Aiming Systems...my take !!!

[SJDinPHX]

Dick...Every great player began as a total novice. For MOST of them, someone showed them some things...like how to hold the cue, and how to move it somewhat accurately and repeatedly, at different tip positions and different speeds (and the differential results). Then by practice they got to the point where they did these things automatically. Then experience applying these skills is what made many of them top players. Very few top players never got any influence from someone else (meaning, I guess, that they would be savants or complete naturals). BTW...those same 'fundamental basics' are based on engineering principles (Newton's Laws of Motion, for example).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, I understood the laws of physics the first time I fell out of a tree.
I also know that an engineering degree is not mandatory to become a very good pool player. The only thing I ever GOT from a top player, was my brain's beat out, until I learned to defend myself.
Cue balls and object balls, are innanimate objects. Setting them in motion, to make them do what you want them too, is something that cannot be learned by studying physics. JMHO

Dick

 

[dabarbr]

Big C, I would be the last person to ask about aiming. All I do now is beat the rubber to death. (maybe I should try some lessons from Colin ?)
Seriously, I was a fairly good shot-maker in my time. I don't think I ever gave any thought to it any more than I did about walking. Repetition, (and missing lots of balls) eventually got to where pool became a natural part of my life.
If I were not fairly successful at it, I don't think I would have stayed with it very long. Thats all I can say. I have NO secret method. If I did, I would be glad to share it.

Thanks for asking.

Dick

PS I think you would get the same answer from any player close to my age group.(which is very,very old.)

As someone in your age group I agree with your above statement. Aiming systems are only for the beginners with simple shots, after that it's on you to develop whatever it takes to put the ball in the hole.

The beginner just needs help to understand what needs to happen to pocket the ball. This can only be explained on simple shots, after that there are too many variables involved.

If I'm on my case $100 and need to pocket the winning ball there is no aiming system that I'm going to rely on. I will go with my instincts. I'd hate to miss that ball and blame the aiming system.

P.S. Dick, Have our paths ever crossed?

 

[SJDinPHX]

As someone in your age group I agree with your above statement. Aiming systems are only for the beginners with simple shots, after that it's on you to develop whatever it takes to put the ball in the hole.

The beginner just needs help to understand what needs to happen to pocket the ball. This can only be explained on simple shots, after that there are too many variables involved.

If I'm on my case $100 and need to pocket the winning ball there is no aiming system that I'm going to rely on. I will go with my instincts. I'd hate to miss that ball and blame the aiming system.

P.S. Dick, Have our paths ever crossed?

I don't believe I've ever met anyone named "dabarbr".:smile:
(I'm guessing you may be The Barber. No I don't think so)

Dick

 

[dabarbr]

I don't believe I've ever met anyone named "dabarbr".:smile:
(I'm guessing you may be The Barber. No I don't think so)

Dick

Frank the barber. I spent a lot of time in the Bay area in the late 60's. Alameda, the city, Oakland, San Leandro, San Jose, actually all over.

 

[RonV]

...Since we are into " typos, " it should be pointed out that the word is " infinite " not "infinate ".

Unfortunately, that's just one of your many errors. And the most benign. The reason pool is still in the dark ages is because it hasn't become a real discipline capable of being taught, learned, and practiced.

A discipline converts a " craft " into a methodology. Medicine, engineering, architecture and the like have all been converted into methodologies. They are disciplines.

Each of these disciplines/methodologies converts accumulated meaningful experiences, and best practices into systematic, well-organized systems. That's why these fields advance.

You're advocating going back to the stone age! The bulk of our labor force applies knowledge to work. How do you think they get that knowledge? According to your reasoning, it should be gained through trial- and -error learning.

Welcome to the 21st century! Indeed, knowledge in the form of a learning program is the foundation for skill. Knowledge without skill in applying that knowledge is unproductive.

The days of apprenticeship are over. When knowledge is organized into a system, people can acquire in less time and with less effort what took years of apprenticeship learning.

You say you've been playing pool for over 50 years. Remember World War Two? We needed fighter pilots, navigators, welders, engineers of all kinds, cooks etc. The armed forces used systems and programs as the foundation for a great variety of skills.

People without great talent or intelligence, that is, average people became highly skilled in specific crafts in 90 days or less. Most people prior to the war didn't think it possible to learn fast and successfully craft skills.

Thankfully, they didn't apply your reasoning. We could've won the war without the use of systems.

