Nuh uh.
pj
chgo
Aiming Systems - The End Justifies the Means
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
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pj
chgo
John,
I agree with you 100%. In fact, many "systems" to help with this can be found on the Top 100 pool tips, "gems," and "secrets" webpage. However, much skill, "feel," and experience is still required to actually make the systems work consistently and reliably over a wide range of speeds, spins, angles, distances, conditions, and situations.
I wouldn't say I disagree with you on this in general. However, "intuition" and/or "feel" are often required to estimate CIT, and to adjust for squirt, swerve, and throw when using English.
Good point. To me something like speed control, which is important on almost every pool shot, is a great example of something that requires a lot of "feel" developed over many years of successful practice and experience under different conditions. Spin control (e.g., for draw, stun, and English) also requires a lot of "feel."
Agreed; although, I wouldn't go as far as saying the "feel" part can be "practically nonexistent." However, somebody with great skills and lots of experience will obviously have solid intuition and "feel" at the table, which can help create a lot of confidence and success.
Regards,
Dave
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http://www.infinite-billiards.com/en/SEE.html
Ekkes's website..a lot of free trailers there that will give you the idea of what he's teaching..
everyone has a "gift"
Thanks, I'll take a look at that tomorrow....everyone has a "gift" when it comes to what you're showing.
Thanks, I'll take a look at that tomorrow....everyone has a "gift" when it comes to what you're showing.
imagine asking a professional Rifleman/Sniper/Sharpshooter how he aims
I agree with your p.m. to a certain degree, and and aiming is a popular subject.....I have to admit it IS one of those subjects that can be just as complicated as you want to make it... what makes it really confusing is when a top pro tells you they just shoot at the object ball and it goes in every time.....I can see why it may lead to a sincere need for prescription medicine
The best way I can think to describe this is in an analogy.... FIRST, imagine asking a professional Rifleman/Sniper/Sharpshooter to describe his "aiming system"....he would look at you kind of funny and say "I look at my target, then I line up my back gun sight to my front gun sight and put it directly where I want my bullet to go and then squeeze the trigger....if my nerves are steady and no negative thoughts enter my mind, my bullet will generally hit where I'm aiming....if it goes a little low, the next time I'll aim a little higher and if it goes high and to the right, next time I'll aim a little lower and to the left...in other words I'll calibrate my "sights" so that I hit my desired target, but it may take some practice before my gun sights are perfectly in line with my eye sight.
In other words, his eyes, body, and gun would have to ALIGN to the target for his shot to be successful...THEREFORE EVERY PART OF THE ALIGNMENT IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT (feet/body/eyes/sights/gun) This is a process that even the best marksman in the world would have to go through and it's the same in pool. And it's the same because once the marksman's alignment is calibrated through some trial, error and practice he no longer has to think about it...he simply lines up as usual, pulls the trigger and hits the target....doesn't this sound like how a pro describes his "aiming system?"
Now, the other part of the analogy would go back to pool itself, and the question would be "what do the gun sights represent in a pool shot?"
The front gun sight in this analogy would be your eyes aiming down the line of the shot....lets just say it's a straight in shot so that we don't further complicate this by how we're going to create the desired angle (once our alignment is correct and we understand how this all comes together creating any angle is no more difficult than shooting a straight in shot).
The back sight is your feet....they point your body at the target in such a way that you can consistently do it time after time.....because think for a moment, no matter how good your "aim" is in pool, if your body's not in the same position relative to the line of your pool shot, it would be impossible to get the same result time after time..and your body follows your feet so you must in effect aim with your feet.
So your body, like the back gun sight MUST BE in the same relative position to your eyes, thus to the line of the pool shot every time. Before any aiming system will work EVERY time these things must coordinate. When I'm pocketing balls my best I aim with my whole body.
