Aiming by feel: The rest of the story

SpiderWebComm said:
CTE is not aiming a half ball and then adjusting with feel, btw. I don't wanna start another CTE back-and-forth... I'm burnt out on them. In my opinion, the only feel associated with CTE is perceiving where the CTE line is. Once you have that down, there's no feel involved. I hope to meet you someday so we can clear this up once and for all. :)
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Feel: the part of aiming that can't be clearly described.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Feel: the part of aiming that can't be clearly described.

pj
chgo
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I used the word perceived because the CTE line can be described and demonstrated perfectly. Whether or not your eyes see it, is another story. Center ball can be perceived incorrectly, although described and demonstrated perfectly.

Good morning, Pat. Rise and shine to the aiming thread.
 
I agree that feel is the part of the aim that we do not describe. With sufficient thought from enough people we might be able to find a common method that is used by many good players. Introspection is a time honored technique for learning new things. An analysis of errors or mistakes is also useful for advancing our state of knowledge.

In the last few days I have been attempting to study what the subconscious uses. This can be done by close observation and then attempting to verbalize after the shot.

One of the things I noticed is that attempting to visualize the OB actually moving down the line to the pocket helps the mind determine the contact spot on the OB. The construction of OB motion could be a key ingredient for establishing the contact point.

It is interesting to note that I can walk to the table and see from an off angle and while on the other side of the table that a ball cannot be made but that the exact line from behind the CB to the location of the contact point is not easily seen. In the case of a shot that will not go it is edge detection. For a line of travel it is the construction of an imaginary point to achieve a line of travel. Edge detection is easier.

During the shooting process, the mind also seems to look at the line of travel for the OB and the line of travel for the CB. It appears to use the intersection of these two lines to establish the contact point.

It also appears that there is a substantial gain when the quiet eye technique is used. The shooting is "better" when the eye attempts to stay focused on the contact point while the arm strokes. Perhaps conscious attention needs to be placed on the point of focus while stroking needs to be primarily under subconscious control.

When a shot is missed it appears that stroking is more often the problem when emotions are involved. I can often see immediately after hitting the CB that a shot will not go because of the stroke. That is, I can see that I am going to hit the wrong place. This means I knew where the there right place was but failed in execution. It is more often (?) a stroking problem.

On the other hand, there are times (perhaps 10%) when I miss and I do not know why I missed. This appears to be a perceptual problem or poor estimation of the contact point.

From this I can conclude that most shots are missed due to poor stroke but that some low percentage are missed because of incorrect line construction.
 
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I used the word perceived because the CTE line can be described and demonstrated perfectly.
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The CTE line isn't all there is to "CTE" aiming, unless you're saying every shot is a 30-degree cut. Give us a clear formulaic description (steps any of us can duplicate simply from your description) of how you get from CTE (halfball aim) to, say, a 20-degree cut and I might agree you're not doing it by feel.

You can clearly describe how to line up CTE (aim center of CB at edge of OB), but you apparently can't do that for anything that comes after. "I put my bridge hand somewhere and pivot somehow" or "watch me while I pivot on video" isn't the kind of clear description I'm talking about.

All we know so far about the CTE system is that you start with a halfball alignment and adjust somehow from there. It's the "somehow" part that apparently involves feel.

pj
chgo

P.S. Just to be clear (for those who haven't heard this the last 100 times I've said it), I'm not saying there's something wrong with the system - I'm just saying nobody has said anything yet that shows it's a completely non-feel system.


P.P.S. for JoeW: I hope this doesn't seem to you like I'm hijacking your thread to continue a sidebar discussion about CTE aiming. I think the CTE system is a good example that can help highlight the difference between "systematic" and "feel" aiming - and show how people's understanding of the terms differ.
 
Please Give Us A Simple Explanation Of Cte!!!!

Amen!!! I too am frustrated that I have read hundreds of postings regarding CTE/Pro-One, and I have spoken to Stan on the phone, and I still don't know how the system is supposed to work without adjusting alignment and/or bridge point and/or pivot amount or distance by "feel." I don't think it is too much to ask to get a simple description of the technique. Any reasonable and usable aiming system or method should be able to be described and/or illustrated in simple terms. Could somebody please give a straightforward explanation without starting a flaming debate void of content and full of personal attacks? We've seen far too many of those lately.

