aiming systems r like a weight loss plan

[JB Cases]

How about this, I'll teach my guy how to stroke, without teaching him how to aim. You teach your guy to aim without teaching him how to stroke. My guy will bust your guy.

Bet.

So here are the parameters.

We build a table with no rails. When a ball is struck it goes off the table. You teach your guy to stroke on that table.

Meanwhile we build another table with one pocket on it and I will teach my guy how to aim and not say one word about how to stroke.

Both of us can explain deflection and have our guys hit the cue ball off center.

Then after one week we match them up on the pool table.

How much do you want to bet? You can keep me broke because my guy will beat your guy every time all day every day.

I am living proof that a person with a bad stroke can play good pool. But a person with a perfect stroke who can't aim is going to have a lot of trouble.

 

[JB Cases]

nevermind.........

Take what is useful and develop from there-Bruce Lee-Tao of Jeet Kune Do

Do you actually believe this?

 

[JB Cases]

That's not the point.
Aiming Systems Are Like Weight Loss Plan is the title of the thread.
I'm sure there are several weight loss plans that work, but there a ton that are bullkaka and unattainable.
A C player does not need an aiming system more than a fundamentals lesson.
A fat dude does not need a diet more than changing his lifestyle.

You guys are full of absolutes aren't you.

Most of these diets say very clearly that you must change your lifestyle for it to work and stick. That's the part most people ignore.

How do you know what a C-player needs? Or what an A-player needs?

Who made you or anyone else the arbiter of what any person needs at any time in their playing life?

This is what drives me crazy. People spend time thinking about how to play, they come up with methods and systems and offer those to the world and instead of everyone just saying "cool, we'll try it" there are many who go off about it being nonsense and hooey and the presenter some kind of fraud, yada yada yada.......without ever trying it.

And how do you know that learning CTE isn't a lifestyle change?

If SVB wrote a book about his aiming system would you tell him that his method is a fad and imply that it's worthless?

I would bet SUPER LARGE that if SVB did write such a book that 99% of the people on AZ (including the current anti-CTE crowd) would be fawning over him with NOTHING negative to say about it.

AND then I would DOUBLE UP betting that if some no name person wrote the SAME BOOK then the same people who now criticize CTE would burn that person at the stake.

 

[JoeyInCali]

You guys are full of absolutes aren't you.

Most of these diets say very clearly that you must change your lifestyle for it to work and stick. That's the part most people ignore.

How do you know what a C-player needs? Or what an A-player needs?

Who made you or anyone else the arbiter of what any person needs at any time in their playing life?

This is what drives me crazy. People spend time thinking about how to play, they come up with methods and systems and offer those to the world and instead of everyone just saying "cool, we'll try it" there are many who go off about it being nonsense and hooey and the presenter some kind of fraud, yada yada yada.......without ever trying it.

And how do you know that learning CTE isn't a lifestyle change?

If SVB wrote a book about his aiming system would you tell him that his method is a fad and imply that it's worthless?

I would bet SUPER LARGE that if SVB did write such a book that 99% of the people on AZ (including the current anti-CTE crowd) would be fawning over him with NOTHING negative to say about it.

AND then I would DOUBLE UP betting that if some no name person wrote the SAME BOOK then the same people who now criticize CTE would burn that person at the stake.

Why do you keep going back to CTE?
Read the thread title.
Maybe CTE is the Atkins Diet.
But, I don't know who has won a world title with CTE.
I think a bunch of them just use GB or line of aim. Heck, I think pocketing is just the result of them controlling the ball.
Hell, aiming systems are just like weight-loss plans. People argue over them.

 

[JB Cases]

It is not incorrect. As you said, "alignment happens when objects are brought into a line with each other", I said "Alignment is found through intuition and experience". The two are not mutually exclusive. Maybe you just didn't understand what I wrote, read it again. Unless you can describe how CTE doesn't rely on your subconcious, you just called yourself a fool. CTE must rely on your subconcious because it is not geometrically accurate.

