American legs weak on foreign soil? Or simply not good enough?

As a proud American pool player

And financial supporter of our game, its hard to admit that the US is outclassed by many other countries right now. Put our 10 best players against China's top 10 and we lose easily. Hell, if the US matched up in the Mosconi Cup against Germany, we'd lose if they brought Engert out from his pool room.

The fact is, presently, our only world beater is Shane, and he hasn't yet proven he can win after crossing an ocean. Earl and Johnny once played world class, but the world has slowly caught and mostly passed them by. A few pages back, I read names like dchaine, hatch and Shuff. Laughable to think they'd perform beyond their comfort zone on a world stage. I'd consider them minor leaguers. Back when American players dominated all the world tournaments, other countries (beyond the Philippines) hadn't hardly even discovered pool. Now that the world is smaller (through air travel) and Europe and Asia have started playing American pool, we don't win so much. And we won't, any time soon. Sure, SVB may snap off an event, but so what. There aren't any behind him that can. We need to start teaching our children how to play. That starts with having parents being comfortable about bringing their children into billiard clubs, not pool halls. In china, children are taught how to play in grade school. Those that are found to have significant natural abilities are separated and groomed. With a nation of 1 billion, they will soon be dominating all the world tournaments. We may never get to the level where our government supports our players similarly, but we can still produce winners. Professional pool will first need to organize its players. We will need a consistent tour for pros (with clear standards to qualify). We will need outside sponsorship. We will need statewide tours that feed into the pro level. Seems hard? A long way off? Well, until these steps are achieved, we won't be producing any champions, outside of the occasional, American monster. Don't believe me? Our recent history says so. I'll let you laugh in my face once American players start to dominate. Until then, clean up your local pool hall and turn it into a billiard club.
 
I think it says a lot that if you were to hold a US vs. UK Mosconi Cup type event, the UK team would be (in my opinion) favourites.

Given the differences in population that's pretty staggering, and that's without considering how few people in the UK play American pool with any kind of regularity.
 
NYC cue dude said:
And financial supporter of our game, its hard to admit that the US is outclassed by many other countries right now. Put our 10 best players against China's top 10 and we lose easily. Hell, if the US matched up in the Mosconi Cup against Germany, we'd lose if they brought Engert out from his pool room.

The fact is, presently, our only world beater is Shane, and he hasn't yet proven he can win after crossing an ocean. Earl and Johnny once played world class, but the world has slowly caught and mostly passed them by. A few pages back, I read names like dchaine, hatch and Shuff. Laughable to think they'd perform beyond their comfort zone on a world stage. I'd consider them minor leaguers. Back when American players dominated all the world tournaments, other countries (beyond the Philippines) hadn't hardly even discovered pool. Now that the world is smaller (through air travel) and Europe and Asia have started playing American pool, we don't win so much. And we won't, any time soon. Sure, SVB may snap off an event, but so what. There aren't any behind him that can. We need to start teaching our children how to play. That starts with having parents being comfortable about bringing their children into billiard clubs, not pool halls. In china, children are taught how to play in grade school. Those that are found to have significant natural abilities are separated and groomed. With a nation of 1 billion, they will soon be dominating all the world tournaments. We may never get to the level where our government supports our players similarly, but we can still produce winners. Professional pool will first need to organize its players. We will need a consistent tour for pros (with clear standards to qualify). We will need outside sponsorship. We will need statewide tours that feed into the pro level. Seems hard? A long way off? Well, until these steps are achieved, we won't be producing any champions, outside of the occasional, American monster. Don't believe me? Our recent history says so. I'll let you laugh in my face once American players start to dominate. Until then, clean up your local pool hall and turn it into a billiard club.
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Good post - some reality at last. I actually felt a little embarrassed for those who were suggesting the like of MD and BS could cut it on the international stage.

Unlikely to know much about the game on any meaningful level.
 
SakuJack said:
I think it says a lot that if you were to hold a US vs. UK Mosconi Cup type event, the UK team would be (in my opinion) favourites.

Given the differences in population that's pretty staggering, and that's without considering how few people in the UK play American pool with any kind of regularity.
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Aye, but that's because we can cue a ball, with the vast majority of good players never having had a lesson or read a book in their lives.
 
