Alex vs. Shane - Is this true?

branpureza said:
most players do look uncomfortable when they're losing.

i think svb is awesome, on and off the table, but it seems like the going trend around this forum is to glorify him as the greatest whenever he happens to beat somebody and make excuses for him when he loses.

shane will get out-played on any given day just like all champions, nobody's that good.

except maybe efren...
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it was more than him losing that was making him look uncomfortable at the table. He looked uncomfortable in the first rack. But I deffinitley agree with you that Shane can and will get out-played on any given day. And on a side note, I actually think Alex has a better game on average than Shane, but that Shane has a better high gear than Alex. It makes for an interesting matchup, that's for sure. But that's JMHO....
 
p1noy said:
Are you saying they should play 10 ahead alternating breaks so nobody can take advantage of the "pack factor"? Sounds like a never-ending story to me..
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If alternate break would make 10 ahead "a never ending story" then that sort of proves my point.

If two players are so closely matched that with each getting a "turn" after the other player scores, the match would go on forever then 10 ahead is too many.

All major sports are limited in some way. 4 quarters in football...9 innings in baseball...3 periods in hockey, unless there is a tie. Best of X in tennis (male/female) with tie breakers. 4 quarters in basketball. 72 holes in golf etc.

What does not happen in those sports is that if a player/team gets points ahead, then the game is over regardless of the basic limitations and without exception, every player/team gets an equal chance to compete.

IN THEORY, 10 ahead is supposed to prove the superiority of one player vs. the other. In other words, if Joe can get THAT far ahead of Tom, then Joe must be the better player.

But as I suggested in my earlier post, that isn't the case at all. All the Alex/SVB match proved was that one GREAT player caught a gear which has a LOT to do with skill and a LOT to do with luck, before the other player did.

When the winner breaks argument surfaces, some say "Hey pool is pool, not football or baseball." Of course that is correct. But what is also correct is the football/baseball etc. are wildly popular and pro pool tournaments are languishing badly in America.

So, the STRUCTURE of pool matches should be VERY seriously analyzed and the glaring reality is that matches such as Gomez vs. Feijen was a joke where a world champion sat in his chair with nearly no chance to compete well...or poorly...or AT ALL!

Such a structure would be laughable so why reject the TRIED AND TRUE...especially when it OBVIOUSLY is not working.

As I said, gambling matches are a different animal and if the players want to see who has the most stamina or who can outdrink the other....fine.

But winner breaks in a professional touring sport is silly and NO similar structure exists in any major sport. And the REASON for that is the fans wouldn't put up with it! PERIOD! Fans want to see COMPETITION. They LOVE Hill/Hill Thrillers. And they DON'T want football games to end in the middle of the 2nd quarter if one team gets up 21-0.

All just IMHO and presented because I care about the low popularity of the sport in this country and think that ALL angles should be discussed in an effort to give the sport a boost.

Regards,
Jim
 
branpureza said:
most players do look uncomfortable when they're losing.

i think svb is awesome, on and off the table, but it seems like the going trend around this forum is to glorify him as the greatest whenever he happens to beat somebody and make excuses for him when he loses.

shane will get out-played on any given day just like all champions, nobody's that good.

except maybe efren...
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i agree completely.. i don't know why everyone thinks svb is the complete end all to the sport. this is in no way a knock to svb, he's a champion player and is nothing but good for the game but people are putting him up on a pedestal that he's not on yet. i'd say hes definatly in the top 10 best males in the country, but he's not on efren, alcano, wu and their level yet.
 
Dagwoodz said:
I was the poster who posted the results from Chattanooga...a few things though.

