Aiming with English

[Patrick Johnson]

If you read carefully what Patrick Johnson said, than you will know why it works especially using draw and not using follow. The most important part is, from Patrick: "Unless the amount of swerve in the shot just happens to exactly match the amount of squirt".

Let me explain. When most peoples talk about using english, they will mention deflection (squirt). But they forgot swerve. When you are using left english, the CB will squirt to the right, but swerve will move the CB to the left. In reality, we only see the CB go to the right direction, because the squirt are higher than the swerve. How can you apply maximum CB swerve? Exactly! Hitting above center. When you are using follow, you are applying unconscious swerve. To explain it more simple. When you are hitting low left, the CB will go to the right. When you are hitting high left, the CB tend to go to the left. I've experiment this with a few peoples and by myself. And this looks to be true.

The conclusion is (with a regular deflection shaft):
1) Hitting left, the CB go right.
2) Hitting low left, the CB go even more to the right.
3) Hitting high left, the CB goes a little to the left

I think 2 and 3 are reversed for most shots. Hitting high usually causes more swerve than hitting low, because the downward force on the cue ball from hitting high causes more "masse spin" (as if you're hitting with more downward angle) and also causes it to "act" more quickly (because you're pushing the cue ball more forcefully into the cloth).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

When you use FHE..you should not use the word pivot. You are shifting the bridge hand NOT pivoting.

I think it's correct to call it "pivoting" either way. The only difference is that the location of the pivot changes: with BHE the pivot is at the front hand; with FHE the pivot is at the back hand.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...really low deflection shafts can have a pivot point longer than the cue!

This may be true for the "effective pivot point", factoring in the effect of swerve (this "effective pivot point" changes for every shot). But I don't think any cue really has an "absolute" pivot point that long (the pivot point that compensates for squirt without swerve and doesn't change).

When you are using both FHE and BHE...you are really pivoting about a point longer than the cue.

Not using the standard definition of BHE (moving the back hand in the opposite direction of the intended spin direction). If you're applying right side spin, for FHE you'd move your front hand to the right and for BHE you'd move your back hand to the left. For a pivot point beyond the butt of your stick you'd have to move both hands to the right (the front hand a little more than the back hand). You might have meant to say this.

pj
chgo

 

[Curdog]

I've got to acknowledge that this is one of the most helpful threads I've seen in a long time. Looking forward to practicing today. The sad thing is that I couldn't tell you right now what method I use to apply english. This is after more than 40 years of playing.

 

[WesleyW]

I think 2 and 3 are reversed for most shots. Hitting high usually causes more swerve than hitting low, because the downward force on the cue ball from hitting high causes more "masse spin" (as if you're hitting with more downward angle) and also causes it to "act" more quickly (because you're pushing the cue ball more forcefully into the cloth).

pj
chgo

I think that's a misunderstanding. I compare it to the original line when hitting just center. Perhaps, I can explain it better when I use a picture. But I also make a mistake by myself. I didn't mention, that the results are using FHE.

Let me explain it with a different view:

On all the three shots you are aiming at the center of the short rail. But you are not compensating any squirt. You are using parallel english on all the three shots. The objectballs are the places where the CB would end.

1-ball: Using high left.
2-ball: Using left english.
3-ball: Using low left english.

CueTable Help

When you are applying FHE, the balls will end like this:

CueTable Help

I've tried this with many peoples (with regular deflection shafts), and the results are still the same.

 

[klockdoc]

You're not using "parallel english"; there's no such thing. What's parallel with what?

pj
chgo

but I also want to mention here a couple of comments about your videos for the thread readers:

2. The different methods of squirt compensation you describe, fronthand english (FHE), backhand english (BHE) and parallel english (PE) don't actually produce different amounts of squirt; they simply compensate by different amounts. BHE might appear to reduce squirt, but actually just compensates a lot. FHE might appear to increase squirt, but actually just compensates less. PE might appear to produce "mad amounts" of squirt, but actually just doesn't compensate at all. The squirt in all these cases is the same; it's the amount of compensation that changes. [By the way, thanks for helping me in my crusade to do away with the mistaken idea of "parallel english".]

Again, thanks for the videos and I hope these comments are helpful.

pj
chgo

Question Patrick. In one post you are saying PE doesn't exist. Next post, you are explaining it?

What is it? For the readers.

 

[WesleyW]

Question Patrick. In one post you are saying PE doesn't exist. Next post, you are explaining it?

What is it? For the readers.

First post:
Parallel on english. (english = spin. there ain't no parallel line on spin)

Second post:
Applying english by placing the cue parallel on the imagine cue of a center ball hit.

Two different kind of things. Again a misunderstanding

 

[NaturalEnglish]

For a pivot point beyond the butt of your stick you'd have to move both hands to the right (the front hand a little more than the back hand). You might have meant to say this.

