Alternate Break is a disease upon the game

Grilled Cheese

p.i.i.t.h.
Silver Member
From the title, you can see I loathe alternate break format.

Here's why:

1. I'm of the ideology that you're entitled to NOTHING. Alternate break entitles players to chances at the table they DID NOT EARN. Pool should have no hand outs.

In pool, you have two rights only: You have the right to lag. You have the right to remain at the table so long as you don't miss or lose the lag (or you play safe obviously).

Pool does have equal opportunity - at the lag. After that, you determine your opportunities. Everything is earned.

That's it.

The rest is tough cookies.

Every complaint about winner breaks is a poor excuse. Excuses that can be answered very easily with "next time" + "don't miss or F-up"

Alternate Break is in substance barely any more exciting than a postal match between two people playing the ghost.


2. It's awful for the fans / less exciting.

The big lie is that it's better for fans in that they can see their favorite super-stars play. This presumes of course that they are trying to avoid them getting blown out in winner breaks and not getting much table time for the fans. This is all about table time and appearances.

This is ludicrous and unsubstantiated.

Alternate break is like trench warfare. Grinding. It is slower and more tedious. Winner breaks is more exciting and generates more suspense.

In a race to 9, with the score 7-3 , with Alternate Break it's a done deal the vast majority of the time. Winner breaks it is not. A player can put up a 4, 5 or maybe even a 6 pack. This has happened. Keeping the outcome uncertain until the absolute very end. Alternate break is boring. Either one player pulls ahead at which point the outcome is almost completely certain, or they are neck and neck which is idiotic because that can also happen in winner breaks (see below) except you've removed the excitement of consecutive rack wins from the format.

3. Alternate Break supposedly produces closer races and results. The idea being without any one player stringing racks together without an answer -the score is closer and the match appears more competitive and therefore more interesting to fans.

Winner breaks has many hill-hill matches. Some go tit for tat the whole way. Other matches are blow outs. Others one player strings many racks, and the other answers with many racks.

This diversity in game flow is interesting. In a winner breaks tournament, you get it all. In Alternate Break, you get a grinding struggle all the time with the possibilities of: one player pulling ahead leading to an inevitable win, a tight match, and the much, much more rare one pulling a head, then the other player catching up.


4. Pool's natural structure accommodates winner breaks more than alternate break.

I've heard it argued that winning a rack in no way, shape or form implies or suggests a benefit or a bonus to the winner of the previous rack to allow them to break the next rack.

This is ridiculous and ignorant. Since forever, the competitive spirit, structure and nature of pool has been one that recognizes CONTINUITY. From 14.1 aka Straight Pool which was for decades and decades the game.


Conversely, using this argument's logic against itself - what favor, benefit or bonus to break should a LOSER of a rack get? To argue a winner of a previous rack has no merit to break the next, how can one argue that losing merits it?

Of course, they say it has nothing to do with merit, instead it's just setup so each player will get equal opportunity to play. Going back to #1 that there's no inherent equality in pool. Imagine 14.1 being played like that. Should each player get equal opportunity to run balls? They do, ONLY at the lag. Why then do the other games 8,9,10 ball have alternate break formats sometimes?

This suggests that because those games have a termination point which is the game-ball, that a natural breaking point in the game occurs where, simply because there's a reset to re-rack ALL the balls, there's an opening to give an opportunity to someone else to continue the inning. Allowing the other player to break. See #6


5. The break has a component of luck and randomness.

This is NOT Chess where the first move does come with a verifiable advantage. While in pool the break is advantageous - because of randomness and luck factor, it isn't treated as a guaranteed benefit to the breaker. Therefore, meriting the break after winning the previous rack isn't considered a lop-sided advantage, or unfair control given to the winner of the previous break.

A Chess player playing White cannot make the first move and come up dry, leaving Black full and instant advantage.

In Tennis, the serve is a clear advantage.


6. Pool is a turn based game, thought of as played in innings.

While "innings" technically don't matter by rule in games like 9-ball and have no meaning or significance, it is understood in pool that your turn ends only after you miss. In Alternate Break, your turn ends without you missing a shot or playing safe.

Some argue that doesn't matter. Your turn ended because the game ended. By that logic, why should another player's turn BEGIN because a new game begins?



Anyway - that's enough for now. I'd rather watch paint dry than watch Euro-style alternate break pool. Especially with all the slow pokes in the game. Beyond boring.
 