Do All Roads Lead to Rome? VERY LONG

I could be wrong here but…

There are two paths to becoming a championship level pool player. The first path is where you are constantly in the fire, gambling and competing each and every day. If you win you eat that day. If you lose - you don't. These types of players are constantly gambling and working on their games because they know if they continue to improve they will have more money in their pocket. When a player follows this path, they are concerned with winning first. From the time they first pick up a cue they are concerned with matching up and winning. Winning is great but it can come with a price.

Anyway, this path works just fine in the Philippines and it worked in the past in the U.S. But something changed in the past 10-20 years here. Top tier players can't find enough action to keep themselves motivated anymore. Of course there's still the occasional big money match, but for the most part, top players aren't matching up much anymore. It's even more difficult for the new players that are trying to take this path to success. Everyone from the guy that picked up a cue yesterday, to the local shortstop, and even up to the top regional guys are all known. Everyone's speed is well documented. Couple that, with the fact that everybody is looking for an edge and what you get is -- the death of the big time money players.

Now, take it a step further -- in a large percentage of the U.S., if you can run out a rack of 8 ball on a bar table you will be considered by many to be a great player. 50 years ago, the bar table was thought of as a complete joke. Now a days it's legit. Now, I'm not saying that the bar table can't be challenging and there certainly are bar table monsters amongst us. All I'm saying is that the standard - when it comes to what is considered to be great pool, has most certainly gone down hill.

Lastly, the end result of the gambling and bar table world that we live in is a bunch of top level players that have all learned to out run their inconsistent fundamentals. Who cares about fundamentals right? After all, all roads lead to Rome don't they? I'm not so sure they do anymore. Yeah, it still works for those guys that have the luxury of lining up action each and every night or simply through absolute raw determination (think SVB) but for the rest of the guys it seems to me that these fundamental errors tend to show up more in these short race tournaments that you find in most of the international events.

Here are just a few of the little things that I’ve noticed some of our top level players having to deal with: One stroking the ball. In other words, getting down on the ball and not following through on their routine, but instead just quickly pulling the trigger only to fire the ball into the rail. I watched several of our players do this during a recent Mosconi Cup. Ouch! There are several top U.S. players that apparently have to pay conscious attention to the position of their wrist while they are playing. Ever watched Stevie Moore play? He probably has the most curled wrist position of any player I’ve ever seen. Even our great Johnny Archer has a weird curled wrist. However, it doesn’t seem to slow him down. How about the creepers? These are the guys that creep up on the shot. Mike Dechaine does this on just about every shot. Even our greatest current player – SVB has a hitch in his stroke from bringing his cue back too fast on his backstroke. How do guys end up like this? I think from gambling early and often. In an attempt to beat the guy in front of you, you try anything and everything. “Let’s see, maybe if I curl my wrist this way and stand that way, the ball will go in and I will leave with the cash”. 20 years later they work out a lot of the kinks but some remnants of poor fundamentals still remain and they seem to show up at the most inopportune times.

So, I mentioned that there are two paths to playing championship level pool. The second path seems to be what the Europeans and many of the Asians (excepting the Filipino’s) are doing and that is focusing on fundamentals first and winning second.

When you follow this path, from the first moments you pick up a cue your goal is not necessarily to beat someone, but instead it’s to become proficient at something or hopefully even get great at it. If you want to become a snooker champion you can’t just walk into a snooker club and ask for a 50 point spot, put some money on the light, and get started. It doesn’t work like that. At least I don’t think it does. Instead you have to put in the time, and figure out how to cue first using proper fundamentals. Practice…practice…practice. Only then do you begin to compete seriously. Now of course, not all European pool players have a significant background in snooker, but it’s my hypothesis that even the pool culture is greatly influenced by this fundamentals first, win second mindset. When I watch the majority of the Europeans play, I just don’t see the small fundamental errors that I pick up on when I watch the U.S. players.

This sort of sums up my take on the matter. The real question becomes what can we do about it? I’m not really sure anything can be done about it overnight. I think there will always be a somewhat active gambling scene inside the U.S. But I’m not so sure it will ever be strong enough to create loads of championship level players like it did in the past. So I think early instruction will be the key, but I just don’t have much hope for that happening any time soon. Pool halls are closing left and right and the only place left to play is going to be in bars. Most kids aren’t going to get any early instruction in these places. All that will remain will be the odd kid here or there that is trained in their parent’s basement. I’ll see what I can do in this department. For all the other kids – they’re screwed.
 