Regards,
Dave

Patrick Johnson said:
The CTE line isn't all there is to "CTE" aiming, unless you're saying every shot is a 30-degree cut. Give us a clear formulaic description (steps any of us can duplicate simply from your description) of how you get from CTE (halfball aim) to, say, a 20-degree cut and I might agree you're not doing it by feel.

You can clearly describe how to line up CTE (aim center of CB at edge of OB), but you apparently can't do that for anything that comes after. "I put my bridge hand somewhere and pivot somehow" or "watch me while I pivot on video" isn't the kind of clear description I'm talking about.

All we know so far about the CTE system is that you start with a halfball alignment and adjust somehow from there. It's the "somehow" part that apparently involves feel.

pj
chgo

P.S. Just to be clear (for those who haven't heard this the last 100 times I've said it), I'm not saying there's something wrong with the system - I'm just saying nobody has said anything yet that shows it's a completely non-feel system.


P.P.S. for JoeW: I hope this doesn't seem to you like I'm hijacking your thread to continue a sidebar discussion about CTE aiming. I think the CTE system is a good example that can help highlight the difference between "systematic" and "feel" aiming - and show how people's understanding of the terms differ.
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I mentioned earlier - I'm not making this an aiming war. I'd venture to say I'm an expert with CTE and I have enough personal assessment to know what's up. Is there feel involved, sure, but minimally. Everything in pool has SOME feel associated with it because of sighting perception. Far less than anything else known. Why don't I post an encyclopedia on here on the hows/why's?

Because I spent the last year of my life finding the good info, traveling to get it, and mastering it every day since I learned it. It's not my place to educate the world. I don't have a billiard-ed website, so for me, I don't care if no one else learns the specifics. The info is out there and everyone wants a golden ticket to get it without the work. Sorry for hijacking the thread.. i was just clarifying an earlier post that CTE was a half ball hit and feel from there, which those who know what up, know is not true. My last post-- fight it out among yourselves.
 
please offer at least a brief description for a simple example

SpiderWebComm said:
I mentioned earlier - I'm not making this an aiming war. I'd venture to say I'm an expert with CTE and I have enough personal assessment to know what's up. Is there feel involved, sure, but minimally. Everything in pool has SOME feel associated with it because of sighting perception. Far less than anything else known. Why don't I post an encyclopedia on here on the hows/why's?

Because I spent the last year of my life finding the good info, traveling to get it, and mastering it every day since I learned it. It's not my place to educate the world. I don't have a billiard-ed website, so for me, I don't care if no one else learns the specifics. The info is out there and everyone wants a golden ticket to get it without the work. Sorry for hijacking the thread.. i was just clarifying an earlier post that CTE was a half ball hit and feel from there, which those who know what up, know is not true. My last post-- fight it out among yourselves.
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David,

Could you please share at least a brief description (not an encyclopedia) of how alignment, bridge placement, pivoting, or whatever else you do with CTE is different for 25-degree cut vs. a 30-degree cut vs. a 35 degree cut (all fairly close to a 1/2-ball hit)? Assume the OB is in the same place for each shot. Only the CB placement is different (slightly) among the three shots. Also assume the distance to the pocket is large and the pockets are "tight, " so precision and accuracy are required.

I know you wrote that you don't care if people know or not, but I am asking nicely, and I know many people will appreciate it. I will certainly appreciate it. Please share at least a few simple sentences.

Regards,
Dave
 
JimS said:
I'm confused about something.

I attempt to aim as precisely as I can while I'm standing but when I get down on the shot I often see that it needs just a little tweaking.

I've read that if the aim needs to be changed that the shooter should get up and aim again. NO tweaking?

I"m not sure I understand what is meant by "don't change the aim once you're down", or... "if the aim's not right I get up". Does that mean no tweaking at all? It's either on or off and you have to get up?
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When I say it, that's what I mean. No horizontal tweaking. I try to never allow time for it when practicing. Probably only really possible for some pro level players. Vertical alignment is made when you get down and then focus on that spot while concentrating on the speed of your stroke.

Most people can't do this, because they don't know where they are aiming their tip, especially when using english.
 