Petros Andrikop

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would not use such hard words but generally I agree, alternate break format is mainly boring most of the time, and in my opinion this has caused a general popularity downfall (at least to some extent) in Pro Pool.
I can understand the concerns of "not getting enough chances in winner break format due to the overall improvement of playing level", but since the 9 is usually racked on the spot nowdays and there's a box rule option that may be used for breaking (along with drey break rule) I find these concerns out of proportion.
 
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RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Alternate Break is a disease...

LightFoolishClingfish-small.gif
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Silver Member
A disease for which there is no cure!

I'm going to tell my One Pocket opponents the same thing and I'm going to go into detail about the disease for which there is no cure.
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know several people that will not play unless its alternate break.

I can see alternate break in 1hole but, any rotation the game should always been winner break.

Alternate break to me, is a form of weight given.

For example, the players I mentioned at first...., well, most of them do good to run "a" rack, much less put a "pack" together. Not to mention, most of them loose control of the CB way to often to make it to the money which means they would almost certainly never get a break (pun intended).

Winner break makes for a much more watchable matches. To think any different is nothing more than fear IMO.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
There was never anything wrong with Winner Breaks, Race to Eleven matches. That was how we played major tournaments for decades, until........

As the OP said watching a good player string racks was exciting and seeing his opponent answer with racks of his own was even more exciting. I personally witnessed players coming back from being down 9-2 and 10-3 on more than one occasion, and all the time the crowd was on the edge of their seats. No one ever got up and left during a match between two good players because we knew anything could happen. Many matches still went hill-hill and that last rack was tension packed.

None of this happens with the Alternate Break format and that's a shame imo. I can understand the use of alternate breaks in short matches like the Mosconi Cup, but for major singles events I feel that Winner Breaks should still be the format of choice. Put the nine on the spot, break from the box with no soft break and let 'em fly! :thumbup:
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don´t normally watch (rotation)pool that is alternative break format. Unless it is my friend who is playing.
It is just boring. I don´t mind if I have to play with alternative break. Still, I always like more winner breaks format.
I agree with OP with most of his opinions.
Please, don´t try compare to Tennis or other games. They are different games and alternative break is probably best for those. Period.
Winner breaks is best for Pool.
 

Buckzapper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ban alternate breaks, the jump cue and the measles ball. Stop your whining. You don't need a handicap just because your opponent can make 3 balls in a row. We'll give you a pool patch to sew on your jacket and stickers for your case.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The purpose of the lag is to determine who breaks first in a match that will be an odd number of racks in a match that could go hill-hill. Same in any format of pool that is a race. It works exactly the same in a race to 2 in straight pool where after the game ball the player who didn’t break in the first game breaks in the second one. It’s not to determine who is “entitled” and who isn’t. It’s a competition where one player plays against another - it has nothing to do with “entitlement” - that has no place in any kind of fair contest.

Having said that, I have no problem with winner breaks - you enter the tournament, those are the rules and you play with them. Matchroom has no problem either - the US Open will be played this way, with the potential for the kind of excitng matches that Jay referred to. I prefer alternate breaks though because it is fairer and purer - and it’s also more exciting for me to watch. Watching a player run x number of racks while his or her opponent is sitting and waiting is far less interesting. It takes more to run racks when you have to play a little cold and pause your game.

I don’t buy the OP’s logic for a second in terms of justifying why winner breaks is the nuts and alternate break is a game for fearful losers. I do though buy the philosophy that fear can come from a sense of entitlement.

Play whichever format you want. The tournament that should be (if the pool world gets itself in order) the second most prestigious is winner breaks races to 11. That’s ok, in fact it’s great as it respects the history and tradition of the US Open. The World Championship is and should continue to be alternate break as that is fair and pure, and respects the traditions of all sporting contests at the highest level. If you find that boring then you can go and watch a winner breaks cash race to 51 or whatever. I’ll happily watch that too and will add that those who say they wouldn’t watch an alternate break match like action far more than they like pool. That’s ok too.
 
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Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Winner breaks is the only way to play "rotation" games. Rack your own. Old school racks. I don't like the plastic, roll the balls into place racks.

Now everything is about figuring out a soft cut break...boring...boring...boring. When I was a kid, I enjoyed the BIG BREAKS, and run-outs from Archer, Strickland..Little David Howard....Varner...Buddy..Busta..Etc. It was so much more exciting. You could see some exciting swings!
 