Thats exactly what I meant.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Question Patrick. In one post you are saying PE doesn't exist. Next post, you are explaining it?

What is it? For the readers.

When I say it "doesn't exist" I mean it doesn't work as described. When I describe it I'm describing how you might try to use it (but it would fail as described).

I think when people say "parallel english" they really mean "adjusting my aim for squirt, but without using BHE or FHE". There's really nothing "parallel" about it; that's a misleading term. With all of these methods (BHE, FHE, "PE" or whatever) you have to adjust your aim by exactly the same amount. That means not parallel with the intended cue ball path (unless swerve happens to exactly cancel squirt for that particular shot).

pj
chgo

 

[SCCues]

When you have a shot that requires you to hit the cueball off center, how do you aim?

1. Do you get down on the shot applying center ball.

or

2. Do you get down and apply the English right away.


I've asked a few people, and have received various responses. So it seems that it's different for each person. However, as always, each person tends to think their way is best.

After years of playing and not completely understanding the effects of english on my shots I thought my game would never get any better. I knew I had to compensate my aim to allow for the deflection of the cue ball off my tip opposite from the english I applied and it was a guessing game for me especially since I didn't use the same cue all of the time.

A friend of mine and I talked about this problem often and we both decided to try predator 314 shafts on our cues. I didn't like them at first because I didn't know how to aim with them, but after I got used to the predator shafts my game has improved more since I switched to predators than anything i've ever done to try and help my pool game.

I found a cue that I like which has a 5/16x14 thread joint and I use a Moori Slow tip on my predator shaft and I just aim the same way with or without english and this cue and shaft set up works for me.

I think english, deflection, and swerve are the hardest thing a beginning player has to master and there appears to be more than one way to do it. I chose the low deflection shaft method which works for me. Some players don't like playing with low deflection shafts and I didn't like them at first myself.

James

 

[Catahula]

I just put this up on youtube last night and would like some real pool players to look it over. It really wasn't 100% ready to put up but I figure to get some feedback now before its completely ready. Feel free to offer any kind of feedback, good or bad you won't hurt my feelings. and may save me from making some mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=24DC30773D56323B

I just posted same thing in the straight pool section cuz a thread entilted twisted english caught my eye.

Joe...
Thanks for the Youtube posting. It was very well done and very informative.
Your postings continue to represent the best things about what this forum can be. People like yourself, Scott Lee, JoeyA (the list is endless) who, simply because of their love of the game, are willing (and wanting) to share their knowledge of the game. For me, it doesn't get any better than that.
Reps to you Sir!
Tommy

 

[Jaden]

About half through so far and everything so far is bang on

I just put this up on youtube last night and would like some real pool players to look it over. It really wasn't 100% ready to put up but I figure to get some feedback now before its completely ready. Feel free to offer any kind of feedback, good or bad you won't hurt my feelings. and may save me from making some mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=24DC30773D56323B

I just posted same thing in the straight pool section cuz a thread entilted twisted english caught my eye.

The only criticism that I would have is that you used the word use when stating "getting used to..." It should be used with a "d" at the end.


Jaden

 

[Jaden]

The third video and the last thing you go over.....

Joe, the ABSOLUTE best thing you state on that video is the last thing that you go over.


In my experience in teaching people how to use BHE, the most difficult thing to overcome is that subconscious tendency to compensate and not stroke straight.

It was great when I went to New Orleans and shot with JoeyA, because he was good enough and capable of shooting straight consciously and didn't compensate as much and could see for himself that BHE does work.

He ended up not wanting to use it, atleast not on every shot because he has gotten to a high enough level by feel and feels more comfortable sticking to feel, but for new players or players who are just starting to take the game seriously or for players who have found that they have hit a roadblock, NOTHING beats BHE.

I also like that you have found that using a combination of FHE and BHE helps when using low deflection shaft technology.

For me when I was using a predator, (which I still have as my break cue), I didn't think about doing that and I didn't like having a twenty inch bridge, so I actually cut off the tip and ferrule and drilled out the foam core, added a new tenon and ferulle, so that the end mass was increased and I could use BHE without a long bridge.

Jaden

 

[Terry Erdman]

Joe's video

Joe you are the greatest! Your books are tremendous and great practice drills. The quality of your material and explainations are perfect. The videos you posted are great videos and fully get across all aspects of english. I don't see any need to change the quality or content of what you expained. By the way, your inside english drill is the nuts and comes up so often I have a tendency to want to use it too much! Maybe Patrick Johnson should read, watch and listen instead of trying to explain it to the boss. Keep your material coming, Joe, it is much appreciated!

