All Finishes Pros and Cons

louieatienza said:
Super-glue. I remember in 1989, a year before Stevie Ray Vaughn died, the then relatively new Fender custom shop made a SRV model. Since SRV didn't like the feel of finish on the necks, but they wanted to protect it, they used super glue so that the wood still felt "bare."
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Wow, that brought back memories.

I played a bare neck in college. Right around the same time. The inspiration? SRV.

In the case of using the cyano on the SRV Fender neck, it's really not so much a finish but more of a sealer, right?


Love this thread guys. Thanks. :thumbup::thumbup:


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Chopdoc said:
Wow, that brought back memories.

I played a bare neck in college. Right around the same time. The inspiration? SRV.

In the case of using the cyano on the SRV Fender neck, it's really not so much a finish but more of a sealer, right?

Love this thread guys. Thanks. :thumbup::thumbup:
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I suppose yes, more of a sealer. A lot more durable than shellac, which would probably deteriorate under a sweaty hand. I believe Fender did however dip their necks in some sealer.

I do feel a connection to SRV, being he died on my 18th birthday...
 
I can only speak for my own experience, but I have yet to see brittleness or yellowing with a CA finish. And it's most definitely not cheap. Compare the cost of ANY auto clear to ANY reputable brand CA & see which costs the most, ounce for ounce, gallon for gallon. As KJ & Chris did mention, CA puts off some nasty fumes. Comparing it to auto clear, however, is not exactly fair. Auto clear will kill you. CA will not, or at least according to the MSDS http://www.co.vermilion.il.us/MSDS/Tech Services/Loctite Super Glue.pdf. That said, proper ventilation is needed to be comfortable. I built a bench top finishing/sanding station with downdraft board immediately behind the sanding lathe. Not only does it collect all fumes, but also sucks away sanding dust. It has its own dust collector to pull the draft. The lathe is variable speed DC. Everything about the set-up is designed around a CA finish. Nothing about the system, including the CA, is cheap.

The system actually replaced my auto clear booth. For that I had a sealed booth with filtered downdraft to pull away fumes & over spray. There was a gear reduction DC motor that slowly spun the cue while I sprayed it. It was as safe as any other auto clear finishing booth I have seen in any other makers' shops, and it worked great. I finished many, many cues that way. My wife got pregnant & I was afraid that I would inadvertently compromise somebody's health, so I researched every imaginable finish, experimented with many, and in the end took a serious approach to CA. I did so based on MSDS's, ease of use, and quality of end product. Simply put, my CA finishes are on par with any other finish I have used, except way less dangerous to execute. I will not shave years from my life or endanger others around me for the purpose of a pool cue.

I actually find it hard to believe the wives tales & nay saying surrounding CA finishes. Perhaps before my time CA wasn't the quality it is today, or perhaps the naysayers didn't give enough effort in their experiments. Granted I am not using cheap, thin CA and applying it with paper towels in my back bedroom. I use quality stuff in a controlled environment that I designed specifically for finishing a cue. I used to keep an old sneaky around the shop that I had finished with CA. I'd let anybody whack it hard as they could with a shaft dowel, and never did that finish chip or crack or bubble.

I'm not here to say that CA is a better finish than anything else. I'm only here to defend it as a viable finish IN MY SHOP, with my own name behind my statements. So long as the finish is smooth, shiny, and durable, does it matter what it is? Should I or the cues I make be judged by the finish I choose, or rather by the end result? I have cues that sell for many thousands of dollars that have been finished with CA, auto clear, UV, and epoxy. Nobody knows the difference because they are all clear, clean, shiny, and tough. For me the decision was 100% health related, not cost. If that is a negative then I will live with it.
 
qbilder said:
I used to keep an old sneaky around the shop that I had finished with CA. I'd let anybody whack it hard as they could with a shaft dowel, and never did that finish chip or crack or bubble.
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Saw it first hand at Eric's shop. The little laugh that Eric had when I said CA was brittle let me know that I was about to get a lesson. A few weeks later and I'm using CA in the correct way, with the correct products and the correct ventilation / dust mitigation and getting fantastic results.