Maybe you just don't understand the math? If alignment happens through intuition and experience then why do engineers use lasers and other devices to align things? It's funny but in endeavors where alignment is crucial there seems to be as little reliance on intuition and experience as possible.

Carpenters carry rulers. Although most of them probably can judge 6" pretty close and "see" level with pretty good accuracy they still use rulers and levels to do their work when it matters.

But your advice to pool players is not to use what exists and instead to rely on intuition and the subconscious to aim? Or to imagine a ghost ball and then place a spot according to where you imagine it to be?

So the master carpenter says to the apprentice, "son, just imagine a ruler on that 2x4 and drill a hole that is right where the middle is on your imaginary ruler." Yeah, that's how it goes.

No, the way it goes is that intuition and experience come from having learned within a framework. If you learn to aim using GB then you develop a feeling for aiming based on that. If you learn using CTE then you develop a feeling for aiming based on that. You are not born knowing what an inch is. You must be taught in order that you can "see" six inches without a ruler. And even so you might just be off because your perception of distance might not be that great.

So what, you can prove that 1+1=3 that doesn't make it right.[/QUOTE

So now you are saying that if something can be proven it doesn't matter? You demand proof and then say that even if I gave you the proof it doesn't matter?

That would be a flawed experiment. You don't have a control to account for the placebo effect.

Then you design the experiment. how would you set it up?

No, sorry. The confidence lies in the players confidence in CTE. They are confident that if they do what CTE tells them to do, the ball will go in. Before they didn't have confidence that the ball would go in or else why would they change aiming systems?

Um, because DESPITE having confidence that the ball would go it with their previous methods the balls were NOT going in with the consistency that they wanted? Is is SO HARD for you to understand that a person can set up on a shot and be 100% confident that they are aimed right and yet still be wrong?

Something concrete that is geometrically imperfect, but close enough so that their subconcious takes over to get them aligned perfect. Its the same thing as feel.

Um, no it's not. First of all the subconscious is not magical. There is no way that it just KNOWS all the dead perfect angles. If that were so then anyone could walk up to any shot without any aiming systems and just their "subconscious" do the work.

Secondly how do you account for the misses. So the system gets the player close and according to you the subconscious does the rest. Then how do you explain missed shots? I mean if the subconscious somehow automagically fills in the gap you claim exists then does it just take a break when a player misses. "ooops sorry dude, I was checking out that chick on table five......hope it didn't cost you the set."

A serious defect would be a cue that is significantly warped, that has a tip that is far below standard, or that has any other imperfection that causes it to not hit consistently.

Oh I see, and you set the standards? So if you and I are evenly matched would you allow me to buy you a cue from Kmart that is straight, has a single layer leather tip and fits all the BCA's specifications for a cue? Would you gamble with me if the condition were that you had to use the cue I purchased for you from K-Mart - assuming the cue were made according to the BCA's specs?

First of all bowling alley wood is some of the best wood that can be used in any wooden product but I understand your meaning. Measuring how well a cue performs is something that Predator has pioneered. But before that it was just players who could feel it. They may not be able to tell how a cue is made as the results of the Texas Express experiment found out but they definitely know a good "hit" and a bad hit when they use a cue. I had this conversation with Rodney Morris before and he explained as you know when you can draw your ball a certain way with one cue as opposed to another.

Sorry, but "hit" is completely subjective. If a player becomes used to a cue and doesn't have any reservations about it, there will be no difference in performance.

Sorry but you are wrong. Performance is not subjective. There is a reason cues are made the way they are now and NOT the same as they were in 1920 and 1867.

I never asked you to compare ghost ball and CTE, but whatever. I'll address this anyways.

Here is my rebuttal. Ghost ball (with adjustment for throw) is geometrically perfect (not that I use ghost ball). Prove that CTE is geometrically perfect and you can then attempt to debate about which is better.

