Aiming Systems EXPOSED:
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What about when it is true? I'll admit the snake-oil salesman term is pretty harsh. I do think there are a few "instructors" on here that don't have much to offer. Snake-oil salesman??? Probably not. But as the great philosopher Costanza once said, "It's not a lie, if you believe it."
I agree with you here. I think the reason these threads constantly end this way is because nobody is ever willing to give an inch. Yourself included. For me, pool isn't on the top of my priority list (although I do love it as much as anyone) so I'm willing to stand corrected on ANYTHING that happens on the table. Like most I can be stubborn at times but I keep an open mind about the game.
I agree that most things can be verified by going to the table. However, it is pretty easy to fool yourself into thinking that you are doing one thing, while you are actually doing another. In other words, you need to know what to look for. I've been down this road myself. I don't know how many times I've changed this or that about my stroke, only to start shooting better. Then I think I've found the magic bullet. Later on, I start struggling again and I question the changes that I implemented. For me, this is happening less and less the more I work on my fundamentals.
So ALL the instructors on here should ALWAYS be given the benefit of the doubt? I don't think so. There are some instructors on here that I respect (from afar) and there are others that couldn't pay me to give me a lesson. As far as civility is concerned - this is the internet, maybe you have unrealistic expectations
No thanks - I'll stick with Costanza.
lol. *Because* naming "bad instructors," or not even that, but just mentioning guys who you personally think are selling a "bit o' the oil" here (BTW, how do you like your oil -- straight up or on the rocks?) gets you in trouble with "the authorities". The best you can do, without getting your knuckles rapped (check with PJ for the latest "guidance") is to only vaguely allude to some subjects.
Nice try though -- but, as Smorg might have said: "THAT is some pretty stinky bait."
Lou Figueroa
This is what I mean. So by following this policy you get to imply that the instructors who frequent this site are snake-oil salesmen without naming them. How convenient.
Kind of a neat little catch-22 huh? You imply that they are con artists. Their students speak up and testify that they are not con-artists, you imply that the students are suckers like everyone who dials 1-900-MiracleCure at 3am.
Anecdotal evidence by people who actually took it to the table means nothing to you.
When professionals and shortstops step in to say that they took lessons from the instructors here and the information is valid it means nothing and doesn't stop the allusion machine from continuing to imply charlatanism.
And this post by you is a perfect example of such.
You have misunderstood Costanza then. If you spend your life doing something based on an untruth but you don't know it's untrue then it's your reality. I.e. if you believe that a child is your biological son and you raise him with all the love you would give to a genuine biological son then what does it matter if that child is not from your sperm?
If the CONTENT that any instructor is selling is nonsense then simply expose it. Go to the table and make a short video explaining how and why it's bullshit. Instead of simply SAYING it, just demonstrate it.
You're absolutely wrong about me. I am willing to embrace all sides and that is why I take things to the table and try them out. I don't believe in magic pills unless they are in mushroom form. And even then I understand that the "magic" wears off. I believe in what I can do on the table and I promote whatever that is.
And EVERY professional instructor on this site is die-hard proponent of fundamentals. So who exactly do you think is worthless?
Did I say that? I didn't say that anyone is beyond question. I said be polite just like you would with any person of experience that you don't know.
There are some instructors on here that I respect (from afar) and there are others that couldn't pay me to give me a lesson. As far as civility is concerned - this is the internet, maybe you have unrealistic expectations
Maybe so. On the other hand someday there will be a way to use the net to physically impact people and then watch how fast "civility" comes to the internet. Because I guarantee you that if we were all in a room together then the tone would be a LOT different. Very few of the people who so blithely toss out slanderous crap on "the internet" have the balls to say it in person to the person they are slandering.
No thanks - I'll stick with Costanza.[/QUOTE]
More stinky bait, lol.
Lou Figueroa
even all the way from China
it still stinks
It's not bait Lou. The fact is that you are simply using a weaselly way of calling people charlatans. No problem. You do it your way and I will do it mine. The point is that I can NAME the top instructors who frequent this site and point to their hordes of satisfied students as proof that their information is solid.
They would be Randy Goetlicher, Stan Shuffet, Scott Lee.
None of these guys are con-artists, charlatans or snake-oil salesmen. So your implications must be meant for others.
You're joking right?
Do you have any idea what Scott and the others teach and in what order?
I guarantee that you can learn these things from them. But more importantly they will get your technique in shape so that when you DO buy Freddie's book you can consistently execute the shots contained in it. So you don't have to wonder if Freddie's "system" is wrong or if it's your stroke.
Get real. When I was a diver I spent a lot to go train with Ron O'Brien. Why?