1st off, I never said alex put a 6 pack together, just that he won 6 racks in a row. Shane had opportunities at the table, but couldn't get comfortable and in gear. 2nd, if u dont think that a 6 pack is not anything special, then u obviously know something about the 10 ball break that most everybody doesn't. 3rd, as far as alternating breaks vs. Winner breaks, when u have 2 players who shoot at that speed, they WANT the ability to get in gear and put packages together. Alternating breaks do not give anyone the option to get in gear. I suppose that you would prefer that in straight pool the player who finishes out a rack has to give up the break shot to his opponent too if he broke that rack? There would be max runs of 28 balls. Whoop dee frikkin doo. That's how much sense standardizing alternating breaks sounds to me. As a neutral spectator, when I'm watching a matchup between two high level players, I want to see packs put together.


Just my $.02
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Thanks DAGS. But Alex broke 6 in a row and I am sure you wouldn't suggest that the break is of zero advantage to the breaker.

Would you suggest that in tennis, the winner of a game should keep serving?

Yes, continuous runs in straight pool were permitted. But there operative word is "were" since that game is virtually extint as far as fan interest is concerned. Do you want pro pool as it exists today to become extinct too?

As a neutral spectator, when I'm watching a matchup between two high level players, I want to see packs put together.
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Gotcha. Fair enough. But the votes are in. NO popular sport has a rule that would prevent one player/team from even getting a SINGLE turn to compete...which can happen with winner breaks and very nearly DID happen at the WPC.

And NO popular sport permits one player/team to maintain control of the ball indefinately.

I RESPECT what you like to see. But those in control of the rules of the POPULAR sports think that the vast majority of the fans want to see balanced competition where both sides get an equal shot.

Regards,
Jim
 
I was just talking to Alex a couple of days ago about this match and afterwards he told Shane:

"You know Lions are really lazy, mostly they just lie around and wait for their women to bring them food. But every once in a while they have to get up and kill everything around to show who is king of the jungle!"

I believe Alex is a better player than Shane, I believe it is close so sets can go either way but if they keep playing Alex will end up the winner.
 
TheMarsMan said:
I was just talking to Alex a couple of days ago about this match and afterwards he told Shane:

"You know Lions are really lazy, mostly they just lie around and wait for their women to bring them food. But every once in a while they have to get up and kill everything around to show who is king of the jungle!"

I believe Alex is a better player than Shane, I believe it is close so sets can go either way but if they keep playing Alex will end up the winner.
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Alex forgot to mention that lions have sex about 20-30 times a day when the female is in heat !!!

(-:
Jim
 
Wow the argument for alternate breaks in competition for the sake of the spectator is sounding really good. I LOVE watching Bustamante play but I was REALLY curious to see Cory play in that IPT 8 ball match where Francisco ran all those racks together.

The women seem to get on tv the most with their tournaments and it is almost always alternate breaks.

As far as the popularity of pool. I've noticed in other popular sports that after an athlete makes a good play they seem to show some sort of celebratory emotion. In pool you are lucky to see it once in the entire match. This is why I get so excited when I watch Jeanette Lee on TV. She really celebrates. Oh and no coincidence that she makes more money in pool than most.

So if the male pros are happy with the money they are making then keep doing what you are doing but if you want pool to get a little more popular you might want to liven it up on tv. How about that red haired speed pool player? Now HE is fun to watch.
 
av84fun said:
I RESPECT what you like to see. But those in control of the rules of the POPULAR sports think that the vast majority of the fans want to see balanced competition where both sides get an equal shot.

Regards,
Jim
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Pool is a popular sport (not really a sport its a game...open fire now). Very popular. Professional pool is not. The reasons for this are numerous. Who breaks and when has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of support for professional pool in the U.S.

IMO alternating break sucks and makes the game one of "Who makes the first mistake". Once a guy gets a couple of games stuck in an alternate break format all he can do is pray for his opponent to screw up and let him back in. The most he can win is 2 in a row and then he has to pray for another screw up.

What sells sports on TV and to fans is Drama. Pool ain't tennis, too play it like it is in the hopes of gaing some mythical widespread acceptance is silly. I have seen the best players catch a gear and look like they are going to run out forever. It is the most spectacular thing in the game to me to see that state of perfect performance achieved. To change it because "none of the other games are like that" just does not make any sense at all to me.
 
