if you play pool that good you dont need to play in a amateur tournament
stick to the open tournaments you got more compitition
stick to the open tournaments you got more compitition
Amateur events are killing the sport of pool
- Thread starter B_White
- Start date
Another One
Another one that really bothers me is these womens events! Why would the women not want to play in opens?......of course some of them get really good and start playing in the open events.:shocked2:
Ray
ps . and those Jr events are killing me too!
JK
B_White said:
Another one that really bothers me is these womens events! Why would the women not want to play in opens?......of course some of them get really good and start playing in the open events.:shocked2:
Ray
ps . and those Jr events are killing me too!
JK
The prob. is that more and more of these am. events are poping up. Just wait...... pretty soon there will be only a few open events a year and the rest am. events. Watch.................. And also one fact noone realizes, in every sport in the world you have 2 classifications, Am. and pro. If your not one then your the other. If a player is not a pro then he should play in any am. event, regardless of skill level!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm pretty sure Tiger Woods was as good as many pros we he won The U.S. AM., but they still let him play because its based on classification not skill. Eventually the Am. events will all but elliminate the open ones.
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Well if you let pros play in the amateur events then the amateurs will stop playing and you wont have any of either. In a perfect world there would be stair stepped levels of competition like in most organized games and sports with a set path for advancement. Maybe someday.B_White said:
The best way IMO is to have a central list of major open events and have a rule saying something like "If you have finished X or higher in any of the listed events in the last 5 years you are considered a pro" I agree it sucks but most guys will only donate for so long. You are still going to get guys who play pro speed but at least you have something that isn't completely arbitrary. I am sure TD's like Mike Janis have a method and reason for who they include and exclude with the main goal being to grow the overall participation. Their ball game, their rules.
I understand BWhiz's side too....how is it fair to let Chew (Derek Leonard) play in an amateur event but then tell Brian "no"?
I kinda see both sides of this... right now I am too good to play against the real amateurs.. but not good enough to be calling out Shane... so where do I fit in??
do we need a middle class?
I crush the local talent to the point where I'm not allowed to play in alot of small local tourneys.
but.. I'm not quite ready for the US open..
I agree with the idea of a structured system where you have to earn your way to the next level...
I see 4 or 5 levels... you have to win a level 1 event to be allowed to play in a level 2 event. you have to win a level 2 event to be allowed to play in a level 3 event... ect..
I think the BCA would be the best body to organize this... but I won't hold my breath...
do we need a middle class?
I crush the local talent to the point where I'm not allowed to play in alot of small local tourneys.
but.. I'm not quite ready for the US open..
I agree with the idea of a structured system where you have to earn your way to the next level...
I see 4 or 5 levels... you have to win a level 1 event to be allowed to play in a level 2 event. you have to win a level 2 event to be allowed to play in a level 3 event... ect..
I think the BCA would be the best body to organize this... but I won't hold my breath...
as far as the title of the thread... "Amateur events are killing the sport of pool"
Amateur's ARE POOL!!!!!!!!! without amateur's you have no cue makers.. you have no table makers.. no leagues.... no pool....
as far as the business end of things.. amateurs are all there is... without that pool dies..period...
Amateur's ARE POOL!!!!!!!!! without amateur's you have no cue makers.. you have no table makers.. no leagues.... no pool....
as far as the business end of things.. amateurs are all there is... without that pool dies..period...
At the bottom of the pro level.....work your way up:grin:softshot said:
Seriously that is what's going to push you to be able to call out SVB.
If your crushing AM. players in AM. events then you're hurting those tourney's as many of the am. players will stop coming. I other words those am. player feel the same way you do about playing in a open/pro event. That being they don't have a chance so why bother.
The key IMO is that you must want to improve and push yourself even if , at first, it doesn't look like you have a chance.
I've never been banned from a tourney because I suck
so if I ever did get banned I think I'd be happy and start taking on the new challenge. As for some sort of rating system....How would you and who would do that?
One problem is that many good players DON'T play in "events" at all (you know the guys that don't want to be known) so how do you rate them?
The only way I know is that a TD needs to have the discretion to ban people that they know are much better players.
Just my .02
My point is that i love to play. More importantly i love to compete and more times than not i'm not allowed to do so. I spent years becoming a very good player and it is all for not. And my main point was like it or not, more am. events = less open events. 1 year ago 95% open 5% am., now prob. 65% 35% in southeast, 5 years from now 80% am. 20% open................get it? Not speaking of leagues such as APA< BCA< VNEA but with tours hosting Am. events.
