
Dave
I shot firmly at the center of the head rail from the center of the table with a tiny bit of offset from the center of the CB with my Z2 shaft. When I hit the center of the head rail, the CB returned to the foot rail to that side.
I didn't observe the squirt but I did the english imparted to the CB when it hit the head rail.
I didn't observe the squirt but I did the english imparted to the CB when it hit the head rail.
You didn't have to worry about it, CJ, because it wasn't as big a factor as it has been made out to be since the introduction of "low-deflection" shafts. Swerve wasn't a factor because you, and all other good players, knew how to curve (swerve) the cue ball by elevating the butt end of the cue and applying english. No fancy shaft needed. But here's the part where I'm sure to catch some flak: I believe that squirt, along with curve, is almost non-existent whenever the cue ball is struck above the horizontal center line with a level cue, even when english is applied. And isn't a rolling cue ball used most often when propelling it around the table?
The marketing of low-deflection shafts is what put, and keeps, worry in players' minds. Tests hitting the cue ball with english right on the horizontal center line (which is the exact point where squirt is maximized) have shown that some shafts do indeed produce less squirt than others. However, no shaft totally eliminates squirt, and, as I've already stated, squirt and swerve are essentially non-factors when you stay above the horizontal center line, regardless of what kind of shaft you use.
Roger
squirt and swerve are essentially non-factors when you stay above the horizontal
Yes, indeed, the whole key is the angle of the cue at address....there's a lot of misinformation concerning this and it's caused a lot of "squirts" :wink:
Yes, indeed, the whole key is the angle of the cue at address....there's a lot of misinformation concerning this and it's caused a lot of "squirts" :wink:
This is news to me. Swerve tends to be accentuated with above center hits, which can mask squirt - is that what you're referring to?
pj
chgo
How many of you shoot using a cb speed of 3 to 8 mph range only?
A cb speed of 3 mph is 4.4 ft per second or 52.8 inches per second.
A cb speed of 8 mph is 11.7 ft per second or 140.8 inches per second.
The test results would have been of more value if the range of speeds were closer to what is used in normal everyday play.
This is also why I believe if you are concerning yourself with squirt and deflection you are hitting to hard.
Also, adding weight at various location on the shaft is not changing the end mass. The only way to change the weight of the end mass of a shaft is to change to weight at the end of the shaft on not at various location along the shaft.
Not a good thing to just accept test results as proof without verify that there is no weaknesses in the testing methodology. That the parameters used accurately reflect the conditions to be used in. In this case the parameters 3-8 mph are outside what would be used for the majority of speeds to make shots and where the weight to the shaft.
So next time your are playing, ask yourself if you are hitting at 3mph or above most the time or somewhere way below 3 mph.
A cb speed of 3 mph is 4.4 ft per second or 52.8 inches per second.
A cb speed of 8 mph is 11.7 ft per second or 140.8 inches per second.
The test results would have been of more value if the range of speeds were closer to what is used in normal everyday play.
This is also why I believe if you are concerning yourself with squirt and deflection you are hitting to hard.
Also, adding weight at various location on the shaft is not changing the end mass. The only way to change the weight of the end mass of a shaft is to change to weight at the end of the shaft on not at various location along the shaft.
Not a good thing to just accept test results as proof without verify that there is no weaknesses in the testing methodology. That the parameters used accurately reflect the conditions to be used in. In this case the parameters 3-8 mph are outside what would be used for the majority of speeds to make shots and where the weight to the shaft.
So next time your are playing, ask yourself if you are hitting at 3mph or above most the time or somewhere way below 3 mph.
As CJ said, the whole key is the angle of the cue at address. If you elevate the back end of the cue for a downward hit with english, then yes, swerve will be accentuated when hitting above center (that's just how a curve shot works). But, when you keep the cue level, you really don't have to worry about swerve (curve). And there may be only the slightest amount of squirt. It's when you drop the tip down to the horizontal center line that squirt becomes a serious consideration, while on that same shot with a level cue, curve is still essentially a non-factor.