A system/methodology--pure and simple--enables us to be hoisted on the shoulders of our predecessors. It makes a subject teachable.

No system will make a genius out of an incompetent. But knowledge organized into a discipline really helps the merely competent; it endows them with playing effectiveness that was unachievable prior to learning the system. But-- and this is a big but--it does wonders for the truly able; it endows them with an excellence formally beyond reach.

Think about this for a while before responding.

 

[Big C]

Frank the barber. I spent a lot of time in the Bay area in the late 60's. Alameda, the city, Oakland, San Leandro, San Jose, actually all over.

Maybe you know my Father in-law? Al Frates. He used to own Alan's and Foster freeze there in San Leandro.

 

[dabarbr]

Maybe you know my Father in-law? Al Frates. He used to own Alan's and Foster freeze there in San Leandro.

Sorry, I can't place the name, it's been a long time. I've always been bad with names but real good with faces. I frequently went to the Town and Country Billiards on 14th St in San Leandro. There was also another place in an in a near by city but I can't remember the name. San Lorenzo?

 

[SJDinPHX]

...Since we are into " typos, " it should be pointed out that the word is " infinite " not "infinate ".

Unfortunately, that's just one of your many errors. And the most benign. The reason pool is still in the dark ages is because it hasn't become a real discipline capable of being taught, learned, and practiced.

A discipline converts a " craft " into a methodology. Medicine, engineering, architecture and the like have all been converted into methodologies. They are disciplines.

Each of these disciplines/methodologies converts accumulated meaningful experiences, and best practices into systematic, well-organized systems. That's why these fields advance.

You're advocating going back to the stone age! The bulk of our labor force applies knowledge to work. How do you think they get that knowledge? According to your reasoning, it should be gained through trial- and -error learning.

Welcome to the 21st century! Indeed, knowledge in the form of a learning program is the foundation for skill. Knowledge without skill in applying that knowledge is unproductive.

The days of apprenticeship are over. When knowledge is organized into a system, people can acquire in less time and with less effort what took years of apprenticeship learning.

You say you've been playing pool for over 50 years. Remember World War Two? We needed fighter pilots, navigators, welders, engineers of all kinds, cooks etc. The armed forces used systems and programs as the foundation for a great variety of skills.

People without great talent or intelligence, that is, average people became highly skilled in specific crafts in 90 days or less. Most people prior to the war didn't think it possible to learn fast and successfully craft skills.

Thankfully, they didn't apply your reasoning. We could've won the war without the use of systems.

A system/methodology--pure and simple--enables us to be hoisted on the shoulders of our predecessors. It makes a subject teachable.

No system will make a genius out of an incompetent. But knowledge organized into a discipline really helps the merely competent; it endows them with playing effectiveness that was unachievable prior to learning the system. But-- and this is a big but--it does wonders for the truly able; it endows them with an excellence formally beyond reach.

Think about this for a while before responding.

Ron,

If you're talking to me, my older brother went into the service as a qualified radio tech. The army immediately assigned him to head mess hall COOK.
If you were even alive in WWII, you would know how we won that war. We didn't win it by "unbelievable training methods", we won it on pure guts and determination. Once again you have proven to me, you are only good with numbers, the real world is still out there waiting for you to discover it.
Regards'
Dick

 

[RonV]

You really don`t get do you...I was alive before the ww...

 

[1 Pocket Ghost]

And the pot called the kettle black

...Since we are into " typos, " it should be pointed out that the word is " infinite " not "infinate ".

You really don`t get do you...I was alive before the ww...

uhh, you might want to check out your two grammar/typo's in your last post....

 

[Mowem down]

You really don`t get do you...I was alive before the ww...

The only people smart enough to get it are the ones who know that both angles (points) are 100% correct...

An aiming system is simply "a technique"

If you keep missing a ball then you better find a new way to aim that shot.

POOL IS ABOUT KNOWLEDGE (FOR SURE)...BUT YOU CAN NOT TEACH "DESIRE","HEART",...."CHAMPION" TO EVERYBODY, BECAUSE EVERYBODY DOSN'T HAVE IT IN THEM FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER..

But hey keep squabbling, its making the game better (roll eyes)...and ruinning a good thread.

 

[Justlovecues]

...Since we are into " typos, " it should be pointed out that the word is " infinite " not "infinate ".