JCIN said:
Pool is a popular sport (not really a sport its a game...open fire now). Very popular. Professional pool is not. The reasons for this are numerous. Who breaks and when has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of support for professional pool in the U.S.

IMO alternating break sucks and makes the game one of "Who makes the first mistake". Once a guy gets a couple of games stuck in an alternate break format all he can do is pray for his opponent to screw up and let him back in. The most he can win is 2 in a row and then he has to pray for another screw up.

What sells sports on TV and to fans is Drama. Pool ain't tennis, too play it like it is in the hopes of gaing some mythical widespread acceptance is silly. I have seen the best players catch a gear and look like they are going to run out forever. It is the most spectacular thing in the game to me to see that state of perfect performance achieved. To change it because "none of the other games are like that" just does not make any sense at all to me.
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Tap tap tap
 
JCIN said:
Pool is a popular sport (not really a sport its a game...open fire now). Very popular. Professional pool is not. The reasons for this are numerous. Who breaks and when has absolutely nothing to do with the lack of support for professional pool in the U.S.

IMO alternating break sucks and makes the game one of "Who makes the first mistake". Once a guy gets a couple of games stuck in an alternate break format all he can do is pray for his opponent to screw up and let him back in. The most he can win is 2 in a row and then he has to pray for another screw up.

What sells sports on TV and to fans is Drama. Pool ain't tennis, too play it like it is in the hopes of gaing some mythical widespread acceptance is silly. I have seen the best players catch a gear and look like they are going to run out forever. It is the most spectacular thing in the game to me to see that state of perfect performance achieved. To change it because "none of the other games are like that" just does not make any sense at all to me.
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TAP TAP TAP....Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
branpureza said:
most players do look uncomfortable when they're losing.

i think svb is awesome, on and off the table, but it seems like the going trend around this forum is to glorify him as the greatest whenever he happens to beat somebody and make excuses for him when he loses.

shane will get out-played on any given day just like all champions, nobody's that good.

except maybe efren...
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It is true that at a world champion level, anyone can beat anyone else on any given day. Just ask the New England Patriots. Does it mean the Giants are a better team? Most people outside of the Giants nation would say no but they sure were the better team on that day...
 
Said it from the start, when Shane beat Alex at the DCC. Alex, in my opinion, will beat him in the long run. Those of you Shane glorifiers that thought it was a fluke that Alex beat him in less than two hours are giving excuses. Did Alex's camp offer excuses when he got beat at the Derby? Nope. He just followed him around and has beaten him consistently since then. I like Shane's game. I like Alex's better. For you bandwagon "Shane's the Man!" guys, I'm not knockin' your man at all. But, have you seen Alex in action? He's a little demon.
 
crawfish said:
Said it from the start, when Shane beat Alex at the DCC. Alex, in my opinion, will beat him in the long run. Those of you Shane glorifiers that thought it was a fluke that Alex beat him in less than two hours are giving excuses. Did Alex's camp offer excuses when he got beat at the Derby? Nope. He just followed him around and has beaten him consistently since then. I like Shane's game. I like Alex's better. For you bandwagon "Shane's the Man!" guys, I'm not knockin' your man at all. But, have you seen Alex in action? He's a little demon.
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Alex is a monster. He has been one for a long time.

Just food for thought....how many guys would lose to Alex 5 times in a row and still be willing to play him without adjusting? Shane is.

In that same vein how many guys lose 2 $5K sets and go get more money to play again...lose...and jump all over the guy at the next stop? Alex did.

Pretty strong on both of their parts.

They are not done yet. Those two will be going at it for a long time.

Also keep in mind that Shane has only been playing world class competion for a few years. Alex is supposed to be the favorite he has established himself as one of the best gamblers in the world. Both guys are a credit to the sport and my favorite 2 players to watch. I am just thankful I will be around to see them butt heads for the next 10 or 15 years.

