aiming poll

[unknownpro]

Finally, while Bob is, of course, correct that NO system can work for ALL shots of any given angle due to the operation of throw, curve, hopping, squirt etc. I my view a system that works BECAUSE IT IS GEOMETRICALLY CORRECT Iis an important and fundamental BASELINE from which one would adjust for extrinsic factors...and that adjustment is where I agree that "feel" (or rote memory) comes into play.

Throw, curve, hopping and squirt. Throw is accounted for by the placement of the ghostball - before you get down on the shot. Curve is a variable to be eliminated if at all possible by your stroke and speed and choice of shot and choice of english. Hopping doesn't affect anything unless the hop is at object ball contact, and that should of course be avoided also. Controlled deflection or squirt is your friend and a natural part of using english and is the only reason you need any system in the first place.

Except for center ball hits (except for the stun influence that Bob just mentioned and that I would love to learn about) No aiming system can possibly work as Bob suggests.

THEN, if you want to progress beyond the banger stage, you MUST learn to adjust for collision-related factors and there is NO system that can pin that sort of adjustment down.

It is the ability to execute those adjustments with great consistency that makes champions...that and the ability to remain reasonably sober for the majority of the match!!

(-:

All these adjustments are made to the ghostball position from knowledge. So a champion like Reyes, I believe is actually making far fewer adjustments to his aim than everyone else, and thus plays much more consistently.

unknownpro

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The ghostball is just as real as the object ball.

Except, of course, that the object ball exists outside your mind.

It touches the object ball, and is exactly the same size. Can't you see it?

I can imagine it, just like you. Saying it's "real" doesn't make it so.

If not, then how do you ever get the cueball throught that spot?

By visualizating (estimating) it, just like you do.

...I basically always shoot to graze the outside edge when using english except on shots you can't keep from curving. And I avoid those shots if at all possible.

Almost every sidespin shot curves; you can't prevent it entirely. The fact that you think otherwise is another example of things happening during a shot that you don't "see" and have to compensate for by estimation. The fact that you're not even aware of it illustrates that you estimate by feel.

Didn't you say yourself that there is only one line for your cue to make the same shot with the same speed and english? Sounds exact to me.

It is exact (or nearly so), but that doesn't mean you can see it. If you can't see it, you have to estimate its position. It's like shooting free throws at an invisible basketball hoop - first you have to visualize (estimate) the position of the hoop, then you have to visualize/estimate the precise arc of your shot needed to hit it, and then you have to visualize/estimate the precise amount of force and initial trajectory to send the ball on that arc, etc. It's just like estimating the target, arc and stroke of a sidespin shot in pool. You need to hit a nearly exact spot to make both shots, but you don't have an exact target, alignment or stroke to see, so you have to estimate both where the target is and how to hit it. The fact that you've gotten good at these estimations doesn't mean you've eliminated or even reduced them. They're still estimations.

Edit: By the way, estimating doesn't mean guessing.

pj
chgo

 

[av84fun]

unknownpro...I think you are mixing your metaphors. Adjusting the ghostball to, for example, compensate for X amount of throw on a soft shot with english and Y amount for a medium shot with english is not a "system."

It is a "technique" that can ONLY be learned by rote practice and absorbed so it becomes just what Bob describes as "feel.

In addition, the stroke/collision related factors change...sometimes significantly, based on ball polish (or lack thereof) cloth conditions etc. and there is no "system" that can take all those variables into account.

Only experience that becomes "instinct" or "feel" can make those adjustments swuccessfully.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Jason Robichaud]

I always aim at the same spot... siding or not. Some shots I will adjust, like when a ball won't go and you throw it in... I will probably start missing them now after reading some of these post.

 

[Jaden]

I always aim at the same spot... siding or not. Some shots I will adjust, like when a ball won't go and you throw it in... I will probably start missing them now after reading some of these post.

I always aim at the pocket myself. Usually center pocket.

But this poll is kinda stupid, because these aren't aiming systems, they're compensation for the inherent problems with using english and if you haven't tried backhand english then you should. I don't know how many times I've told the story of Efren coming to town and playing his amazing self and when I asked him what he was doing, he explained to me, (through his friend Alex) that he was using what I later found out was BHE. I didn't even try it for three years after that because I thought he was crazy and must be adjusting automatically as he aimed, but I later foudn out that a friend who was a strong A player(Chip Klein), also used it and ever since I started using it I haven't gone back. It is the be all end all system for adjusting for side spin.