Erich
 
qbilder said:
I can only speak for my own experience, but I have yet to see brittleness or yellowing with a CA finish. And it's most definitely not cheap. Compare the cost of ANY auto clear to ANY reputable brand CA & see which costs the most, ounce for ounce, gallon for gallon. As KJ & Chris did mention, CA puts off some nasty fumes. Comparing it to auto clear, however, is not exactly fair. Auto clear will kill you. CA will not, or at least according to the MSDS http://www.co.vermilion.il.us/MSDS/Tech Services/Loctite Super Glue.pdf. That said, proper ventilation is needed to be comfortable. I built a bench top finishing/sanding station with downdraft board immediately behind the sanding lathe. Not only does it collect all fumes, but also sucks away sanding dust. It has its own dust collector to pull the draft. The lathe is variable speed DC. Everything about the set-up is designed around a CA finish. Nothing about the system, including the CA, is cheap.

The system actually replaced my auto clear booth. For that I had a sealed booth with filtered downdraft to pull away fumes & over spray. There was a gear reduction DC motor that slowly spun the cue while I sprayed it. It was as safe as any other auto clear finishing booth I have seen in any other makers' shops, and it worked great. I finished many, many cues that way. My wife got pregnant & I was afraid that I would inadvertently compromise somebody's health, so I researched every imaginable finish, experimented with many, and in the end took a serious approach to CA. I did so based on MSDS's, ease of use, and quality of end product. Simply put, my CA finishes are on par with any other finish I have used, except way less dangerous to execute. I will not shave years from my life or endanger others around me for the purpose of a pool cue.

I actually find it hard to believe the wives tales & nay saying surrounding CA finishes. Perhaps before my time CA wasn't the quality it is today, or perhaps the naysayers didn't give enough effort in their experiments. Granted I am not using cheap, thin CA and applying it with paper towels in my back bedroom. I use quality stuff in a controlled environment that I designed specifically for finishing a cue. I used to keep an old sneaky around the shop that I had finished with CA. I'd let anybody whack it hard as they could with a shaft dowel, and never did that finish chip or crack or bubble.

I'm not here to say that CA is a better finish than anything else. I'm only here to defend it as a viable finish IN MY SHOP, with my own name behind my statements. So long as the finish is smooth, shiny, and durable, does it matter what it is? Should I or the cues I make be judged by the finish I choose, or rather by the end result? I have cues that sell for many thousands of dollars that have been finished with CA, auto clear, UV, and epoxy. Nobody knows the difference because they are all clear, clean, shiny, and tough. For me the decision was 100% health related, not cost. If that is a negative then I will live with it.
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In general I always thought CA finish was crap and 99% of the cues i've seen with it pretty much sucked. However, I have one of your cues and i'm hell on it. The finish not only looked as good or better as any finish in the world when it was new, its held up as good as any other cues i play with.
 
LGSM3 said:
In general I always thought CA finish was crap and 99% of the cues i've seen with it pretty much sucked. However, I have one of your cues and i'm hell on it. The finish not only looked as good or better as any finish in the world when it was new, its held up as good as any other cues i play with.
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Says a lot coming from you. I appreciate that :) Beat the sh!t out of it. It'll take the abuse and stay pretty. I'm not scared. But I can't take 100% credit for the finish. Years ago when I was in process of switching, Fred Agnir gave me a product and a basic "how to". It changed the way I approach finishes and I will always be grateful for his sharing. Had he not, I may have quit making cues because my mind was made up to never spray auto clear again.