 

[Joe T]

Glad you enjoyed them I know I enjoy making them. As said previously I also believe compensating for squirt and swerve are 2 of the biggest stumbling blocks a player will have. I see players reach the point where they know they should apply side spin but they get afraid cuz they have missed in the past and rather than putting time aside to embrace it and add it to their game they end up reverting back to center ball under pressure and this just leads to bad position on the next ball.

My wife said take it easy with the greatest, she has to live with me!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Maybe Patrick Johnson should read, watch and listen instead of trying to explain it to the boss.

Maybe you should ask Joe what he thought of my suggestions. Do you think he was insincere when he asked for comments? My experience with Joe is that he wants to offer his students the best possible instruction and so he really wants to hear suggestions that might improve it. He's one of the best there is and I think he'll agree that's part of the reason.

pj
chgo

 

[DoomCue]

I think 2 and 3 are reversed for most shots. Hitting high usually causes more swerve than hitting low, because the downward force on the cue ball from hitting high causes more "masse spin" (as if you're hitting with more downward angle) and also causes it to "act" more quickly (because you're pushing the cue ball more forcefully into the cloth).

pj
chgo

While I totally agree with you on your dislike of the term "parallel english," I can't agree with you on this particular post. Players are definitely more "jacked up" on draw shots than follow, so I don't think follow + english creates greater swerve than draw + english. As I understand it, swerve is most influenced by the downward component of the cue's force at impact. I think it's fairly intuitive to conclude that draw + english creates more swerve than follow + english (and it looks like WesleyW has proven this empirically).

In my experience, if I need to hit a mini-masse, I would aim to hit low on the CB (plus english, of course), or elevate the butt more than usual if I want to contact the CB on the horizontal axis. I think I would have to jack up even more to get the same effect if I tried to contact the CB above its equator.

-djb

 

[klockdoc]

Joe or anyone?

In Joe's video, he talks about how parallel english creates more deflection than other systems.

On the other hand, he talks about that pros come into the shot parallel with center of the CB.

If this method creates MORE squirt, why don't the pros have a problem with this method?

Or am I missing something?

 

[Joe T]

I'm going take my crack at how high & low amounts of side spin cause different amounts of squirt&swerve and I'm just throwing something out there and I'll tell you right now its just a guess or possiblity on my part, no facts to back it up but I'm sure one of our technical experts can come up with an easy formula or solution to describe it.

We all know the cb bounces when struck with any or a certain amount of force, how much I don't know but it doesn't take much we know that and as someone said most players jack up at least a little bit more when drawing the ball than they do when following. I know I don't make a conscious effort to jack up more when drawing but I do lower my bridge and I do make a conscious adjustment when following and that adjustment is lowering my back hand and raising my bridge hand which gets the stick a little more level. Anybody see where I'm going?

If you hit a cb with low and it jumps slightly and it leaves the cloth it would seem that it would take longer for the swerve to take affect and when I'm following I believe there's less jump, more friction so the swerve takes over faster.
(Dr Dave, calling Dr Dave. Can you get that high speed camera to lay flat on the table?)

I know the ball probably still jumps with the top but just visualize for a moment of yourself hitting the cb firm and low and firm high but a little more level, which one is gonna jump more.

Now firm, high and jacked up, sounds like a nightmare right?
But it actually possible that a player like that might get closer to similiar amounts of squirt and swerve when using top and bottom than a player like me. Not telling everyone to go out and get JACKED UP. I was just thinking of a player I use to play that was jacked up all the time and it always baffled me that he could play that way.

So bottom line, does the cb jump more at a medium-high speed with a slightly more elevated cue than follow at the same speed but a little closer to a level cue? And could this cause the swerve to grab later?

Sleep on that folks, I am.

Edit I'm back and I swear I'm no fraud! Immediately after posting this I returned to the front page and there's Dr Dave with new high speed video clips and the 1st shot was draw with a level cue and the 2nd was with slight elevation. We got jump. And he mentions how when the ball is in the air its obviously not loosing spin so it obviously couldn't be swerviing either. Now we just have to ask him to try to duplicate the stroke speed with top and see which cb is in the air the greater distance?
Good night for real.

 

[Joe T]

In Joe's video, he talks about how parallel english creates more deflection than other systems.

On the other hand, he talks about that pros come into the shot parallel with center of the CB.

If this method creates MORE squirt, why don't the pros have a problem with this method?

Or am I missing something?

We must have been typing at the same time I didn't see your post.

I say the pros walk into the shot with their stick already slightly angled, not parallel. And trust me this is what they do, I studied so many of them up close when their was a PRO TOUR and thats also why I put in the part where you listen to what they say they do but then you have to make sure to get a peak at them when they're actually playing because I had some players tell me they did it one way but they didn't know they were doing it another way.