Because Ron O'Brien was a championship diver who had successfully trained many more champions. In other words he knew more about diving than all but a handful of people on Earth. On the whole planet there weren't more than 20 people who could coach at his level.
Scott and Randy and Stan have devoted their lives to learning everything about how to play pool and then how to teach it. I don't even know who you are but I'd be willing to put Scott in the box against you any day of the week if you think he can't coach.
So just to be clear, you want to anonymously go on record as saying that Scott Lee, Stan Shuffett, and Randy Goetlicher are "close to being charlatans"? Because they don't give away their time for free?
How about we just do a little experiment? I will hire Scott Lee and Randy and Stan to train a raw beginner for one month. I will give each one of them $1000 each for 10 hours of instruction (I hope $100 per hour covers it). The student is then free to practice as little as he or she wants to or as much as they want to.
You get another beginner who ONLY gets books to learn from and that beginner MUST practice at least 30 hours in the same month. You are allowed to provide your guy with all the books you think he needs.
At the end of that time my beginner will play yours a round robin of one-pocket, ten-ball, 14.1, and banks.
Can we bet $10,000 on the outcome? That ought to settle the books vs. personal instruction debate.
If you really think that Stan, Scott and Randy are "close" to being charlatans then your money is practically in the bank.
Bet? When and where can we set this up?
How the hell would you know?
you obviously haven't worked with any of them or you would be singing a different tune..
I felt I got a hell of a deal with RandyG and would have been a good deal at twice the price.
please list the parts of my game that you feel I was misinformed on..
Quiz me..
I've never understood these aiming systems.....I and every other player I know just practiced and learned as we went....it should be natural....I used to live in west tn /ky......right on the border...it was all about the banks...no one I know used a system to learn to bank....and I'll give you a hint....think of some of the best bank players alive....well a couple of them are the ones I'm talking about. I will say if a system helps you get better then go for it....but it should always be natural...and easy......and fun.
Of course if you live somewhere where you are exposed to a particular discipline then you're going to just absorb knowledge of how to play without necessarily getting formal instruction. I grew up in Oklahoma and learned to play golf on the snooker table before I ever learned the rules of nine ball. Playing Golf you had to learn the right moves or you would get drummed out of the pool room pretty quickly because no one would let you play if you were the one selling out to the guy behind you all the time.
So I watched what the better players did and practiced it on my own until I figured it out well enough. But there was a lot that they did that I couldn't figure out on my own and they weren't offering to show me either. So when those shots came up I would choose something else since I didn't want to sell out. Which meant that a lot of shots were closed to me until I either figured them out or someone showed me.
But if you don't live in bank country then the first time someone shows you a banking system and suddenly, within minutes, you are making bank shots much more consistently then learning such a system helps you immensely. It's becomes a foundation for you to get into the right space for the bank. Then if you have any sense at all you begin to learn what a little extra spin does, what speed does, what inside english does, what outside does, etc...and in the end you are a much better banker than if you had simply tried to learn by banging balls into rails.
Maybe you will never become a champion banker but you will certainly be better than most of your fellow ball bangers who don't have your "system" as a reliable starting point.
Is that right? Where on his site does he show you where to be on the shot? Maybe he can transition into another article off this spark of knowledge. I'll be waiting.
This is one topic that is covered as well as any other on my website and on VEPS. Here are some example resources covering this topic:
"VEPS GEMS - Part II: Basic Shot Making and Position" (Billiards Digest, February, 2010).
"VEPS GEMS - Part III: English and Position Control" (Billiards Digest, March, 2010).
"VEPS GEMS - Part IV: Safety Play and Strategy" (Billiards Digest, April, 2010).
Position control FAQ page
Strategy FAQ page
NV B.72 - Rail-first and ball-first shots with English, from VEPS II
NV B.73 - Leaving an angle and coming into the line of a shot, from VEPS II
NV B.74 - Center-of-table position and routes, with the 45-degree rule, from VEPS II
NV B.75 - 30-degree-rule natural-angle examples, from VEPS III
NV B.76 - Don't leave "big ball" for kick safety reply, from VEPS III
NV B.77 - Playing for exact position instead of to an area, from VEPS III
NV B.78 - How to choose good "key" balls, from VEPS III
NV B.80 - How and when to break out clusters in 9-ball, from VEPS III
"VEPS GEMS - Part III: English and Position Control" (Billiards Digest, March, 2010).
"VEPS GEMS - Part IV: Safety Play and Strategy" (Billiards Digest, April, 2010).