Unfortunately, that's just one of your many errors. And the most benign. The reason pool is still in the dark ages is because it hasn't become a real discipline capable of being taught, learned, and practiced.

A discipline converts a " craft " into a methodology. Medicine, engineering, architecture and the like have all been converted into methodologies. They are disciplines.

Each of these disciplines/methodologies converts accumulated meaningful experiences, and best practices into systematic, well-organized systems. That's why these fields advance.

You're advocating going back to the stone age! The bulk of our labor force applies knowledge to work. How do you think they get that knowledge? According to your reasoning, it should be gained through trial- and -error learning.

Welcome to the 21st century! Indeed, knowledge in the form of a learning program is the foundation for skill. Knowledge without skill in applying that knowledge is unproductive.

The days of apprenticeship are over. When knowledge is organized into a system, people can acquire in less time and with less effort what took years of apprenticeship learning.

You say you've been playing pool for over 50 years. Remember World War Two? We needed fighter pilots, navigators, welders, engineers of all kinds, cooks etc. The armed forces used systems and programs as the foundation for a great variety of skills.

People without great talent or intelligence, that is, average people became highly skilled in specific crafts in 90 days or less. Most people prior to the war didn't think it possible to learn fast and successfully craft skills.

Thankfully, they didn't apply your reasoning. We could've won the war without the use of systems.

A system/methodology--pure and simple--enables us to be hoisted on the shoulders of our predecessors. It makes a subject teachable.

No system will make a genius out of an incompetent. But knowledge organized into a discipline really helps the merely competent; it endows them with playing effectiveness that was unachievable prior to learning the system. But-- and this is a big but--it does wonders for the truly able; it endows them with an excellence formally beyond reach.

Think about this for a while before responding.

Well! I happen to be one of those barely 'merely competent' players who Ron V. has helped transform to the fringe of 'able' and 'almost there'. He told me a year ago that with practice of his system will come confidence. And with this 'confidence' I was able to improve drastically. I realized in one years time how Ron's method and vast knowledge was key to whatever improvements I had made. He is the reason why I have a new found passion for this game. Practice and League matches are looked forward to on a daily basis. It is never a bad day but a oppurtunity to be better.

 

[SJDinPHX]

A few reasons come to mind Dick;

1. The odd troll pops into such threads just to heckle with some 'just shoot da damn ball in' comment, getting people a little testy.
2. People cling to their pet system of the month like a dog does to a bone. They often react to any criticism or in depth questioning of it. With a pet system of the last few years, well, having a go at that is like having a go at their missus.
3. Many who use systems are not able to give in depth, understandable or at times accurate explanations of their system or how to apply it.
4. Some of us geometry / physics nerds get testy when we're told we're wrong or our points are irrelevant. Especially when it is about something which to us seems obvious and of crucial importance to the world. :grin:

All that, and probly more I can't think of right now, pretty much guarantees an action packed discussion when it comes to aiming systems.

Colin ~ will answer more tomorrow. Bed time now for me.

Colin,

Thank you for taking the time to enlighten me. I really thought all you AS guys hated each other. I guess I'm just as passionate about my viewpoint, as they are about their "theory of the month".
I was probably one of the trolls you were refering to when I first stumbled on to an AS thread a while back.
However, now that I see you realize your world is based on numbers, I can be more tolerant of you guy's.
Not more understanding, just more tolerant. Whoever said "you can't teach an old dog, new tricks, must have been refering to me.
Carry on guys, I hope you find the secret to making the ball go in the hole.
You'll be rich !!!!

Regards,

Dick

PS. I promise never to butt into your threads again. I can see its a very tight knit circle, that speaks a whole different language than this old warhorse.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Colin,
Do you not agree that it would take an MIT graduate to apply all those mathematical principles while bent over trying to make a long thin cut on the nine ball.

Not necessarily. It takes a bit of a whiz to examine systems and develop them, but a good system should follow some pretty simple guidelines. At most, my BHE system requires a player to have memorized some numbers and to be able to do a little math before they play they shot. Like (3 x 0.5) + 9.5 to determine their effective pivot point for that shot. For those who are capable, and with a bit of practice this is not hard and it doesn't need to be going through your head while you're making the shot.

Other types of systems can be even easier. eg. I'm gonna smash this shot with bottom right, so I better aim a little further right than normal to account for squirt (or the lack of time for swerve). That is a system because it makes some adjustment based on an expected physical outcome. It just isn't developed into a more complex system. You probably make many adjustments like this when you play which are systematic in nature. The only difference may be that you're not as familiar with the physics behind what makes that system work.