I agree with your p.m. to a certain degree, and and aiming is a popular subject.....I have to admit it IS one of those subjects that can be just as complicated as you want to make it... what makes it really confusing is when a top pro tells you they just shoot at the object ball and it goes in every time.....I can see why it may lead to a sincere need for prescription medicine
The best way I can think to describe this is in an analogy.... FIRST, imagine asking a professional Rifleman/Sniper/Sharpshooter to describe his "aiming system"....he would look at you kind of funny and say "I look at my target, then I line up my back gun sight to my front gun sight and put it directly where I want my bullet to go and then squeeze the trigger....if my nerves are steady and no negative thoughts enter my mind, my bullet will generally hit where I'm aiming....if it goes a little low, the next time I'll aim a little higher and if it goes high and to the right, next time I'll aim a little lower and to the left...in other words I'll calibrate my "sights" so that I hit my desired target, but it may take some practice before my gun sights are perfectly in line with my eye sight.
In other words, his eyes, body, and gun would have to ALIGN to the target for his shot to be successful...THEREFORE EVERY PART OF THE ALIGNMENT IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT (feet/body/eyes/sights/gun) This is a process that even the best marksman in the world would have to go through and it's the same in pool. And it's the same because once the marksman's alignment is calibrated through some trial, error and practice he no longer has to think about it...he simply lines up as usual, pulls the trigger and hits the target....doesn't this sound like how a pro describes his "aiming system?"
Now, the other part of the analogy would go back to pool itself, and the question would be "what do the gun sights represent in a pool shot?"
The front gun sight in this analogy would be your eyes aiming down the line of the shot....lets just say it's a straight in shot so that we don't further complicate this by how we're going to create the desired angle (once our alignment is correct and we understand how this all comes together creating any angle is no more difficult than shooting a straight in shot).
The back sight is your feet....they point your body at the target in such a way that you can consistently do it time after time.....because think for a moment, no matter how good your "aim" is in pool, if your body's not in the same position relative to the line of your pool shot, it would be impossible to get the same result time after time..and your body follows your feet so you must in effect aim with your feet.
So your body, like the back gun sight MUST BE in the same relative position to your eyes, thus to the line of the pool shot every time. Before any aiming system will work EVERY time these things must coordinate. When I'm pocketing balls my best I aim with my whole body.
Guys I might have been wrong about Ekkes. It might be Ralf Eckert who has a method for determining how far and in what direction the cue ball will travel based on distance from the cue ball. Either way it's one of them and it's very accurate from what I saw on video. If I find the videos online I will post the links.
pool's a Game of angles and zones
The Geometry is most important...pool's a Game of angles and zones.
The Geometry is most important...pool's a Game of angles and zones.
cue ball's path
@JB
it is in my SEE-SYSTEM training program in the section position play.
...The natural track line of the CB is due to the kind of stroke you use
( follow/draw/stun) the speed, side spin and the ANGLE (relation of CB/OB/POCKET)
I show this with the help of my rule 60 - angle = rebound angle of CB for OBs laying close (within the width of 1.5 balls) to a rail for follow shots (with and without side spin-
and "the CB wants to go where it came from rule" for draw shots with the help of the clock system. (with and without side spin)
Ekkes
@JB
it is in my SEE-SYSTEM training program in the section position play.
...The natural track line of the CB is due to the kind of stroke you use
( follow/draw/stun) the speed, side spin and the ANGLE (relation of CB/OB/POCKET)
I show this with the help of my rule 60 - angle = rebound angle of CB for OBs laying close (within the width of 1.5 balls) to a rail for follow shots (with and without side spin-
and "the CB wants to go where it came from rule" for draw shots with the help of the clock system. (with and without side spin)
Ekkes
John, you are thinking of Ralf Eckert's reference lines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oePl59qfOT8
He has a few more there as well as banking.
Wrist Twist.
That is a fine list of players who use the wrist twist and there are many others who use it as well.
What is most interesting is these players use non-wrist twist when applying English as well.
Making light of this technique is an academic boondoggle.
The same comment applies to aiming system haters. :grin:
That is a fine list of players who use the wrist twist and there are many others who use it as well.
What is most interesting is these players use non-wrist twist when applying English as well.
Making light of this technique is an academic boondoggle.
The same comment applies to aiming system haters. :grin:
What technique? How exactly do you perform it and what specific things does it accomplish?
Or is this just more celebrity-hugging?
pj <- celebrities need hugs too
chgo
You need a bear hug. lol
I couldn't agree more.
