Aiming Systems EXPOSED:

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Good post JoeyA.

It may be that some of the systems "haters" have,like myself,been approached by locals in our pool rooms who were trying to hawk their aiming system.Speaking for myself I just shoed the person away and went on hitting balls.I think I was at around 201,246 balls at the time but I may have miscounted.

Being wary of aiming systems does not justify viscous attacks on this forum but it is a forum for all opinions and not strictly a marketplace IMO.
 
I've never learned an aiming system & never taken any instruction. It's not that I'm against them I just never wanted to.(maybe I should).
I can say you are correct in sight pictures. Sometimes I get on the table & I see everything. Mostly when I shoot every day (practicing). I've been in a slump all summer & I know my sight picture isn't there.(i haven't had time to practice all summer)

And PJ your right, it is annoying when someone keeps quoting 16 paragraphs just to say that they agree or disagree with a post.
 
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"The reason is simply because it isn't an "aiming system". Anyone can hit a milliion balls (HAMB), provided you have the time and energy. It will take you between 1-3 years, playing hours and hours every day. This precludes a job, family, or even a life away from the pool table. Still, as JB said, you may not realize much significant improvement, because without some kind of basic instruction you won't know what you're doing...right or wrong. You will miss and make shots, and not know why...or how to make adjustments to correct errors. As John Barton so adroitly put it...the HAMB system is total BS for 99.9% of poolplayers."

With statements like the above, I will for sure say my two cents worth.

This statement implies poolplayers can't figure their ass from a hole in the ground, very arrogant. That no one can observe what is happening in front of their eyes on the table and not be smart enough to figure it our for themselves. I would not go to a instructor that had that view about their clients.

Does a full time job really stop some from HAMB. No

Does being married really stop some from HAMB. No

Maybe playing pool is their life so HAMB is living to them.

Any instructor that says quality time at the table, which HAMB is, is 99.9 % bullshit for most players is just wrong and wants to drum up business.
 
Greg...Tell us how you really feel! LMAO I don't know, or care, why you're such a hater. I guess I should have prefaced my comments with "for some players"...even though I thought that was pretty clear. How about you look at it objectively (you know what that means, don't you?)...one person hits a million balls with no direction, no goals that can be measured (other than counting balls), and no interaction with an instructor or other high level players (those are "lessons" too). If they spend a significant amount of time dedicated to HAMB, they will likely spend many hours every day pursuing that goal...possibly to the exclusion of all else (there are too many pro, or wannabe pro, players to count, that fall into this catagory). The more they play, the less time it will take. Someone who only plays a couple hours a day might possibly take 20 years to complete HAMB. Naturally these are two extremes, and lots of people would fall in between.

Now take someone else, who has taken advantage of "lessons", either with a good instructor, or with expert players. They might be able to accomplish the same goal as the first person (get to a confident level of expertise) only having to hit 250,000 balls (that would be the HAQMB system)...because they had more of an idea on how to process their "lesson" information/knowledge, and put it into play in their competitive game. Both ways work, as is evident from lots of posters here. Which one someone chooses is up to them. Now...please allow me to rephrase my last sentence, hopefully to bring up to your "non-arrogant" standard: As JB so adroitly put it...the HAMB system may likely have inconsistent results for, imo, 90+% of poolplayers, who have no way to evaluate or measure what they're trying to learn. Is that better? :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

duckie said:
"The reason is simply because it isn't an "aiming system". Anyone can hit a milliion balls (HAMB), provided you have the time and energy. It will take you between 1-3 years, playing hours and hours every day. This precludes a job, family, or even a life away from the pool table. Still, as JB said, you may not realize much significant improvement, because without some kind of basic instruction you won't know what you're doing...right or wrong. You will miss and make shots, and not know why...or how to make adjustments to correct errors. As John Barton so adroitly put it...the HAMB system is total BS for 99.9% of poolplayers."

With statements like the above, I will for sure say my two cents worth.

This statement implies poolplayers can't figure their ass from a hole in the ground, very arrogant. That no one can observe what is happening in front of their eyes on the table and not be smart enough to figure it our for themselves. I would not go to a instructor that had that view about their clients.

Does a full time job really stop some from HAMB. No

Does being married really stop some from HAMB. No

Maybe playing pool is their life so HAMB is living to them.