Call me "Bandwagon" guy if you like but ask yourself how many guys in the world would even play Alex even? And send their own money in? That list won't be too long.

It doesnt have to be one or the other. Can't we just enjoy 2 of the best matching up?

<-----Driver of the bandwagon (for both guys).
 
JCIN said:
Alex is a monster. He has been one for a long time.

Just food for thought....how many guys would lose to Alex 5 times in a row and still be willing to play him without adjusting? Shane is.

In that same vein how many guys lose 2 $5K sets and go get more money to play again...lose...and jump all over the guy at the next stop? Alex did.

Pretty strong on both of their parts.

They are not done yet. Those two will be going at it for a long time.

Also keep in mind that Shane has only been playing world class competion for a few years. Alex is supposed to be the favorite he has established himself as one of the best gamblers in the world. Both guys are a credit to the sport and my favorite 2 players to watch. I am just thankful I will be around to see them butt heads for the next 10 or 15 years.

Call me "Bandwagon" guy if you like but ask yourself how many guys in the world would even play Alex even? And send their own money in? That list won't be too long.

It doesnt have to be one or the other. Can't we just enjoy 2 of the best matching up?

<-----Driver of the bandwagon (for both guys).
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Once again a great post!!!

(But I still Alex in this match-up)
 
TheMarsMan said:
I was just talking to Alex a couple of days ago about this match and afterwards he told Shane:

"You know Lions are really lazy, mostly they just lie around and wait for their women to bring them food. But every once in a while they have to get up and kill everything around to show who is king of the jungle!"

I believe Alex is a better player than Shane, I believe it is close so sets can go either way but if they keep playing Alex will end up the winner.
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Alex really goes around quoting PoolHall Junkies? I thought he had better material than that.:D
 
JCIN said:
Alex is a monster. He has been one for a long time.

Just food for thought....how many guys would lose to Alex 5 times in a row and still be willing to play him without adjusting? Shane is.

In that same vein how many guys lose 2 $5K sets and go get more money to play again...lose...and jump all over the guy at the next stop? Alex did.

Pretty strong on both of their parts.

They are not done yet. Those two will be going at it for a long time.

Also keep in mind that Shane has only been playing world class competion for a few years. Alex is supposed to be the favorite he has established himself as one of the best gamblers in the world. Both guys are a credit to the sport and my favorite 2 players to watch. I am just thankful I will be around to see them butt heads for the next 10 or 15 years.

Call me "Bandwagon" guy if you like but ask yourself how many guys in the world would even play Alex even? And send their own money in? That list won't be too long.

It doesnt have to be one or the other. Can't we just enjoy 2 of the best matching up?

<-----Driver of the bandwagon (for both guys).
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Fair 'nuff.
 
easy-e said:
Alex really goes around quoting PoolHall Junkies? I thought he had better material than that.:D
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Even if that wasn't a PHJ quote, it's still vintage Alex...he's a goofball of the Nth degree.

And Av84fun, as far as the winner breaks vs. Alt. breaks formats go, what happened between Shane and Alex was not a tournament match-up. They were playing a game to see who was the better shooter on the night. Which Alex was. I WILL conceed that an Alt. breaks format in TOURNAMENT would deffinitely create more excitement. Well, at least for the spectators; the pool players might get white hair or lose hair a little quicker from it. But that should be up to the individual tour running the event, not an overseeing body. If it happens to be a mens professional tour, great, would love to see it. But you're talking about a tournament, whereas I'm talking about Shane and Alex matching up.

I guess this would make it my $.10....
 
If you want to create a lot of drama for TV, I think they should have whoever is losing the set have the option to break. When the score is tied, they can flip a coin or lag. If it is a really tough breaking table and they are playing 10 ball the break might be a disadvantage so whoever is losing will have the option to pass the break.

This would end up with many Hill - Hill matches for a one game win it all match. This certainly isn't the best way to see who is the best player, but it would keep players in matches and make everything close for TV.
 
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