Knowing the physics and using systems can be a blessing or a curse. Usually a bit of both. For me they've definitely helped some parts of my game. I can come up with shots that most players haven't seen or wouldn't dare play. On the downside, if I'd spent all my time at the table, instead of dabbling with physics or systems, then I'd probably be a more consistant player who won more.

But I wish I could go back 25 years and start practicing with what I know now. I'm more interested in providing some information and methods that can help future players save themselves years of making poor conclusions using trial and error like I did.

Still, I'll keep shooting and hope to win a national title, but my individual game is not my major concern. However, playing well helps one to be able to put the power of systems into perspective.

[/QUOTE]Most of the worlds pool players do it for enjoyment and competition. The ones who become very proficient at it, did so because they realized very early on, they had an unusual grasp for the game the others simply did not.
Take those 100 kids Don Cherry was talking about. I know you feel you could change that 1% factor if you had them from the git-go. To me that would be
like forcing a kid to take piano lessons when he has no desire to learn music.
[/QUOTE]

I've done quite a bit of coaching, but mainly in track and field with pretty elite athletes. In pool, I've coached a few mates. Most people aren't worth coaching imho.

I've had many players come to me asking to be coached. I set them some tough sessions early on. 98% don't do it. They don't have the determination for it. So I don't go on coaching them. They're not ready.

The ones who do, my main advice is to practice long and hard, fight against failing and compete as often as possible. Those to me are more crucial than the systems. Though from time to time we'll play around with some systems and the player with go with what they think is useful to them.

As for training kids up from a young age, I guess that's up to the parents. For sure it would do little but provide painful memories for some, but with good instruction it could produce some prodigies.

I agree, anyone can be taught anything given enough time. But very few can be taught to hit a curve ball like Sammy Sosa, or snake in a long putt like Tiger. Engineering principles did NOT get them where they are today.
I'm starting to ramble. I do want to thank you again for responding in your always friendly manner.
Just know that I would not get up out of the electric chair to subscribe to Lord Kelvin's (your sig line) numerical theory. :wink:

G'day Mate

Dick

I'm not entirely sure about that. In snooker we see lots of young blokes running regular hundreds now. They've learned to imitate the stars of yesteryear and some of them improve upon it. Same in diving, gymnastics and many sports.

How much of this comes from systems, systematic training or the ability to observe (video) and understand the techniques in more detail can be debated.

However, I expect we'll see some schools of training in the future that produce a lot of very good talent based upon the systems they teach as well as their training methodologies. Something akin to the Harry Hopman Tennis Academy.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Jimmy M.]

A Couple Questions...

What "walking system" do you guys use to walk around? Do you have a "running system" for when you need to go faster? How about to avoid obstacles? You probably need a system for that, right?

Seriously, running at top speed through any series of obstacles must take far more coordination than pocketing a ball on a pool table, so I'm wondering if there's a system for that since, after all, your body's ability to collaborate with your brain and make tiny micro-adjustments just isn't that accurate, so you must need SOME sort of system for that, right?

How about an eating system? Do you guys use one of those? It takes an awful lot of coordination to unconsciously pick up your fork, stab your prey, and stick it in your mouth, right? I'm wondering where I can learn about the "half fork system".

Oh well. I'm about to use the "get my ass out of my chair" system and go hit some balls before I go to sleep. G'night all.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think for some pocketing balls comes more naturally and for those who it does not they look for something that can help them such as instruction and systems.I have never been taught by an instructor,the man who taught me stood very upright and spun the hell out of balls but he ran over 65 balls in straight pool and strung many racks of 9 ball so he could play some.I took naturally to his style of play because I could pocket balls okay for a beginner and banked pretty solid and kicked great.I knew a guy who used systems,he could not hit the side of a barn with a machine gun,I could not explain to him how I kicked balls,I just told him where I was hitting but with all the variables who can show it all.It makes a difference if your playing on a certain table,the balls,whether it is clean or dirty,humid or dry,to me its just too many variables for a system unless conditions are perfect.That is why the best players adjust quickly to the environment,the other guys don't and lose.

 

[gunzby]

I need to retract half my statement. Kicking/Banking aiming systems are very helpful. Not sure if I needed to pluralize that since it's generally one system.