Sorry, GB is only perfect on paper. In practice it's an imperfect estimation system that relies heavily on the individual's perceptive ability.

That would be the placebo effect at work. Do you even know what a placebo is?

I do and you are using it wrongly in your argument.

Through experience.

Through instruction.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I am now training with a top coach. This coach has taught me a stroke technique that is not found in books that I know of. Nor have I seen it taught on video instruction that I have seen.

I am say 98% positive that if I were to release this information here on AZ then I would get burned at the stake.

I would be in the 2% that would not light the match.....and would be very interested in reading about this technique...

My PM box is open...:wink::wink:

 

[Ratta]

Hussa,

i always enjoy JBcases enthusiasm-- always interesting postings and good pov.

And anyway what all the guys are telling: EVERYONE IS USING A " SO CALLED AIMING-SYSTEM" even if he thinks he s using none.

No matter which one- and JB, im also always wondering that there are always guys who care about nothing and everything instead of just accept if something works for someone.

Must be very frustrating for those ppl-can t explain it another way.

lg
Ingo

 

[cookie man]

Last jan i went on a diet and took pro-one lessons from Stan. I lost 20 pounds which i have kept off and am now the best player on my masters team (because of an aiming system) instead of the third best player. It all works if you put in the time, sounds like some people are lazy.

 

[lstevedus]

I would be in the 2% that would not light the match.....and would be very interested in reading about this technique...

My PM box is open...:wink::wink:

I also have an open mind and would like to hear about this stroking technique. I don't see very well, (my contacts are +8.00), and would appreciate anything that would give me a better stroke.

My best playing shaft is made of bowling alley wood. I paid $65. for it with a Moori tip.

 

[TheBook]

Agreed. Practice makes perfect. But all these DVDs and lessons will accelerate your learning curve. U will eliminate a lot of trial and error. But it all comes down to table time.

It does take more than knowledge. It takes the skills to be able to perform.

Just because you know where to aim does not guarantee success. Take the simplest shot there is. The straight in shot. The aiming points are right there. There is no magic. Aim the center of the CB to the center of the OB. It doesn't get any easier. No magic no gimmick. Then why is it one of the hardest shots?

 

[mrsmith1976]

Hmm....

It does take more than knowledge. It takes the skills to be able to perform.

Just because you know where to aim does not guarantee success. Take the simplest shot there is. The straight in shot. The aiming points are right there. There is no magic. Aim the center of the CB to the center of the OB. It doesn't get any easier. No magic no gimmick. Then why is it one of the hardest shots?

Because even if you know where to hit it, without knowing HOW TO GET IT THERE:shrug: your still screwed:...just saying...I agree with you.

 

[duckie]

Do you actually believe this?

Why yes I do.

To bad you have nothing useful to offer...ever. Just ending ranting and raving. Pointless statements and so on.

So far, there is nothing useful about CTE to me. See, Bruce Lee doesn't say what is useful. The is for the person to decide.

You need mental help. I highly suggest you seek it out.

And until I see you run through 2 racks in straight pool, You can't shoot worth a shit and therefore you over compensatate for it by these wild ass post. This type of behavior is displayed by people that have SDS(Small Dick Syndrome).

 

[JB Cases]

Why yes I do.

To bad you have nothing useful to offer...ever. Just ending ranting and raving. Pointless statements and so on.

So far, there is nothing useful about CTE to me. See, Bruce Lee doesn't say what is useful. The is for the person to decide.

You need mental help. I highly suggest you seek it out.

And until I see you run through 2 racks in straight pool, You can't shoot worth a shit and therefore you over compensatate for it by these wild ass post. This type of behavior is displayed by people that have SDS(Small Dick Syndrome).

Would you care to place a small wager on me running two racks of 14.1?

I will bet you $500 that I will do so within one hour of trying on live streaming video.

Bruce Lee said you should study all forms and take what is useful. That's why he learned them all.