I take the same practical approach to finishes as I do everything else. Either it works or it doesn't. You & me may take completely different paths but so long as we arrive at the same place, who's to say one of us went the wrong way? You can't disparage anybody for using a different finish, different "A" joint method, threading collars vs. slip fit, etc. If the cue endures all the daily abuse of the game and the player is happy, then the cue maker did his/her job effectively.
 
LGSM3 said:
In general I always thought CA finish was crap and 99% of the cues i've seen with it pretty much sucked. However, I have one of your cues and i'm hell on it. The finish not only looked as good or better as any finish in the world when it was new, its held up as good as any other cues i play with.
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Crispy is the exception to the majority out there
you've seen it, i've seen it, we all have
the white bubbles, the chips, cracks.
my "cons" didnt include his ca & process,
just the shit that gets brought to me to fix

 
BHQ said:
Crispy is the exception to the majority out there
you've seen it, i've seen it, we all have
the white bubbles, the chips, cracks.
my "cons" didnt include his ca & process,
just the shit that gets brought to me to fix

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To be fair, I should probably clarify that nothing about my finish is anything like typical CA finishes, except in that it's technically a CA product. I don't use the same stuff you see in your repairs, nor do I use the same method of application. The stuff you are seeing is from some guy who poured super glue on a paper towel & smeared it on a spinning cue a thousand times until it was gooped on enough to sand. A HUMV & a Prius are technically both automobiles, but polar opposites in type and application. Same thing with my finish vs. the super glue on paper towel method. Both are technically CA finishes, but that's where the similarities end.
 
Not a cuemaker but interested, I have a couple of cues made by Bob Flynn at Denali cues.

He once detailed his finishing technique on this site, he uses a bunch of coats of thin CA and then finishes with TruOil. Not sure if he still uses that method or not but I've been happy with my cues so far. The TruOil seems to ding up easier than a lot of cues, but my understanding is that its also really easy to fix.

Does anyone else do this or does anyone have any insight on this kind of finish?
 
As we are talking about Super Glue finishes let me tell you what my son did for a little while with CA glue. He would put on super glue base coats then sand until smooth. Then wipe the cue with olive oil and go right over it with a few coats of super glue and repeat the process until he had a nice thick finish. That was some of the best super glue work I have ever seen. I told him I thought it was a bad idea and and that the finish would lift. But it held up. On all accounts I guess I was wrong even though it went against everything I thought about finishing principals.
 
Amazing thread.

Health and safety issues are so important and you guys risk exposures to many things in the woods, the adhesives, the finishes, and more.

Good to see intelligent consideration given to these matters.

A lot of you guys have backgrounds that have taught you a lot about these matters already. I am more concerned about those less experienced readers that might be just getting into this craft.

I think it becomes especially important if your shop is in or attached to your home. At that point it isn't just about you, it's your family.

It was said that CA can't kill you. I assure you it can. It's just less likely to do so.

IMHO the relative safety or danger in handling these materials is directly a product of the understanding and diligence of the handler. Be smart, know your materials, and don't take chances.

It's easy to know to avoid something if it smells bad or irritates you in some way. But don't be cavalier. You can be exposed to something many times with no ill effects then get unlucky and have a dangerous reaction.

Anything that irritates your airways can kill you.

Many neurotoxins are cumulative. You likely won't know it's a problem until it's too late.

Many of these things you are exposed to, and related substances, are in fact used as chemical weapons.

It's the thing you can't smell or don't know that is the most dangerous.


I'll butt out again in a moment. I just wanted to add for the new guys, especially the ones without experience in industry that are most certainly reading this thread to learn from the experienced guys: If you don't have the MSDS sheets for the materials you are using or you haven't taken some time to understand them, you are an accident waiting to happen. There is not a single cue worth your life or ending up blind crippled or crazy.



I learned something from you guys years ago that I have taught many doctors. We are taught to ask what patients do for a living in order to asses occupational risks and exposures. I make sure that every doctor I train also asks every patient about hobbies and pastimes.


