Am I correcting for squirt without knowing it?

[Sloppy Pockets]

I played most of my life without ever hearing the word "squirt", and I never noticed it in my shotmaking. I knew about spin, throw and swerve (although I never heard it called that), but not squirt.

So now, I've been paying careful attention to this as I play, but I never see any evidence of it. Now, I KNOW that the CB is squirting when I hit it off center because all the physicists tell me it has to, so I'm not denying it. I just don't ever see it happen.

For example, I can place a striped ball on the foot spot and take careful aim at the diamond on the opposite rail, hit center ball, and the ball will roll straight to the diamond and straight back to the cue tip. I can then put one tip of left english and aim at the same diamond and the spinning ball will go to the diamond and then come off the rail at an angle into the side pocket. Same as with a tip of right, except the ball goes to my right into the corner pocket.

In all three cases, I am aiming directly at the diamond and I can see it hit exactly on the diamond I aimed at. Using the striped ball lets me easily see that I am putting a lot of spin on the ball, plus I look at the ball and see that my chalk mark is just inside the stripe. And the effect off the rail makes it pretty obvious.

If I understand this squirt thing correctly, if I am aiming directly at the diamond, I should see the CB hit to the right of it when I am using left english and to the left when I am using right english. Am I completely misunderstanding the idea of squirt, or am I somehow unconsciously correcting for it with each shot by pivoting without realizing it?

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Remember, Sloppy, a bad stroke is often seen as cue ball squirt, and vice versa. :smile:

P.S. When my first son was born I got him a little tee-shirt with, "My Daddy calls me his little squirt!", printed on the front. My wife, at the time, got him one that read, "I tore my Mommy a new one!"

 

[naji]

I played most of my life without ever hearing the word "squirt", and I never noticed it in my shotmaking. I knew about spin, throw and swerve (although I never heard it called that), but not squirt.

So now, I've been paying careful attention to this as I play, but I never see any evidence of it. Now, I KNOW that the CB is squirting when I hit it off center because all the physicists tell me it has to, so I'm not denying it. I just don't ever see it happen.

For example, I can place a striped ball on the foot spot and take careful aim at the diamond on the opposite rail, hit center ball, and the ball will roll straight to the diamond and straight back to the cue tip. I can then put one tip of left english and aim at the same diamond and the spinning ball will go to the diamond and then come off the rail at an angle into the side pocket. Same as with a tip of right, except the ball goes to my right into the corner pocket.

In all three cases, I am aiming directly at the diamond and I can see it hit exactly on the diamond I aimed at. Using the striped ball lets me easily see that I am putting a lot of spin on the ball, plus I look at the ball and see that my chalk mark is just inside the stripe. And the effect off the rail makes it pretty obvious.

If I understand this squirt thing correctly, if I am aiming directly at the diamond, I should see the CB hit to the right of it when I am using left english and to the left when I am using right english. Am I completely misunderstanding the idea of squirt, or am I somehow unconsciously correcting for it with each shot by pivoting without realizing it?

Missing information, how hard you hit, how long is your bridge, how much elevation, is there cue deflection???

 

[PGHteacher]

Squirt is hard to see with the naked eye; especially from a crouch, even more so if you have an LD shaft. There is also squerve.

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/new/NVB-70.htm

 

[HollyWood]

Maybe Cory and John's Tape will get you an answer??

Cory Deul and John Schmidt disscussed this- on the Free Tar - interview( with John and Cory) - they then plaed soem games - 1-pocket 10 etc. The whole interview was full oF knowedge..mark

 

[genomachino]

Correct..........

I played most of my life without ever hearing the word "squirt", and I never noticed it in my shotmaking. I knew about spin, throw and swerve (although I never heard it called that), but not squirt.

So now, I've been paying careful attention to this as I play, but I never see any evidence of it. Now, I KNOW that the CB is squirting when I hit it off center because all the physicists tell me it has to, so I'm not denying it. I just don't ever see it happen.

For example, I can place a striped ball on the foot spot and take careful aim at the diamond on the opposite rail, hit center ball, and the ball will roll straight to the diamond and straight back to the cue tip. I can then put one tip of left english and aim at the same diamond and the spinning ball will go to the diamond and then come off the rail at an angle into the side pocket. Same as with a tip of right, except the ball goes to my right into the corner pocket.

In all three cases, I am aiming directly at the diamond and I can see it hit exactly on the diamond I aimed at. Using the striped ball lets me easily see that I am putting a lot of spin on the ball, plus I look at the ball and see that my chalk mark is just inside the stripe. And the effect off the rail makes it pretty obvious.

If I understand this squirt thing correctly, if I am aiming directly at the diamond, I should see the CB hit to the right of it when I am using left english and to the left when I am using right english. Am I completely misunderstanding the idea of squirt, or am I somehow unconsciously correcting for it with each shot by pivoting without realizing it?

And the squirt will be more if you hit it harder or with more English or both.

This is why so many players have switched to these low deflection shafts

The squirt is alot less. You can shoot alot closer to the real am. Not as much adjusting.