You find nothing useful in CTE because you have closed your mind to everything but that which you think is needed.

I am sure that of the two of us Bruce would take me as a student long before he would take you.

The truly sad part is that you quote him but do not understand him.

Oh and as to your crack about having a small dick - look to the left to see what a guy with a small dick can achieve. Here I will give you an arrow for free to help you find it <--------

 

[sfleinen]

Would you care to place a small wager on me running two racks of 14.1?

I will bet you $500 that I will do so within one hour of trying on live streaming video.

Bruce Lee said you should study all forms and take what is useful. That's why he learned them all.

You find nothing useful in CTE because you have closed your mind to everything but that which you think is needed.

I am sure that of the two of us Bruce would take me as a student long before he would take you.

The truly sad part is that you quote him but do not understand him.

Oh and as to your crack about having a small dick - look to the left to see what a guy with a small dick can achieve. Here I will give you an arrow for free to help you find it <--------

Guys:

(First, apologies to JB that I picked his post as the one to post this reply to. But I have to start somewhere, and this is as good a place as any.)

Are you guys serious? You're f***ing kidding me, right? Now we've degenerated into small dick insults? (Duckie, you're way, W-A-Y out of line here!)

All this because of some aiming system? I mean, it's one thing to debate the merits of an aiming system. But it's quite another to get personal like this. And for what? An aiming system???

I gotta tell ya, guys. *Now* I see a grand example of bangerdom at its finest. To get so worked up about an *aiming system*. Ok, ok, perhaps this is a very involved subject and maybe *I* am underestimating its importance. Perhaps I get worked up at the overblown sales pitches because it's above me. Maybe I'm looking up at two superior players and I just don't get it. But wait, two racks of straight pool? And needing an hour to do it? Are you even serious?!?

Wildly shaking head in bewilderment,
-Sean <-- ran a 112 on January 10th.

 

[justadub]

I also get a little sad when I see the threads devolve into this kind of schoolyard stuff.

 

[luckwouldhaveit]

You guys kill me truly with this nonsense. You can't understand that when someone is excited about something that helps them to be a better player then they tend to make exuberant and hyerbolic claims.

This..if you don't like the CTE stuff, no one is forcing you to use it.

Personally I've been convinced through the threads to give CTE a try and I probably wouldn't have heard of it otherwise. Btw I think I pocket balls fine as it is.

 

[cleary]

As of now, I've spend $0 learning 90/90 system so who ever is making these big bucks needs to raise their prices.

LIAR! I know for a fact you spent money on table time!

 

[JB Cases]

Guys:

(First, apologies to JB that I picked his post as the one to post this reply to. But I have to start somewhere, and this is as good a place as any.)

Are you guys serious? You're f***ing kidding me, right? Now we've degenerated into small dick insults? (Duckie, you're way, W-A-Y out of line here!)

All this because of some aiming system? I mean, it's one thing to debate the merits of an aiming system. But it's quite another to get personal like this. And for what? An aiming system???

I gotta tell ya, guys. *Now* I see a grand example of bangerdom at its finest. To get so worked up about an *aiming system*. Ok, ok, perhaps this is a very involved subject and maybe *I* am underestimating its importance. Perhaps I get worked up at the overblown sales pitches because it's above me. Maybe I'm looking up at two superior players and I just don't get it. But wait, two racks of straight pool? And needing an hour to do it? Are you even serious?!?

Wildly shaking head in bewilderment,
-Sean <-- ran a 112 on January 10th.

\


I didn't say I would need an hour Sean. I said I would do within an hour on live stream. Sorry but I am not a semi-pro like you. I did run about 38 balls the other day from a break shot just screwing around because would like to run a decent number at the SBE Fury 14.1 Challenge and I thought I should practice a little.

I said an hour because I am giving myself a little breathing room in case I get a bad roll.