There are some shots that require other adjustment but for an average speed shot BHE is the only way to go.

I would be interested to see what level of players chose BHE in the POLL.

Aiming systems on the other hand should be a poll asking ghost ball, feel, numbered systems, parallel lines, etc. Aiming has nothing to do with adjusting for english.

 

[pdcue]

If this is the question you mean...



...then the answer is: Because whatever you think should be considered for paralleling (sidespin, follow/draw, speed, distance, etc.), should also be considered for pivoting or you're not comparing apples with apples.

The aim adjustment you get by pivoting is not different from the aim adjustment you get by paralleling just because you could use hard follow with pivoting and soft stun with paralleling. They're only different if they produce different aim adjustments when adjusting for the same combination of sidespin, follow/draw, speed, distance, etc.

So when I say all aim adjustment methods produce exactly the same cue position, I mean in order to adjust correctly for exactly the same kind of spin, speed, distance, etc. Of course you need different cue positions for different kinds of spin, speed, distance, etc., but then you're not comparing different aim adjustment methods - you're comparing the different effects of different kinds of spin, speed, distance, etc.

I thought this was obvious.

pj
chgo

"I thought this was obvious"
and therein lies the problem...

All that is obvious is you don't grasp vectors,<nor levers, IIRC>
and, you need to look up the definition of visualization and write
it one thousand times.

Please learn one thing if you never learn another:
just because you can't do, or understand something, doesn't
mean nobody can.

Perhaps then you will stop hijacking threads to promote
obsfucation. One can only hope...

Dale<who is convinced that visualizing a small spot is more
accurate than visualizing a ball>

 

[Patrick Johnson]

All that is obvious is you don't grasp vectors,<nor levers, IIRC>
and, you need to look up the definition of visualization and write
it one thousand times.

What's obvious to me is that you're not trying to communicate with me, but to compete. I don't know for what prize or even on what topic - do you?

How about this? You win. Congratulations.

pj
chgo

 

[Billy_Bob]

I have a Predator cue with a 314 shaft and use front hand english.

But if I am using a regular cue (house cue), then I use backhand english.

Backhand english is aiming dead center, then moving your back hand slightly left or right to apply as much english as you want (while keeping front hand still), then shoot. Cue ball goes to same spot as a dead center hit. Front hand is on "pivot point" of cue which can be different for different cues. About 10 inches back with a regular cue. This is hard to use if the cue ball is near a rail as it is difficult to make a 10 inch bridge. (Why I bought a Predator and use front hand english.)

Front hand english is aiming dead center, then moving front hand left/right slightly for amount of english you want, then shoot. Cue ball goes to same spot as a dead center hit.

 

[av84fun]

I always aim at the pocket myself. Usually center pocket.


Aiming has nothing to do with adjusting for english.

Of course it does!! What do you adjust FROM when adjusting for english?

Obviously, you adjust from the AIM you would have used without the english.

And once you have adjusted you are now AIMING at a different point.

And I don't agree that this poll is "stupid" as you so impolitely suggest. In fact, it has created a great deal of interesting comments and insights.

Regards,
Jim

 

[acedotcom]

I find that even the simplest aiming system is difficult to put into words. I've heard the one I use called the "Line" system and that's pretty accurate. Visualize a line going thru the ob to the target. Now, visualize a parallel line going thru the cb. Deliver the cb to the ob so that the lines join pointing toward the target.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I find that even the simplest aiming system is difficult to put into words. I've heard the one I use called the "Line" system and that's pretty accurate. Visualize a line going thru the ob to the target. Now, visualize a parallel line going thru the cb. Deliver the cb to the ob so that the lines join pointing toward the target.

That would be one of the systems shown in Mosconi's and Byrne's books. Diagrams from both books appear in the article http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-06.pdf

Joe Tucker's system is similar to that system.

 

[Jaden]

Of course it does!! What do you adjust FROM when adjusting for english?

Obviously, you adjust from the AIM you would have used without the english.