Joey,
There are many players out there that do many things. Often, they might not even know they are doing them. Also, sometimes, there might be other ways to do the same things, but they do things the way they do out of habit because that's the way they learned to do it and that's the way they have practiced them for many, many years. Sometimes, some of these things are bad habits, and other times they might be purposeful techniques that the player developed deliberately. Regardless, top players have learned to master whatever techniques they use. If you spend enough time with a technique, it can be mastered. However, if someone is learning from scratch and wants to learn a technique to apply English reliably and consistently with as little practice as possible, wrist turn or twist might not be the best advice (even though some, if not many players, can learn to master the technique).
There are advantages to wrist twisting and stroke swooping, but for most people, the disadvantages will far outweigh the advantages. For more info, see the stroke swoop resource page.
Joey, why do you so often feel the need to label people (or groups of people), and call them names? My mama used to tell me about people that do this, but I don't remember what she used to say about them. :frown:
Regards,
Dave
If you mean "aiming system haters", I hope you don't fall into that category. :frown:
Did she say, "I hate them there labellers. You know, them what label people?"
?
:grin:
- s.west
strokes "like the Slight of Cue stroke" are just used to do something extreme
I used to make fun of people that used slip strokes when I was young. I was in Detroit trying to play CornBread Red and told him "if you use that SlipStroke against me I'll make you slip and fall down"
oke: I was kidding, and still wouldn't recommend using that type of stroke, but there were certain shots that he hit extremely well.
Some of those strokes like the "Slight of Cue stroke" are just used to do something extreme, but not recommended for regular play. It's just like Masse' stroke, Jump Shot strokes or Chip Strokes. All games have their own "specialty shots" and strokes.
I used to make fun of people that used slip strokes when I was young. I was in Detroit trying to play CornBread Red and told him "if you use that SlipStroke against me I'll make you slip and fall down"
oke: I was kidding, and still wouldn't recommend using that type of stroke, but there were certain shots that he hit extremely well. Some of those strokes like the "Slight of Cue stroke" are just used to do something extreme, but not recommended for regular play. It's just like Masse' stroke, Jump Shot strokes or Chip Strokes. All games have their own "specialty shots" and strokes.
Joey,
I wasn't referring to any specific quote, just a general pattern. Also, I wasn't implying any of your name calling is directed specifically toward me (although, I suspect this at times). Here are a few examples of the types of statements you (and a few others) seem to write or imply quite a lot:
"You're just an aiming system hater."
"You're just a Naysayer that doesn't even try stuff at a table."
"You're just a pro hater, trying to drive away from the forum people who actually know how to play."
"You're just a clueless academic that needs to get out more."
"You're just a Naysayer that doesn't even try stuff at a table."
"You're just a pro hater, trying to drive away from the forum people who actually know how to play."
"You're just a clueless academic that needs to get out more."
These might not be direct quotes, but they are certainly similar to things you (and a few others) have written.
BTW, I certainly don't think of myself as any of those things. Concerning aiming systems, I certainly don't hate them. In fact, I have many of them described, illustrated, and demonstrated on my website here:
I've probably put more time and effort into these resource pages over the years than any of the others in the FAQ section of my website.
The only things I sometimes dislike about "aiming systems" are the ridiculous "marketing claims," anecdotal "testimonials," and "endorsements" sometimes used in attempts to "sell" them. Examples of some of the "marketing claims" (many of which are direct quotes from past AZB posts) can be found in the marketing introduction for DAM.
Regards,
Dave
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I've also seen a few people do amazing things using a "slip stroke," but I certainly wouldn't teach this technique to students (unless a student specifically asked to learn about it).I used to make fun of people that used slip strokes when I was young. I was in Detroit trying to play CornBread Red and told him "if you use that SlipStroke against me I'll make you slip and fall down"
I wouldn't put a "slip stroke" or a "wrist twist" in the same category as "jump shot" or "masse shot." Jumps and masses require special techniques (and in some cases special equipment) different than those required for regular shots (for which a "slip stroke" is sometimes used).
Regards,
Dave
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I would add that jumps and masses are unique kinds of shots that can only be accomplished with jump and masse strokes. I don't think there are any kinds of shots that can only be accomplished with slip strokes or wrist twists.
pj
chgo
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