Apparently CTE is a place to aim and therefore gives the eye a place to begin to calculate. Perhaps the subconscious then determines how far off from a half ball hit a particular shot is likely to be. With experience, one gets better at these subconscious estimates and hence enhances the feel for the shot.

Unknown Pro's statement about no lateral arm movement is quite interesting. I can understand how the subconscious process could establish a routine in which the swing arm is always in one position relative to the body for a high degree of consistency. That is the swing arm would always act in exactly the same way.

I have read in the past, and I do use, another related idea. Someone, I do not remember who, said that one should shift their butt (their ass) to realign the cue stick for a particular line. If this idea is connected to Unknown's statement then minor shifts in alignment, which could be due to perceptual error while standing, could be made with the stance not the arm. This is an intriguing idea and suggests that small incremental movements of one's butt may be the way the subconscious adjusts for a shot. This leads to the conclusion that the developing player might want to consider developing a pattern in which the swing arm is always the same.

I know that I use both methods, lateral arm movement and butt movement. UnknownPro implies that arm movement should not be used. That is worth experimenting with as the player may be able to develop a highly consistent stroke following his idea.

Thank you Unknown Pro for insight into developing consistency. I understand what you are saying when you say that you never adjust your lateral swing arm. However, it is possible that you may use other techniques to make adjustments of which you are not aware.
 
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still in search of CTE resolutioin

JoeW said:
Apparently CTE is a place to aim and therefore gives the eye a place to begin to calculate. Perhaps the subconscious then determines how far off from a half ball hit a particular shot is likely to be. With experience, one gets better at these subconscious estimates and hence enhances the feel for the shot.
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That's what I thought CTE was at first also, but the CTE followers claim it is much more than this. We just haven't heard a straightforward and clear description of what the "much more" is yet.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Dr. Joe, I'm sorry I'm contributing to the hijacking of the thread, but CTE seems to come up any time aiming is discussed, and it still isn't clear what CTE is. I hope this time we will finally get some clear answers to some simple questions, without personal attacks and defensive reactions (from either "side").
 
Personally I aim purely by sense of smell. This probably explains why my game stinks so bad. ;-)
 
JoeW said:
Apparently CTE is a place to aim and therefore gives the eye a place to begin to calculate. Perhaps the subconscious then determines how far off from a half ball hit a particular shot is likely to be. With experience, one gets better at these subconscious estimates and hence enhances the feel for the shot.

Unknown Pro's statement about no lateral arm movement is quite interesting. I can understand how the subconscious process could establish a routine in which the swing arm is always in one position relative to the body for a high degree of consistency. That is the swing arm would always act in exactly the same way.

I have read in the past, and I do use, another related idea. Someone, I do not remember who, said that one should shift their butt (their ass) to realign the cue stick for a particular line. If this idea is connected to Unknown's statement then minor shifts in alignment, which could be due to perceptual error while standing, could be made with the stance not the arm. This is an intriguing idea and suggests that small incremental movements of one's butt may be the way the subconscious adjusts for a shot. This leads to the conclusion that the developing player might want to consider developing a pattern in which the swing arm is always the same.

I know that I use both methods, lateral arm movement and butt movement. UnknownPro implies that arm movement should not be used. That is worth experimenting with as the player may be able to develop a highly consistent stroke following his idea.

Thank you Unknown Pro for insight into developing consistency. I understand what you are saying when you say that you never adjust your lateral swing arm. However, it is possible that you may use other techniques to make adjustments of which you are not aware.
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For sure I will sometimes NEED to adjust my stance, you will sometimes get down in the wrong place. When practicing at a fast tempo, I don't allow myself to adjust, just miss the ball and re-rack. When "grinding" at a slow tempo pressuring yourself to make every ball, you should get back up. That's not the way I prefer to play or practice. Adjusting, or getting back up will not teach you to do it right the first time. Missing and reracking will teach you to pay more attention and come up with an exact line of aim that works with your english before getting down.

Limiting yourself to one practice stroke and hit will limit your adjustment time and make you focus on getting in the right place the first time. But again, this is for very high level players that actually aim their tip on all shots, even when using english. Very few and far between.
 
Dr. Dave-

I'm not throwing personal attacks or anything. I re-read my last post and I think my tone wasn't what I intended. I would love to educate the planet on this stuff, I just question if it's my place.