I'll butt out now. Thanks for the amazing thread. :thumbup:

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cueman said:
As we are talking about Super Glue finishes let me tell you what my son did for a little while with CA glue. He would put on super glue base coats then sand until smooth. Then wipe the cue with olive oil and go right over it with a few coats of super glue and repeat the process until he had a nice thick finish. That was some of the best super glue work I have ever seen. I told him I thought it was a bad idea and and that the finish would lift. But it held up. On all accounts I guess I was wrong even though it went against everything I thought about finishing principals.
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That's interesting. And counter-intuitive as you indicate.

Makes me think something was happening chemically between the oil and the CA.


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qbilder said:
To be fair, I should probably clarify that nothing about my finish is anything like typical CA finishes, except in that it's technically a CA product. I don't use the same stuff you see in your repairs, nor do I use the same method of application. The stuff you are seeing is from some guy who poured super glue on a paper towel & smeared it on a spinning cue a thousand times until it was gooped on enough to sand. A HUMV & a Prius are technically both automobiles, but polar opposites in type and application. Same thing with my finish vs. the super glue on paper towel method. Both are technically CA finishes, but that's where the similarities end.
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Then the other CA finishes are inferior.
One person ( infamous for calling multiple cue makers ) once told me you use CA Poxy. A two-part CA. Got some just to see. Did not like it a bit .
 
Chopdoc said:
That's interesting. And counter-intuitive as you indicate.

Makes me think something was happening chemically between the oil and the CA.


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He was using the medium thickness CA and it went on much smoother over the olive oil than normal.
 
cueman said:
He was using the medium thickness CA and it went on much smoother over the olive oil than normal.
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Olive oil is also traditionally used in french polishing for the same reason, it helps the shellac move across the surface easier, and excess is "spirited off" afterwards..
 
louieatienza said:
Olive oil is also traditionally used in french polishing for the same reason, it helps the shellac move across the surface easier, and excess is "spirited off" afterwards..
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So it sounds like it is acting as a wetting agent.

https://chem.libretexts.org/Core/Ph...f_Matter/Properties_of_Liquids/Wetting_Agents

Wetting agents are substances that reduce the surface tension of water to allow it to spread drops onto a surface, increasing the spreading abilities of a liquid.
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JoeyInCali said:
Then the other CA finishes are inferior.
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That's probably true. My experience wasn't all that pleasant. There was a lot of time, research, trail & error before I settled in on something suitable for a cue finish. Most of the "glues" were disastrous, with a couple exceptions. The paper towel application is a disaster, too. I never could get it right, and it bothered me that the paper towel would smoke due to chemical reaction. There's just a whole lot that's so wrong with the typical CA finish. I had to take an approach completely free of traditional CA finish knowledge, or else I'd have gotten nowhere with it.


JoeyInCali said:
One person ( infamous for calling multiple cue makers ) once told me you use CA Poxy. A two-part CA. Got some just to see. Did not like it a bit .
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That's what you get for listening to that blowhard :rotflmao1: That guy takes a tiny crumb of info & next thing you know he's preaching an entire knowledge base around it. He has a well earned reputation for manipulating, twisting, playing folks against one another as if they are pawns in his personal game of chess. He does so with no regard to anybody but himself, for nothing but his own personal gain. I don't play those games. It drives me nuts when somebody says one thing to my face like we're friends, then immediately runs to say something else to people behind my back. That's the kind of crap my daughter dealt with in middle school, and it annoys the hell out of me to see grown ass men doing it. We're making cues, not living the "Game of Thrones".
 
Chopdoc said:
It was said that CA can't kill you. I assure you it can. It's just less likely to do so.
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I said that. Let me rephrase to correct myself. You'd have to be an idiot to die from CA. I can't imagine the amount of fumes you'd have to breathe in, and how badly it would hurt in order to cause significant damage or death. Minus that, I guess you'd have to breathe in the liquid and drown on it. The MSDS is pretty clear.
 
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