I cannot compete on a pro level, or an open level tourney. I am dead money in most of the tourneys I enter. I keep paying and I keep playing. I enter tourneys where I have virtually no shot at winning. I am competetive and I want to improve my game. I play my best pool in these tourneys and the personal satisfaction I get from playing with the best in the area is great.
How is it that I am ruining pool? What is it about my entry fee adding to the size of the prize money (which I won't see) that is bad for the sport?
Is it that I am buying food and drink at the venue, helping them stay afloat that is a detriment?
Maybe I should keep my money in my pocket....
If you think it will help the sport...
Banger
How is it that I am ruining pool? What is it about my entry fee adding to the size of the prize money (which I won't see) that is bad for the sport?
Is it that I am buying food and drink at the venue, helping them stay afloat that is a detriment?
Maybe I should keep my money in my pocket....
If you think it will help the sport...
Banger
B_White said:
I thought about it, you are a tard.
here is a quote from mike janis
"at this time it is still my intention to boost the Amateur events and eventually do away with the Open tour. The only problem is the complete context is missing about the conversation and the thought process behind it. The goal I stated above will only come into play once there is an established system for players to become professionals. I have high hopes for the state of our sport and I am trying my best to position the Viking 9-Ball Tour to be a part of what is to come. Rest assured that the Open events will remain in effect until the sport has that system."
i competely agree with b_white and i am someone that travels to play in as many open tournaments as possible regardless of the field, actually the tougher the field the more i like it, but it would be nice to have a local tour where i could consistently play. Cmon everyone knows a lot of the people that win the amateur tourneys can flat out play, and in a race to 5 just about anyone can beat anyone, so to say "i wont play if he's playing" is really weak and shows no heart in my opinion
"at this time it is still my intention to boost the Amateur events and eventually do away with the Open tour. The only problem is the complete context is missing about the conversation and the thought process behind it. The goal I stated above will only come into play once there is an established system for players to become professionals. I have high hopes for the state of our sport and I am trying my best to position the Viking 9-Ball Tour to be a part of what is to come. Rest assured that the Open events will remain in effect until the sport has that system."
i competely agree with b_white and i am someone that travels to play in as many open tournaments as possible regardless of the field, actually the tougher the field the more i like it, but it would be nice to have a local tour where i could consistently play. Cmon everyone knows a lot of the people that win the amateur tourneys can flat out play, and in a race to 5 just about anyone can beat anyone, so to say "i wont play if he's playing" is really weak and shows no heart in my opinion
very true!jamesroberts said:
When I lived in Tulsa they rated you 5 to 10.
5 speed
6 speed
7 speed
8 speed
etc.
Most of the smaller weekly tourneys are handicapped, for example 6 and under only, or 8 and under only so they try and have something for everyone, it's hard to equalize things.
Problem is I know 9 speeds who never play over a 6 so they can hit all the little tourneys.
5 speed
6 speed
7 speed
8 speed
etc.
Most of the smaller weekly tourneys are handicapped, for example 6 and under only, or 8 and under only so they try and have something for everyone, it's hard to equalize things.
Problem is I know 9 speeds who never play over a 6 so they can hit all the little tourneys.
I agree that there is a definite area between amateur and pro. I am unsure of how many players actually fall into this category.
A promoter has these options:
a. Promote one open tournament with a smaller field because of talent
b Promote two different divisions (Like the Viking tour)
c. Promote an amateur tournament keeping certain players out
Many times the promoter has to sastify the venue with bodies, thus
leaning toward the amateur side with more players.
A promoter has these options:
a. Promote one open tournament with a smaller field because of talent
b Promote two different divisions (Like the Viking tour)
c. Promote an amateur tournament keeping certain players out
Many times the promoter has to sastify the venue with bodies, thus
leaning toward the amateur side with more players.
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PKM said:
I don't see this.
Take hockey as an example. The NHL is the top tier professional league, but there are many European leagues that pay well and game is played at a very high level. In North America we have the AHL, ECHL, and a few others as a second / third tier professional game.
In baseball the Major Leaque is on top of the heap, followed by AAA, AA, then A ball, all paid professionals but with different skill levels.
In golf we have the PGA Tour as the top tier, although the European Tour is not far behind in many respects. Then there is the Asian Tour, the junior-PGA-whateveritscalledtoday-tour (Nike/Nationwide/???), the Canadian Tour, etc as lower tiers where professional golfers can compete and improve.
Having only 2 tiers in pool (one of which is called "amateur" but still pays out cash?) is less than ideal imo.