Of course if I would just print out the arrow then there wouldn't be any bad rolls because then I could learn how to make three ball caroms in my sleep.

Don't put this on me. I only asked a guy if he believes in what he chooses to quote in his sig line. Most people put things like that in their sigs because they find them meaningful.

I read it on Duckie's sig line and went to read about Bruce Lee and founf that indeed Bruce espouses taking what is useful and leaving the rest. To do that he said it is important to study and understand all styles.

That is why I don't think that Greg is being a very good example of someone who understands Bruce Lee's philosophy.

Because if he was then he would have absorbed CTE already and be able to tell us what he thinks is useful from the system.

If he wants to bet a $1000 I will run 29 balls in less than 30 minutes. It takes me an average of 47 seconds to set up on each ball using CTE so that's cutting it close.

 

[sfleinen]

I didn't say I would need an hour Sean. I said I would do within an hour on live stream. Sorry but I am not a semi-pro like you. I did run about 38 balls the other day from a break shot just screwing around because would like to run a decent number at the SBE Fury 14.1 Challenge and I thought I should practice a little.

I said an hour because I am giving myself a little breathing room in case I get a bad roll.

Of course if I would just print out the arrow then there wouldn't be any bad rolls because then I could learn how to make three ball caroms in my sleep.

Don't put this on me. I only asked a guy if he believes in what he chooses to quote in his sig line. Most people put things like that in their sigs because they find them meaningful.

I read it on Duckie's sig line and went to read about Bruce Lee and founf that indeed Bruce espouses taking what is useful and leaving the rest. To do that he said it is important to study and understand all styles.

That is why I don't think that Greg is being a very good example of someone who understands Bruce Lee's philosophy.

Because if he was then he would have absorbed CTE already and be able to tell us what he thinks is useful from the system.

If he wants to bet a $1000 I will run 29 balls in less than 30 minutes. It takes me an average of 47 seconds to set up on each ball using CTE so that's cutting it close.

John:

Yes, I did take it that way (that you'd "need" an hour to run 28 balls) and I apologize to you for misunderstanding you. But now the pigeon sh*t is on duckie -- who suggested only a 28-ball run to prove something it in the first place (as if a 28-ball run "means something" to him personally). This, on top of his very poor small dick comments. I've told you this before, I believe you're a man of your word, so if you say you can run 38 balls, I believe you. I didn't "put this all on you," by the way -- you'll recall that I apologized for using your post as "exhibit A," but I had to start somewhere, and that was as good a point to start as any.

What I will fault you for, John, is why do you continue going on with this guy? Why do you follow him down every rabbit hole he leads you into? As if you're proving something to the readership by doing so? There comes a point, IMHO ("humble" being the key operative word there -- you can tell me to "go get bent" if you like) when something is just a lost cause. Or, the situation has turned a corner into a place where it's enough to let the person's bad move stand all by itself, without going down that rabbit hole. IMHO, that corner was rounded when duckie used the small dick comments. I personally would've let his post sit like that, without a reply from me, in all its splendor. Wow, such boneheadedness -- bright, shiny, gleaming, can even see it from space. Maybe I think differently from most, but my martial arts training (2nd dan in Ji Do Kwan -- a blend of Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do) taught me that sometimes you use a person's own momentum to work against him/her. Let him spiral down that rabbit hole. Wait for the loud <thud!> when the top of his head hits bottom. Then watch him try to extract himself out of it when Mr. Wilson comes into play.

I honestly don't think he's worth your time, John. A man of your creative power has better things to do with his time. Like think of that new Industry-changing Case Design(tm).

Just some thoughts from an outsider looking in,
-Sean

 

[JB Cases]

Basically Sean I don't feel like anyone is a lost cause. And also I get a kick out of hoisting people on their own petards to misuse Shakespeare. Sucks when it happens to me but I suck it up and learn from it. If people are going to put meaningful quotes in their sig lines and then act just the opposite with what they say then I am going to call them on it if they challenge me.