 

[JB Cases]

What "walking system" do you guys use to walk around? Do you have a "running system" for when you need to go faster? How about to avoid obstacles? You probably need a system for that, right?

Seriously, running at top speed through any series of obstacles must take far more coordination than pocketing a ball on a pool table, so I'm wondering if there's a system for that since, after all, your body's ability to collaborate with your brain and make tiny micro-adjustments just isn't that accurate, so you must need SOME sort of system for that, right?

How about an eating system? Do you guys use one of those? It takes an awful lot of coordination to unconsciously pick up your fork, stab your prey, and stick it in your mouth, right? I'm wondering where I can learn about the "half fork system".

Oh well. I'm about to use the "get my ass out of my chair" system and go hit some balls before I go to sleep. G'night all.

Well there are running systems which runners study to get the maximum performance out of their body.

Race walkers also have special techniques.

Were you born knowing how to use a fork or did someone teach you? In some parts of society there are very specific "systems" for how to use eating utensils and you better know them or risk being cut out of the will.

I use chopsticks the wrong way and am constantly being corrected by my Chinese friends. I tell them to look at my belly with it's 20lbs extra and they can see that I manage to get the food. However that doesn't mean that I am not expending more effort to eat than someone who knows the proper way to use chopsticks.

I heard or read somewhere that most top 3-cushion billiard players don't use diamond systems but they all learned them. They learned them as a basis and a starting point and developed their feel from there.

As I said before the system is ONLY a way to get you to the right line. If you play enough then you will find that seeing the right line becomes automatic. Your brain does the figuring in a split second subconciously and you just get down on the ball. That is the equivalent of the "fork to mouth" system. At some point in your life someone taught you how to use a fork and you had to be conscious of the movements so that you didn't stab yourself until it became automatic.

 

[JB Cases]

I think for some pocketing balls comes more naturally and for those who it does not they look for something that can help them such as instruction and systems.I have never been taught by an instructor,the man who taught me stood very upright and spun the hell out of balls but he ran over 65 balls in straight pool and strung many racks of 9 ball so he could play some.I took naturally to his style of play because I could pocket balls okay for a beginner and banked pretty solid and kicked great.I knew a guy who used systems,he could not hit the side of a barn with a machine gun,I could not explain to him how I kicked balls,I just told him where I was hitting but with all the variables who can show it all.It makes a difference if your playing on a certain table,the balls,whether it is clean or dirty,humid or dry,to me its just too many variables for a system unless conditions are perfect.That is why the best players adjust quickly to the environment,the other guys don't and lose.

If a person uses any system, aiming, banking, kicking, whatever, as a crutch then they won't get too far. If they use it as a tool and combine it with a sensitivity and understanding of the variables then they will do real well.

It's like the people who learn to jump using a jump cue and all they learn is how to make the ball jump and some rudimentary sense of force. They use the jump cue as a crutch and sell out the shot more often than they end up with a good result. People who take the time to learn the finer points get deadly accurate with it and can stop the rock, draw it, jump into and out of clusters, play side spin, jump-kick and jump bank. Sometimes though even GOOD players need to be shown the proper way to handle a jump cue.

 

[Jimmy M.]

Systems as teaching tools have a practical application. Obviously, everyone learns EVERYTHING through some sort of system.

I doubt the runners are thinking of their systems while competing. If they are, I somehow find it difficult to believe that they are winning. The phrase "Paralysis by Analysis" comes to mind.

Well there are running systems which runners study to get the maximum performance out of their body.

Race walkers also have special techniques.

Were you born knowing how to use a fork or did someone teach you? In some parts of society there are very specific "systems" for how to use eating utensils and you better know them or risk being cut out of the will.

I use chopsticks the wrong way and am constantly being corrected by my Chinese friends. I tell them to look at my belly with it's 20lbs extra and they can see that I manage to get the food. However that doesn't mean that I am not expending more effort to eat than someone who knows the proper way to use chopsticks.

I heard or read somewhere that most top 3-cushion billiard players don't use diamond systems but they all learned them. They learned them as a basis and a starting point and developed their feel from there.

As I said before the system is ONLY a way to get you to the right line. If you play enough then you will find that seeing the right line becomes automatic. Your brain does the figuring in a split second subconciously and you just get down on the ball. That is the equivalent of the "fork to mouth" system. At some point in your life someone taught you how to use a fork and you had to be conscious of the movements so that you didn't stab yourself until it became automatic.