Roger
With more speed, there is less swerve so less of the squirt is negated. However, with a near-level cue, even at the softest speeds, the amount of swerve is usually not enough to cancel squirt completely. Here is a crude demo of this effect:
With slower rolling-CB shots, front-hand English (FHE) (instead of back-hand English) is often recommended to negate the combined effects of squirt and swerve. Give it a try.
For more information on the effects of speed on squirt and swerve, see:
Numerous tests (and theory) have shown conclusively that squirt does not change with speed. What does change with speed is swerve (CB curve). The amount of swerve also depends on cue elevation and ball/cloth conditions. With softer shots, swerve happens almost immediately, giving the appearing that there is less squirt, but this is not the case.
Regards,
Dave
In my experience swerve is accentuated when hitting above center even with a level-as-possible cue - and one reason I think so is that squirt seems to be less. Since there's no reason for squirt to be less I assume that swerve has increased. This is reinforced by certain above-center shots with extreme swerve, like sidespin shots on a rail-frozen CB.
pj
chgo
Swerve happens sooner with follow shots than with swerve shots, so the CB does not swing out as much, making it appear there is less squirt (which is not the case) or more swerve (which really isn't the case either) ... the swerve just occurs earlier.
For more info, see:
"Squirt - Part VIII: squerve effects" (BD, March, 2008)
Actually, swerve can be a little less with follow shots because the cue can be more level than with draw shots. For more info, see:
Regards,
Dave
And my own experience has been consistent with the tests demonstrated by Dr. Dave here http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-7.htm
Roger
What you are saying in this post seems to contradict what you have said in this video, http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-7.htm
Roger
Mr. Roger,
I have been playing with english for 46 yrs. & I agree with you. Right or left high rolling english does not impart squirt & only a bit of swerve depending on the speed. Basically not enough to worry about & one will fairly quickly subconsciously adapt for what bit is there. I shoot with a very level cue but if as you said I want to move the ball I can elevate it & hit that mini masse with control. I for one appreciate you relaying your experience. I hope you continue to do so as often as you can.
Sincerely,
Rick
I know. He was demonstrating that english alone does not cause swerve. But before he hit the ball, he clearly said, "Using an aboive center hit..."
Roger
Dave:
I hope it doesn't appear that I'm ragging on you (you know I wouldn't do that as I highly respect the great efforts you have put into this wonderful game), but for clarity's sake, I would like to ask one more question.
In post #38 you said, "Squirt does not depend on speed..." However, in this video, http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-32.htm I know you are demonstrating the effects of end-mass on squirt, but in the first shot where you show a non-squirt shot by hitting on the vertical center-line, and most likely above the horizontal center-line as well, you hit the ball at a relatively slow speed. But when you go to demonstrate the shots involving squirt, you blast the balls. If squirt does not depend on speed, why do you have to hit them so hard to demonstrate squirt? (I also think you were hitting on the horizontal center-line for maximum effect.)
Roger
I hope it doesn't appear that I'm ragging on you (you know I wouldn't do that as I highly respect the great efforts you have put into this wonderful game), but for clarity's sake, I would like to ask one more question.
In post #38 you said, "Squirt does not depend on speed..." However, in this video, http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-32.htm I know you are demonstrating the effects of end-mass on squirt, but in the first shot where you show a non-squirt shot by hitting on the vertical center-line, and most likely above the horizontal center-line as well, you hit the ball at a relatively slow speed. But when you go to demonstrate the shots involving squirt, you blast the balls. If squirt does not depend on speed, why do you have to hit them so hard to demonstrate squirt? (I also think you were hitting on the horizontal center-line for maximum effect.)
Roger
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Thank you for that, Rick, but my belief differs slightly from yours. I lean toward the opposite of what you're saying: I believe that high rolling english does not impart swerve, and only a bit of squirt depending on the speed.
Roger
"squirt/deflection/veer" is getting "bad name" ....we always used it to our advantage
I know, the main difference is "squirt/deflection/veer" is getting "bad name" ....we always used it to our advantage, and now it's being condemned as some evil like force or something.....it (deflection) actually helps create zones.
I know, the main difference is "squirt/deflection/veer" is getting "bad name" ....we always used it to our advantage, and now it's being condemned as some evil like force or something.....it (deflection) actually helps create zones.