Position control FAQ page
Strategy FAQ page
NV B.72 - Rail-first and ball-first shots with English, from VEPS II
NV B.73 - Leaving an angle and coming into the line of a shot, from VEPS II
NV B.74 - Center-of-table position and routes, with the 45-degree rule, from VEPS II
NV B.75 - 30-degree-rule natural-angle examples, from VEPS III
NV B.76 - Don't leave "big ball" for kick safety reply, from VEPS III
NV B.77 - Playing for exact position instead of to an area, from VEPS III
NV B.78 - How to choose good "key" balls, from VEPS III
NV B.80 - How and when to break out clusters in 9-ball, from VEPS III
Have you ever been to my site, watched any of my videos, or read any of my articles?
Regards,
Dave
Hating haters !
I prefer to be an American over any other nationality. We are loud, rude, and aggressive. We are also not nearly as naïve or stupid as some would have us. Certainly we are too generous and all too often foist our way of life on others but all things considered we have one of the best of civilizations. Unfortunately this includes allowing everyone to voice their opinions.
In our unique fashion we have learned to reap the benefit from all of the ideas presented by every one willing to give one. With our loud often obnoxious ways the individual has to learn to tolerate (and value the toleration) of everyone’s ideas. This means that the person with an opinion has to be able to defend it and has to accept the idea that it will be attacked with passion.
I have found that the truth usually speaks for itself in the midst of our loud, aggressive, opinions. And Like many others, I may not say much but stupidity is usually obvious to me and I discount the source. I think that many others do too. So when the haters show up I simply ignore them as part of the price we pay fr our way of life.
You never know so you have listen to everyone until you figure out that they are a fool. As some wag said, I may not agree with you, but I will defend your right to say it because for us, it works. It is the price we pay for believing that we are all equals.
I prefer to be an American over any other nationality. We are loud, rude, and aggressive. We are also not nearly as naïve or stupid as some would have us. Certainly we are too generous and all too often foist our way of life on others but all things considered we have one of the best of civilizations. Unfortunately this includes allowing everyone to voice their opinions.
In our unique fashion we have learned to reap the benefit from all of the ideas presented by every one willing to give one. With our loud often obnoxious ways the individual has to learn to tolerate (and value the toleration) of everyone’s ideas. This means that the person with an opinion has to be able to defend it and has to accept the idea that it will be attacked with passion.
I have found that the truth usually speaks for itself in the midst of our loud, aggressive, opinions. And Like many others, I may not say much but stupidity is usually obvious to me and I discount the source. I think that many others do too. So when the haters show up I simply ignore them as part of the price we pay fr our way of life.
You never know so you have listen to everyone until you figure out that they are a fool. As some wag said, I may not agree with you, but I will defend your right to say it because for us, it works. It is the price we pay for believing that we are all equals.
Just a couple quick things:
I understood the Great Costanza just fine. We are saying the same thing. I was just pointing out that if someone teaches something that is nonsense and they believe it to be true, than they don't qualify as snake-oil salesmen in my book at least.
As far as who I believe to be worthless I will keep that to myself for now. I don't believe all instructors are created equal. But I will say that I believe the instructors that focus on the fundamentals are the ones that I believe are doing the greatest service and these are the ones that I would be most interested in working with.
You are right about the civility thing. Many people say things behind the keyboard that they wouldn't say to someone's face. This is something I try to keep in mind every time I type something.
With much love and affection,
BD
Funnily enough I find the opposite in today's world. I find that the "information superhighway" is littered with people simply crapping all over everything they can and anyone they can for not much purpose other than to get their jollies pissing on people.
There is a big difference between voicing your opinion and being bigoted, racist, mean, and a general jerk.
I really believe (hope) that someday someone will invent the internet equivalent of a punch to the face. When that happens civility will come back. Maybe when Apple finally implants us all with Ibrains and we can physically hurt someone else with our thoughts then we can get back to being civilized. Until then all this crappy hating is just serving to toughen us up and help us grow thicker skins.
How many other nationalities have you been?
And candor will dive out the nearest window and the usefulness of the internet will be dramatically diminished.
I like the fact that you can say things on the internet that you can't say in person - it allows conversations that would never happen in person. As an example, when you and I got together physically we were much more restrained than we are with each other here (out of habitual politeness, not because either of us feared a bop on the nose, but the effect was the same), and as a result we didn't really confront each other's ideas - we were more likely to just let things we disagreed with slide in favor of social harmony.
I think internet anonymity is a useful thing even though it fosters some uncivility, because we can actually exchange more frank information. We're different people on the internet than we are in person, but I think that's a good thing to a point - we should embrace it and not hold it against our "in person" personas.
I'm talking to myself here too - I'm definitely not perfect at any of that.
pj
chgo
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