Any instructor that says quality time at the table, which HAMB is, is 99.9 % bullshit for most players is just wrong and wants to drum up business.
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Scott Lee said:
Now take someone else, who has taken advantage of "lessons", either with a good instructor, or with expert players. They might be able to accomplish the same goal as the first person (get to a confident level of expertise) only having to hit 250,000 balls (that would be the HAQMB system)...because they had more of an idea on how to process their "lesson" information/knowledge, and put it into play in their competitive game. Both ways work, as is evident from lots of posters here. Which one someone chooses is up to them. Now...please allow me to rephrase my last sentence, hopefully to bring up to your "non-arrogant" standard: As JB so adroitly put it...the HAMB system may likely have inconsistent results for, imo, 90+% of poolplayers, who have no way to evaluate or measure what they're trying to learn. Is that better? :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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It is not "both ways work." It is not A or B. There are bad instructors out there and expert players who couldn't explain how to make a cup of coffee, much less a pool stroke. And there are guys that just want to sell lessons and/or DVDs, and make a buck -- never mind that what they are teaching is gibberish and steering players in a direction that derails their game. They have something with a cute name embroidered on their shirt, or maybe some initials to make "The System" sound official, and sell it to the players, who, because they so disparately want to get better, buy the baloney.

Once again for the reading impaired: that is not all instructors, or to say instruction is bad. But Scott makes it sound like there is only one fork in the forking road. Even John says there are many roads to Rome, and he couldn't find Rome with a map, guide book, GPS, an Indian guide, and Rick Steves in the back seat :-)

Lou Figueroa
j/k, John
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I stand by the meat of that statement, by the way. Dave does have most pool info on his site, and there are no secrets.
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PJ,

I appreciate your statement, and this has always been my goal for the website and VEPS, but there is certainly still room for improvement (i.e., a few current "secrets" are still missing, and more will become known over time).

Thanks again,
Dave
 
I've tried learning all these kicking systems. All the numbers of the diamond system and that stuff just makes my head hurt.
I used to run around with Hillbilly for awhile and his method of kicking got me all confused too. So I just created the simplest way that works for me.
Seems to work great and everyone I play against ( that I beat ) wants to know my system. And I follow the K. I. S. S. Rule.
 
BasementDweller said:
Why not???

I have a job too. If I give my boss or co-workers information that is suspect I get questioned on it. If the information is really suspect I could get fired for it.

If you make a living as an instructor and you come on this site to discuss topics, you should be more than ready to defend your views. Which by the way, several instructors are more than willing to do.

If someone says something that I disagree with and the mood strikes me - I will post a reply. I don't give a rip if they are an instructor or not.

I miss the good old days when message boards were used for lively debate. Anymore, it seems like everyone is so sensitive. Now ALL OPINIONS need to be treated like equals. THEY ARE NOT!
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There is a difference between discussion and slander. Calling someone a snake-oil salesman, a con artist, a huckster, etc... is slanderous when it's untrue.

If by lively debate you mean saying anything at all to get someone pissed off then I don't miss that type of "discussion" at all. People can have witty exchanges without getting slanderous about it. I grew up in the pool room and have been in great barking sessions where each of us goes to great lengths to denigrate each other's game and then after we gamble we all go out to eat. But that's not how this plays out on here.

The thing is that any "suspect" information in pool can be EASILY verified. Just go to the table. But in fact there are plenty of people here who adamantly REFUSE to do that and PREFER to argue their side into infinity using slander to pepper their disdain for the information presented.

The professional instructors here have made a career out of providing information that they took to the table and learned inside and out. They don't do this as a hobby or a second job, they don't regurgitate Robert Byrne's work. They have learned how to teach and figured out how to break pool down to it's simplest elements. They should be given some respect for that dedication and experience and at least treated CIVILLY.

But if you want to know why they aren't then read up on Plato's Allegory of the Cave.
 
For every good instructor there is a few bad ones.
Those guys realized one day they needed to make a living and it wasn’t going to happen by playing.
So, they charge bunch of newbies outrageous amounts of cash for knowledge that is readily available or sometimes just wrong and dress it up and back it up with certificates.

Don’t see a problem with criticizing information given by professional teachers in pool or otherwise, especially if there is an ample evidence to the contrary to what they teach.
Everyone has the right to state an opinion, doesn’t mean it is hate.

As much as the instructors have a right to make a living at their chosen profession, pool players have the right not be misled or ripped off.
Seems logical enough.
 
I think too many on here miss the debating club in high school or college or couldn't make it or got kicked off it.:D Johnnyt
 
lfigueroa said:
It is not "both ways work." It is not A or B. There are bad instructors out there and expert players who couldn't explain how to make a cup of coffee, much less a pool stroke. And there are guys that just want to sell lessons and/or DVDs, and make a buck -- never mind that what they are teaching is gibberish and steering players in a direction that derails their game. They have something with a cute name embroidered on their shirt, or maybe some initials to make "The System" sound official, and sell it to the players, who, because they so disparately want to get better, buy the baloney.