Dave
I think that the points of the matter are that there are really now only two types of pool, much like golf, which has the pga tour, and the pga. The problem is that there are no guidelines for pool. We either need more levels, or a strict and fair ranking system to determine pros. And as for amateurs being pool, it's not the same thing. If your dream is to be a great league player, this isn't the thread for you. This is a discussion about whether or not the amateur events are hurting the only tournaments (open) for some of us who cannot quite compete in true pro events. What I'm saying is that the vast majority of amateurs, like in golf, drive the main economy of the game, but there needs to be two seperate entities, so that the weaker players can compete, but the better players still have their own tournaments. It is just sad to see the only current avenue for players to become true professionals is seemingly starting to close, and the tourneys that are replacing them not only take the opportunity away, but ban some of them from the only competition that is available to them. jmho-Matt
This issue
is a 2 edged sword and arguments for both sides. Pool is not classed right.
There is no definition for the 'semi pro' category of players. Baseball has A, AA, AAA, and the pro levels. They advance in baseball when they 'excel' in the lower level. Pool should be the same way.
If a player wins 5 local tournaments within 18 months, they go up a level.
If a player wins 3 regional tournaments, they go up a level.
If a player wins a National tournament, they advance.
That is just a short example, for illustrative purposes only, but Pool needs something like this.
The other thing is the disparity that exists between a person's normal handicap vs. what the player is rated, moneywise. Many times, a person's handicap in leagues is dependent on the level of competition they compete against. Consider a regular league vs. an advanced league. Money ratings, as far as I know, have always been the truest rating for skill of a player.
Take myself, for example, I have always been known for being a better money player than a tournament player. There are several players rated the same in league or higher that would not match up with me for money.
Likewise, several rated high in league can not play very well for money.
League and tournaments is a different beast than being a money player, and each has to be conquered individually to be a great all around player.
It's like being married twice. You may have loved each very much, but it is not the same.
is a 2 edged sword and arguments for both sides. Pool is not classed right.
There is no definition for the 'semi pro' category of players. Baseball has A, AA, AAA, and the pro levels. They advance in baseball when they 'excel' in the lower level. Pool should be the same way.
If a player wins 5 local tournaments within 18 months, they go up a level.
If a player wins 3 regional tournaments, they go up a level.
If a player wins a National tournament, they advance.
That is just a short example, for illustrative purposes only, but Pool needs something like this.
The other thing is the disparity that exists between a person's normal handicap vs. what the player is rated, moneywise. Many times, a person's handicap in leagues is dependent on the level of competition they compete against. Consider a regular league vs. an advanced league. Money ratings, as far as I know, have always been the truest rating for skill of a player.
Take myself, for example, I have always been known for being a better money player than a tournament player. There are several players rated the same in league or higher that would not match up with me for money.
Likewise, several rated high in league can not play very well for money.
League and tournaments is a different beast than being a money player, and each has to be conquered individually to be a great all around player.
It's like being married twice. You may have loved each very much, but it is not the same.
Just a thought...
I have been reading this forum and everyone has been saying the same things. Why can't the people in the thread form a sub-body and develop the format and rules to which the players adhere.
I was a barbox banger for many years. In the fall of '05 I was asked to join an APA team. I was honored to be asked and started playing more. When league started up I was a 4, I went to a 3 for half the session. I wanted to be better, I started reading and asking questions, watching videos. I am now a 6 and also a league operator for 14.1 in my area. I took 5 players to Alantic City Billiards to play in the national finals. We all lost, badly. We are going again next year. Why, I love pool and everything about it.
The point is, a guy like me can play and learn and be as good as he can be is a personal goal. I have many accomplishments on a personal level that I am proud of and will have many more. My best was in '06 I went to J'ville and won the regional, 6 straight wins, no losses. Moved from a 4 to a 5 and went to Vegas for the singles. Lost my ass, but I lost because of me not the other players.
I love pool, if you guys want to form a governing body for this level of in-betweens, count me in.
I have been reading this forum and everyone has been saying the same things. Why can't the people in the thread form a sub-body and develop the format and rules to which the players adhere.
I was a barbox banger for many years. In the fall of '05 I was asked to join an APA team. I was honored to be asked and started playing more. When league started up I was a 4, I went to a 3 for half the session. I wanted to be better, I started reading and asking questions, watching videos. I am now a 6 and also a league operator for 14.1 in my area. I took 5 players to Alantic City Billiards to play in the national finals. We all lost, badly. We are going again next year. Why, I love pool and everything about it.
The point is, a guy like me can play and learn and be as good as he can be is a personal goal. I have many accomplishments on a personal level that I am proud of and will have many more. My best was in '06 I went to J'ville and won the regional, 6 straight wins, no losses. Moved from a 4 to a 5 and went to Vegas for the singles. Lost my ass, but I lost because of me not the other players.
I love pool, if you guys want to form a governing body for this level of in-betweens, count me in.