With a normal maple shaft if your not thinking about the squirt and knowingly adjusting your probably missing some shots because of the variance. of the squirt. Even knowing your missing some shots. It can be alot of adjusting.

This is why a person that first picks up a low deflection shaft doesn't like it the first time they shoot with it. They miss shots that they normally make. That's because they were naturally adjusting to the squirt to a certain extent with the maple shaft.

I hope this helps. Most players that play at a higher level and have a low deflection shaft can help you learn how to shoot with one if you want to try one.

This will eliminate alot of guessing and squirting and alot of missed balls.

.

 

[scratchs]

Remember, Sloppy, a bad stroke is often seen as cue ball squirt, and vice versa. :smile:

P.S. When my first son was born I got him a little tee-shirt with, "My Daddy calls me his little squirt!", printed on the front. My wife, at the time, got him one that read, "I tore my Mommy a new one!"

I wondered,,,often,,about those sayings

 

[12squared]

I played most of my life without ever hearing the word "squirt", and I never noticed it in my shotmaking. I knew about spin, throw and swerve (although I never heard it called that), but not squirt...

For example, I can place a striped ball on the foot spot and take careful aim at the diamond on the opposite rail, hit center ball, and the ball will roll straight to the diamond and straight back to the cue tip. I can then put one tip of left english and aim at the same diamond and the spinning ball will go to the diamond and then come off the rail at an angle into the side pocket. Same as with a tip of right, except the ball goes to my right into the corner pocket...

Good question, I'll try to put my "spin" on it:

If you load the cue ball up with max english, like 3:00 or 9:00 and hit it hard, you should see what has been talked about. But this will not be true if you are using backhand english to apply the spin, that is self correcting somewhat because you are now pointing the cue to a different target. If you stroke a ball properly and hit it with the right speed, the cue ball will squirt (or throw, or deflect) but will self correct before hitting the target, so that might be what you're experiencing. By hitting the shot hard it would not have the time to self correct and you should see a different result.

If you are not using a LD shaft, try one. You would see the difference immediately hitting it w/your self correcting speed because your spin shots would not deflect/squirt as much so you would miss your target because of swerve. That's why I didn't switch to a LD defection shaft, I use too much english and am used to the way a normal shaft deflects.

One more thing, it has been my experience that 1 tip of english would not take you to the side pocket, it would spread less than that...but that's another thread .

Hope this helps a little.

Dave

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Missing information, how hard you hit, how long is your bridge, how much elevation, is there cue deflection???

Cue as level as I can get it without resting against the rail, medium-fast speed stroke (maybe equivalent to 2-3 table lengths). Besides, I thought that CB squirt is the same regardless of shot speed and is only proportional to tip offset?

A shot like this is too short and hard to have much swerve effect IMO, but I'm not ruling that out.

Cue deflection? Isn't that like a near-miscue? If so, no, just a clean, solid hit on the CB. The cue end splits the foot spot at the end of the stroke, with about 4-6" of follow through, so the stroke is pretty straight.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Am I completely misunderstanding the idea of squirt, or am I somehow unconsciously correcting for it with each shot by pivoting without realizing it?

If you've never consciously corrected for squirt, then you've definitely unconsciously corrected for it, or you'd miss most sidespin shots.

It's impossible to tell from your description of this particular shot if swerve is exactly cancelling the squirt, but that doesn't happen as often as people think anyway. You're probably unconsciously compensating in this case too.

pj
chgo

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Good question, I'll try to put my "spin" on it:

If you load the cue ball up with max english, like 3:00 or 9:00 and hit it hard, you should see what has been talked about. But this will not be true if you are using backhand english to apply the spin, that is self correcting somewhat because you are now pointing the cue to a different target. If you stroke a ball properly and hit it with the right speed, the cue ball will squirt (or throw, or deflect) but will self correct before hitting the target, so that might be what you're experiencing. By hitting the shot hard it would not have the time to self correct and you should see a different result.

If you are not using a LD shaft, try one. You would see the difference immediately hitting it w/your self correcting speed because your spin shots would not deflect/squirt as much so you would miss your target because of swerve. That's why I didn't switch to a LD defection shaft, I use too much english and am used to the way a normal shaft deflects.

One more thing, it has been my experience that 1 tip of english would not take you to the side pocket, it would spread less than that...but that's another thread .

Hope this helps a little.

Dave

Some of this is making sense to me. I've always thought I use parallel english, and I usually don't use that much in a game at any rate. Just a touch to get the CB to come off the rail at a slightly better angle. Maybe I'm wrong and I am using BHE?

I am actually aiming the center of the tip at at the edge of the stripe because I've been told that that is near the miscue limit, but the chalk mark always ends up about one tip away from center because of the contact point actually being off to the inside of the tip. That may be considered more than one tip offset, but I make the ball in the pocket every time unless I am lazy and stroke poorly and miscue.

This happens with all my cues, which are just one-piece cues (two Dufferins and two Lucasis), so I'm not using an LD shaft or anything, although I am not averse to trying one.

 

[12squared]

Besides, I thought that CB squirt is the same regardless of shot speed and is only proportional to tip offset?