And once you have adjusted you are now AIMING at a different point.

And I don't agree that this poll is "stupid" as you so impolitely suggest. In fact, it has created a great deal of interesting comments and insights.

Regards,
Jim

I didn't say that the poll is stupid I said that the way it is worded is stupid because this isn't a poll about aiming systems, it is a poll about adjusting for deflection and squirt when using english systems.

determining where to aim has little to do with adjusting for swuit and defelction and the numeorus other adjustments that can be necesary to get the shape that you want, it's something that comes after aiming regardless of how you aim, the only thing in this poll that is also applicable to aiming is aiming by feel.

So in reposte to your statement, I didn't say it was a stupid poll only that naming it aiming is stupid.

 

[HollyWood]

The B. E.

advanced technics rail systems, feel from practice,rthyum. Read the Billiards Encyclopedia " Voices from the Past" mark (picture from wallet)

 

[av84fun]

I didn't say that the poll is stupid I said that the way it is worded is stupid because this isn't a poll about aiming systems, it is a poll about adjusting for deflection and squirt when using english systems.

determining where to aim has little to do with adjusting for swuit and defelction and the numeorus other adjustments that can be necesary to get the shape that you want, it's something that comes after aiming regardless of how you aim, the only thing in this poll that is also applicable to aiming is aiming by feel.

So in reposte to your statement, I didn't say it was a stupid poll only that naming it aiming is stupid.

With respect, and I don't mean to start anything with you...but this is what you posted so, let's just let it speak for itself.

"But this poll is kinda stupid, because these aren't aiming systems, they're compensation for the inherent problems with using english and if you haven't tried backhand english then you should."

Regards,
Jim

 

[unknownpro]

unknownpro...I think you are mixing your metaphors. Adjusting the ghostball to, for example, compensate for X amount of throw on a soft shot with english and Y amount for a medium shot with english is not a "system."

It is a "technique" that can ONLY be learned by rote practice and absorbed so it becomes just what Bob describes as "feel.

In addition, the stroke/collision related factors change...sometimes significantly, based on ball polish (or lack thereof) cloth conditions etc. and there is no "system" that can take all those variables into account.

Only experience that becomes "instinct" or "feel" can make those adjustments swuccessfully.

Regards,
Jim

You are correct, adjusting the ghostball is not a system. That's why I've said that the only "system" you need for aiming is for using english. If you are not using english you shoot through the center of the ghostball. Adjustement of the ghostball, whether using english or not, comes through knowledge and is not a system or a technique or feel.

If you use english you must shoot to a point that is not in the center of the ghostball unless you intend to curve the cueball. So the only "system" I use is for deciding where to aim with english to deliver the cueball throught the ghostball position.

unknownpro

 

[unknownpro]

Except, of course, that the object ball exists outside your mind.

So does the ghostball.

I can imagine it, just like you. Saying it's "real" doesn't make it so.

Maybe not, but it was real before I said it.

By visualizating (estimating) it, just like you do.

So you can see it?

Almost every sidespin shot curves; you can't prevent it entirely. The fact that you think otherwise is another example of things happening during a shot that you don't "see" and have to compensate for by estimation. The fact that you're not even aware of it illustrates that you estimate by feel.

You said almost, lol, so you already admitted it's possible before you said I just can't see it and am not aware of it. Regardless, even if it's not possible to eliminate it entirely, reducing it to a negligable amount is sufficient.

All masse shots curve by definition. But even a masse shot can be forced on a path that is straight or very nearly straight for some distance before the curve catches significantly. The spot where it catches can be after object ball impact so that the cueball curves after contact. In this case the curve can be insignificant to pocketing the object ball, even on a masse stroke.

It is exact (or nearly so), but that doesn't mean you can see it. If you can't see it, you have to estimate its position. It's like shooting free throws at an invisible basketball hoop - first you have to visualize (estimate) the position of the hoop, then you have to visualize/estimate the precise arc of your shot needed to hit it, and then you have to visualize/estimate the precise amount of force and initial trajectory to send the ball on that arc, etc. It's just like estimating the target, arc and stroke of a sidespin shot in pool. You need to hit a nearly exact spot to make both shots, but you don't have an exact target, alignment or stroke to see, so you have to estimate both where the target is and how to hit it. The fact that you've gotten good at these estimations doesn't mean you've eliminated or even reduced them. They're still estimations.