Matt

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In other news, I like chocolate ice cream, so vanilla represents everything that is wrong with this world and anyone that likes it is an idiot.

Seriously, though...every time this topic comes up (it seems like at least once a year), I'm impressed by the amount of passion some folks have regarding the way other people play the game. I could understand if the title of this thread was "6 reasons I would prefer watching the pros play winner breaks", but no, it's "Alternate break is a disease upon the game".

Could it possibly be that a variety of games with variety of formats would appeal to a wider variety of people, both as players and spectators, and thus be considered a good thing for pool? Personally, I find watching rotation pool, in any format, about the least interesting form of the game to watch, but it doesn't bother me that other people enjoy it. I might suggest that they try watching some one pocket to see if the strategy and player interaction interests them, but it's okay if it turns out to not be their thing. The way I see it, the more people there are that find something they like about pool, the better our lives as pool players will be, whatever level we're at.
 

nine_ball6970

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In other news, I like chocolate ice cream, so vanilla represents everything that is wrong with this world and anyone that likes it is an idiot.

Seriously, though...every time this topic comes up (it seems like at least once a year), I'm impressed by the amount of passion some folks have regarding the way other people play the game. I could understand if the title of this thread was "6 reasons I would prefer watching the pros play winner breaks", but no, it's "Alternate break is a disease upon the game".

Could it possibly be that a variety of games with variety of formats would appeal to a wider variety of people, both as players and spectators, and thus be considered a good thing for pool? Personally, I find watching rotation pool, in any format, about the least interesting form of the game to watch, but it doesn't bother me that other people enjoy it. I might suggest that they try watching some one pocket to see if the strategy and player interaction interests them, but it's okay if it turns out to not be their thing. The way I see it, the more people there are that find something they like about pool, the better our lives as pool players will be, whatever level we're at.

I think it is pretty simple. A tournament has a set of rules. Either you decide to play in that tournament based on the rules being used or you do not. I do not think your opinion matters much if you are spectating and not an entrant.

It seems to me as the best player wins matches more often in alternate break than in winner breaks. The lack of packages gives the more consistent/better player an advantage when they are able to break the same number of times.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I agree with most of the original post, and as a fan, I prefer winner breaks. It works best in a perfect world, which, by the way, Pat Fleming provided in the just completed International 9-ball Open in the form of having a neutral racker and a rule that ensured that the break had to be hit hard. Neutral racker is something we always get at the best event on the pool calendar, the Mosconi Cup. Unfortunately, the "perfect" world we get at these two events represent the exception, not the rule.

Yes, "rack your own" is the main reason that alternate break is in vogue in so many circles. The "rack your own" era has given rise to a substantial contingent of rack mechanics who exploit the system in a way that, to me, seems unethical. Some players see it as unethical, others don't, and that's understandable. Who can blame those who learn how to fix the rack given that they must increasingly face off against opponents who know how? The situation, in my view, is spiraling out of control.

Being a good breaker should matter, but being a good racker should not. Unfortunately, both matter a lot today in the very broken world of pro pool.

Alternate break is a sign of the times, and while I don't prefer it, I'm fully on board with those that see it as necessary.

Neutral racker is the solution. Matchroom knows it, Pat Fleming knows it, but few seem to get it.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rotation games are the disease themselves
Why do always knock ANYTHING that's not "BILLIARDS"? I tried watching one of the 1rail(WTF????) videos you linked to and didn't last 15seconds. Like watching snails f^&k. Just you 'cause you don't like(or can't play) pool is no reason to take shots at it at every turn. If all you play is your lily-white billiards why even post on a pool thread?
 

Texas Carom Club

9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
Why do always knock ANYTHING that's not "BILLIARDS"? I tried watching one of the 1rail(WTF????) videos you linked to and didn't last 15seconds. Like watching snails f^&k. Just you 'cause you don't like(or can't play) pool is no reason to take shots at it at every turn. If all you play is your lily-white billiards why even post on a pool thread?

Never heard me knock snooker 1pkt 14.1 english billiards or banks have you

Would you not call those BILLIARDS??

No you havent cause i do enjoy them

where do you assume i only play carom

Every turn i get boy to make such assumptions clearly without knowning a damn thing about me is quite

Pool player ish of you
 
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