Once again for the reading impaired: that is not all instructors, or to say instruction is bad. But Scott makes it sound like there is only one fork in the forking road. Even John says there are many roads to Rome, and he couldn't find Rome with a map, guide book, GPS, an Indian guide, and Rick Steves in the back seat :-)

Lou Figueroa
j/k, John
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Lou, that is because that is what you WANT to read. Scott or Randy have never said their way is the only way. In fact, there have been numerous times they have stated just the opposite. What they HAVE said, is that their way is what they believe to be the easiest way. Big difference that appears lost on the instructor haters. And, why do you feel a need to throw in an insult to John?
 
I had a feeling that the haters would once again show their disdain for instructors by mocking them by innuendo and not having the courage to name these "bad instructors".

To all of the haters, if you're callous enough to knock good and decent men, trying to earn an honest living, be man enough to at least name them without hiding behind your innuendos and mean-spirited comments. I'd like to know the names of these "bad instructors".

It's always the same small group of cyber-bullies that want to have their way on the forum. It really gets old listening to the haters' demagoguery and hate message.
 
Originally Posted by JoeyA View Post
One of the things you need to play pool well is a perfect sight picture.

YOU MAY NOT NEED A STRUCTURED AIMING SYSTEM TO DEVELOP A PERFECT SIGHT PICTURE.

Well stated Joey. I agree 100%!
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I second that!

I was caught up in all the hype in these aiming systems for two years and my game went in the gutter! All though I did get some good pointers here and there.

If I had spent all that time hitting balls in instead of on here reading and watching videos my game would be a ball better.

I believe the best aiming system is repetition. Just set up a 1/8 ball hit and hit it in 100 times. And so on.
 
I would like to hear who the snake oil salesmen and bad instructors are, too. Although I think these type of comments are disrespectful unless done in person. I think a person should be able to address their accuser(s). Anything less is cowardly.

Best,
Mike
 
JoeyA said:
I had a feeling that the haters would once again show their disdain for instructors by mocking them by innuendo and not having the courage to name these "bad instructors".

To all of the haters, if you're callous enough to knock good and decent men, trying to earn an honest living, be man enough to at least name them without hiding behind your innuendos and mean-spirited comments. I'd like to know the names of these "bad instructors".

It's always the same small group of cyber-bullies that want to have their way on the forum. It really gets old listening to the haters' demagoguery and hate message.
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lol. *Because* naming "bad instructors," or not even that, but just mentioning guys who you personally think are selling a "bit o' the oil" here (BTW, how do you like your oil -- straight up or on the rocks?) gets you in trouble with "the authorities". The best you can do, without getting your knuckles rapped (check with PJ for the latest "guidance") is to only vaguely allude to some subjects.

Nice try though -- but, as Smorg might have said: "THAT is some pretty stinky bait." :-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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Mikjary said:
I would like to hear who the snake oil salesmen and bad instructors are, too. Although I think these type of comments are disrespectful unless done in person. I think a person should be able to address their accuser(s). Anything less is cowardly.

Best,
Mike
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Mike, having read your posts here for a while, I believe you are a smart enough cookie to figure that out on your own :-)

Oh, and how do you know I haven't already spoken my mind to the guys in person?

Lou Figueroa
*you* can speak to *me*
in person any old time :-)
wouldn't want you to be cowardly
 
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lfigueroa said:
Mike, having read your posts here for a while, I believe you are a smart enough cookie to figure that out on your own :-)

Oh, and how do you know I haven't already spoken my mind to the guys in person?

Lou Figueroa
*you* can speak to *me*
in person any old time :-)
wouldn't want you to be cowardly
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Did I hit a nerve, Lou? Sorry about that. :-)
If you spoke to them in person you probably were a lot less cuter than you have been on this thread.

These are just the results of a few button pushes on the keyboard. Nothing more. I never take them seriously...just talk.

Best,
Mike
 
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Mikjary said:
Did I hit a nerve, Lou? Sorry about that. :-)
If you spoke to them in person you probably were a lot less cuter than you have been on this thread.

These are just the results of a few button pushes. Nothing more. I never take them seriously...just talk.

Best,
Mike
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No apology needed -- no nerve stuck. After 15 years on the internet pool forums I am way beyond all that. Nice try though, though one thing you will eventually learn is to not pat yourself on the back so quickly ;-)

And since you weren't there you cannot address how cute I was or wasn't.

Lou Figueroa
can be pretty cute
in person
 
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