Edit: By the way, estimating doesn't mean guessing.

pj
chgo

A basketball free throw is a masse shot that always curves at a constant accelleration of 9.8m/s squared, and since the rim is taller than most people it cannot be made without using that curve. So you are comparing an open pool shot to the free throw when the free throw can only compare in pool to a full reverse masse around a blocking ball.

Elevate yourself above the rim and you can reduce the curve to insignificance and fire the basketball straight into the rim. In this case you could use center ball and aim straight through the rim, or you can spin the ball. In each case your hand must go to a different spot. Since your hand moves in an arc, this is still not very applicable to a pool shot using a straight cue and a straight stroke, imo.

A pool shot will never curve at any constant accelleration throughout the shot. Knowing when to push the curve out beyond the object ball contact or pull it back to the tip impact zone can make you a much better player, imo.

unknownpro

 

[unknownpro]

I always aim at the pocket myself. Usually center pocket.

But this poll is kinda stupid, because these aren't aiming systems, they're compensation for the inherent problems with using english and if you haven't tried backhand english then you should. I don't know how many times I've told the story of Efren coming to town and playing his amazing self and when I asked him what he was doing, he explained to me, (through his friend Alex) that he was using what I later found out was BHE. I didn't even try it for three years after that because I thought he was crazy and must be adjusting automatically as he aimed, but I later foudn out that a friend who was a strong A player(Chip Klein), also used it and ever since I started using it I haven't gone back. It is the be all end all system for adjusting for side spin.

There are some shots that require other adjustment but for an average speed shot BHE is the only way to go.

I would be interested to see what level of players chose BHE in the POLL.

Aiming systems on the other hand should be a poll asking ghost ball, feel, numbered systems, parallel lines, etc. Aiming has nothing to do with adjusting for english.

I know backhand english can work, and I know at least one player who just twists on the last stroke and plays really sporty. But I have never seen Efren play but one way, and that is to line up for his english when he gets down on the shot and use a dead straight stroke. No cue twisting at all, before or during the stroke. I believe he aims at a point with his cue from my observations. I know others have said differently before. I just don't believe it because I have never seen it myself. If anyone has any video that shows something different, please feel free to prove me wrong.

unknownpro

 

[acedotcom]

That would be one of the systems shown in Mosconi's and Byrne's books. Diagrams from both books appear in the article http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-06.pdf

Joe Tucker's system is similar to that system.

You couldn't be righter... When I was a kid, Mosconi's little red book was my bible and his simple illustration about how to aim was the only info I ever needed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
...the object ball exists outside your mind.

unknownpro:
So does the ghostball.

Clearly we use different definitions of "exists".

Me:
Saying it's "real" doesn't make it so.

unknownpro:
Maybe not, but it was real before I said it.

Clearly we use different definitions of "real" too.

Me:
By visualizating (estimating) it, just like you do.

unknownpro:
So you can see it?

Add "see" to the list.

Without looking very closely at the stuff about masse I'll bet it's just more semantic differences and I'm not much interested in that kind of discussion.

pj
chgo

 

[Jaden]

I know backhand english can work, and I know at least one player who just twists on the last stroke and plays really sporty. But I have never seen Efren play but one way, and that is to line up for his english when he gets down on the shot and use a dead straight stroke. No cue twisting at all, before or during the stroke. I believe he aims at a point with his cue from my observations. I know others have said differently before. I just don't believe it because I have never seen it myself. If anyone has any video that shows something different, please feel free to prove me wrong.

unknownpro

I don't know who told you what BHE is but it is not twisiting as you stroke.
You still have to stroke straight through the ball to maintain consistency. It is lining up on the shot straight in and then rotating from your bridge hand so that the tip strokes straight through the point on the CB that has the amount of English on it that you want. Once you have that line, you still have to stroke straight through the CB on that line. There are still a lot of other things that you have to be aware of like hitting too hard or too soft, the too hard only has an affect because of CIT, collision induced throw, hitting too soft allows the balls to stay in contact longer bexause of a greater gearing affect, throwing it off a little more, but for the average shot, properly executed BHE is essential.