The squirt is basically the same regardless of speed, but it takes longer for it to spin back the harder you hit it. So when you hit it slow it's not noticed as much.

Are you hitting the cueball from the spot to the short rail (length of the table) or the shorter direction? Just curious.

If I were you I would stop thinking about all this stuff since it appears you hit your target regardless of what spin you put on the ball. Why mess with it?

Dave

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

The squirt is basically the same regardless of speed, but it takes longer for it to spin back the harder you hit it. So when you hit it slow it's not noticed as much.

Are you hitting the cueball from the spot to the short rail (length of the table) or the shorter direction? Just curious.

Dave

Cross table (shorter direction). Still, I think I would see the ball miss the diamond by at least a little bit.

Maybe I'll break out the video camera and check it out. Seems to be very helpful in diagnosing these things in the absence of a knowledgable instructor in the room watching.

 

[12squared]

Cross table (shorter direction). Still, I think I would see the ball miss the diamond by at least a little bit.

Maybe I'll break out the video camera and check it out. Seems to be very helpful in diagnosing these things in the absence of a knowledgable instructor in the room watching.

You're right, you should see a little movement, but try it length wise hard, it's a better test because it will travel further off line.

 

[Scott Lee]

Sloppy Pockets...Squirt and deflection are basically the same thing. We instructors like to describe squirt as what happens with the CB...and deflection as what happens with the cuestick. Swerve means the cuestick is at least slightly elevated (with swerve the CB will curve outwards, and then curve back towards the shot line...a kind of small masse' effect). You're correct that in close shots (less than 2 feet between CB & OB) there will be very little squirt/deflection...unless you are way out on the edge of the CB with your tip, or you're shooting REALLY hard. On longer shots you will, as PJ mentioned, be unconsciously adjusting for squirt, or you'd miss long shots that you shoot with any serious sidespin and/or speed. I agree with Dave that you're probably overthinking this issue.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Cue as level as I can get it without resting against the rail, medium-fast speed stroke (maybe equivalent to 2-3 table lengths). Besides, I thought that CB squirt is the same regardless of shot speed and is only proportional to tip offset?

A shot like this is too short and hard to have much swerve effect IMO, but I'm not ruling that out.

Cue deflection? Isn't that like a near-miscue? If so, no, just a clean, solid hit on the CB. The cue end splits the foot spot at the end of the stroke, with about 4-6" of follow through, so the stroke is pretty straight.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I agree with Dave that you're probably overthinking this issue.

LOL! Well, that's what happens when you read a zillion AZB posts, you start to doubt everything.:shakehead:

Actually, I got to thinking about this from following all 97 thousands posts on the JS/CD aiming thread. Mr. Wiley says he uses intentional squirt without spin to help increase the margin of error in pocketing cut shots.

Not only do I not understand how this is possible, I also don't understand how you can hit the CB 1/2 tip off center and not put spin on it. At least I can't. What's your take on this?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

LOL! Well, that's what happens when you read a zillion AZB posts, you start to doubt everything.:shakehead:

Actually, I got to thinking about this from following all 97 thousands posts on the JS/CD aiming thread. Mr. Wiley says he uses intentional squirt without spin to help increase the margin of error in pocketing cut shots.

Not only do I not understand how this is possible, I also don't understand how you can hit the CB 1/2 tip off center and not put spin on it. At least I can't. What's your take on this?

Of course you can't hit offcenter without spinning the CB (this has been pointed out to CJ). I think he means that sidespin isn't the point of that technique, but just a (more or less minor) side effect.

pj
chgo

 

[Johnnyt]

I never really heard or knew about squirt until about 25 years after I started playing, yet I ran many 60, 70, and 80's in 14.1. I think when you play enough and keep missing shots the same way that you adjust to it even though you really don't know why you have to do it. It's like my mind talks to me when i'm getting down on a shot that I almost hit the point or miss the shot the same way each time I shoot it, so I make the adjustment w/o really knowing it. Johnnyt

 

[TheThaiger]

I never really heard or knew about squirt until about 25 years after I started playing, yet I ran many 60, 70, and 80's in 14.1. I think when you play enough and keep missing shots the same way that you adjust to it even though you really don't know why you have to do it. It's like my mind talks to me when i'm getting down on a shot that I almost hit the point or miss the shot the same way each time I shoot it, so I make the adjustment w/o really knowing it. Johnnyt

Agreed. This is why AZB is ruinous to pool players the world over.

 

[TheThaiger]

Some of this is making sense to me. I've always thought I use parallel english, and I usually don't use that much in a game at any rate. Just a touch to get the CB to come off the rail at a slightly better angle. Maybe I'm wrong and I am using BHE?

I am actually aiming the center of the tip at at the edge of the stripe because I've been told that that is near the miscue limit, but the chalk mark always ends up about one tip away from center because of the contact point actually being off to the inside of the tip. That may be considered more than one tip offset, but I make the ball in the pocket every time unless I am lazy and stroke poorly and miscue.

This happens with all my cues, which are just one-piece cues (two Dufferins and two Lucasis), so I'm not using an LD shaft or anything, although I am not averse to trying one.

Do Lucasi make one piece cues?