The answer to your question is the setup for each of the angles your described is the same. Once the CTE line is determined and you set your body/cue, it is no longer important. Very rare is the CTE line and the aiming/shooting line the same - unless you actually need a half-ball hit to make the ball.

There's a LOT to CTE. At a basic level, I can describe it in a few sentences. At the highest level, it would take me pages to type everything.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Why don't I post an encyclopedia on here on the hows/why's?

Because I spent the last year of my life finding the good info, traveling to get it, and mastering it every day since I learned it. .
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One thing I really admire about you Dave is your willingness to learn. I'm very impressed that you drove 10 hours to take a lesson from Joe Tucker. That's dedication to improvement!
 
Ultimate feel

I just finished running a few racks using UnknownPro's one stroke shooting. It may be the ultimate feel technique. After the first two racks, which were uncomfortable, my ball pocket percentage nearly doubled. Here is why.

If you know you only get one stroke you really concentrate on the aim lines while standing up. As you bend over all you are watching is the aim lines. There is no time to think about the stroke so all you can do is check to be sure your tip is where it should be. One stroke lets you verify the tip placement and then it is all over.

There is no time to think about the stroke. All of your attention is on the contact point. In this way the subconscious is in control of the stroke. The resulting position was much better than when I use my usual approach.

All I can say is give it a try for a few racks and you may be as amazed as I was at how well you do and how easy it is to turn the shot makng over to the subconscious. A great technique. Now I have to figure out how to use this in a match. :cool:

I know there is a part of me that will want more control in a critical situation but it may be that more conscious control leads to more misses -- Hmmmmm

I can see from the brief description given by UnknownPro that he has taught me to aim, really aim, while I am standing up. This was great advice.
 
I haven't done my practicing using "one stroke"... but I will. I HAVE been turning the shooting over to the subconscious by focusing, or gazing, very intensly, on the "line" or the angle from the ob to the target and then getting down and shooting with NO correction allowed.

Sometimes it goes unbelieveably well and, like Joe above, I make shots over and over that I'm not really supposed to make. Other times I'm back to average but I believe that it's just because my FOCUS wanes, my concentration on the line becomes weak. Or... Maybe there are some angles I just don't know yet.

While practicing thusly I never think about ghost balls or contact points. While standing, I see the line, I get down and I let my body shoot the shot. That's all. There are some shots where I just don't see the line very clearly but that will come.

I've been doing stroke training every day for several years now (with periods of abstinence :) ) and this is what I've been waiting for and practicing for. I've found the aiming "system" that my first teacher, Jeff Carter, talked about and it will work and now I have the stroke ready to make it work. I asked Jeff how he aimed and he said he just sees the angles. Now I too see the angle. But it only becomes clear when I look carefully.

I've found that I see the line best when I sort of "gaze" at the shot, taking in the ob and the target in one view of the table... as opposed to looking or focusing on one object or another.

I don't think I ever understood what aiming while up really meant. Years ago, back on the CCB, CC and Rod and Scott Lee and several others told me that most if not all of the aiming was done while standing but I just couldn't make myself believe it. It just didn't seem right. I couldn't see the line then. I tried like hell but it's just now becoming clear what they were all talking about. It's quite a revelation.

I DO believe that I"ve discoverd something that I have faith will work if I keep it up and the posts from Joe and especially unknownpro, as well as Jeff's words from years back, have me convinced that I'm on the right track.

It just "feels" right. :groucho:
 
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unknownpro said:
this is for very high level players that actually aim their tip on all shots, even when using english. Very few and far between.
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Would you explain what you mean by "aim their tip" on all shots, even when using english. Aim the tip at?? Or do you mean that they pay attention to the tip contact point on the ob while standing and get down that way? Or?

I really appreciate your help here. Jim
 
One-stroking:
A great technique. Now I have to figure out how to use this in a match.
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I often practice this way (and have even described it here on AZB). It forces me to get my stance and alignment perfect so that one stroke is on target.

The way to use it during play is to imagine you're going to one-stroke the shot as you get into your stance and align your stick for the shot. Take the extra few seconds you start your practice strokes that it takes to do it. Just imagining I'm going to one-stroke the shot has a tremendous effect on my attention to stance and alignment.

pj
chgo
 
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