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I thought Europe was an 80's hair band that sang "The Final Countdown"
Had no idea they were that talented at pool playing.
 
BasementDweller said:
I could be wrong here but…

There are two paths to becoming a championship level pool player. The first path is where you are constantly in the fire, gambling and competing each and every day. If you win you eat that day. If you lose - you don't. These types of players are constantly gambling and working on their games because they know if they continue to improve they will have more money in their pocket. When a player follows this path, they are concerned with winning first. From the time they first pick up a cue they are concerned with matching up and winning. Winning is great but it can come with a price.

Anyway, this path works just fine in the Philippines and it worked in the past in the U.S. But something changed in the past 10-20 years here. Top tier players can't find enough action to keep themselves motivated anymore. Of course there's still the occasional big money match, but for the most part, top players aren't matching up much anymore. It's even more difficult for the new players that are trying to take this path to success. Everyone from the guy that picked up a cue yesterday, to the local shortstop, and even up to the top regional guys are all known. Everyone's speed is well documented. Couple that, with the fact that everybody is looking for an edge and what you get is -- the death of the big time money players.

Now, take it a step further -- in a large percentage of the U.S., if you can run out a rack of 8 ball on a bar table you will be considered by many to be a great player. 50 years ago, the bar table was thought of as a complete joke. Now a days it's legit. Now, I'm not saying that the bar table can't be challenging and there certainly are bar table monsters amongst us. All I'm saying is that the standard - when it comes to what is considered to be great pool, has most certainly gone down hill.

Lastly, the end result of the gambling and bar table world that we live in is a bunch of top level players that have all learned to out run their inconsistent fundamentals. Who cares about fundamentals right? After all, all roads lead to Rome don't they? I'm not so sure they do anymore. Yeah, it still works for those guys that have the luxury of lining up action each and every night or simply through absolute raw determination (think SVB) but for the rest of the guys it seems to me that these fundamental errors tend to show up more in these short race tournaments that you find in most of the international events.

Here are just a few of the little things that I’ve noticed some of our top level players having to deal with: One stroking the ball. In other words, getting down on the ball and not following through on their routine, but instead just quickly pulling the trigger only to fire the ball into the rail. I watched several of our players do this during a recent Mosconi Cup. Ouch! There are several top U.S. players that apparently have to pay conscious attention to the position of their wrist while they are playing. Ever watched Stevie Moore play? He probably has the most curled wrist position of any player I’ve ever seen. Even our great Johnny Archer has a weird curled wrist. However, it doesn’t seem to slow him down. How about the creepers? These are the guys that creep up on the shot. Mike Dechaine does this on just about every shot. Even our greatest current player – SVB has a hitch in his stroke from bringing his cue back too fast on his backstroke. How do guys end up like this? I think from gambling early and often. In an attempt to beat the guy in front of you, you try anything and everything. “Let’s see, maybe if I curl my wrist this way and stand that way, the ball will go in and I will leave with the cash”. 20 years later they work out a lot of the kinks but some remnants of poor fundamentals still remain and they seem to show up at the most inopportune times.

So, I mentioned that there are two paths to playing championship level pool. The second path seems to be what the Europeans and many of the Asians (excepting the Filipino’s) are doing and that is focusing on fundamentals first and winning second.

When you follow this path, from the first moments you pick up a cue your goal is not necessarily to beat someone, but instead it’s to become proficient at something or hopefully even get great at it. If you want to become a snooker champion you can’t just walk into a snooker club and ask for a 50 point spot, put some money on the light, and get started. It doesn’t work like that. At least I don’t think it does. Instead you have to put in the time, and figure out how to cue first using proper fundamentals. Practice…practice…practice. Only then do you begin to compete seriously. Now of course, not all European pool players have a significant background in snooker, but it’s my hypothesis that even the pool culture is greatly influenced by this fundamentals first, win second mindset. When I watch the majority of the Europeans play, I just don’t see the small fundamental errors that I pick up on when I watch the U.S. players.

This sort of sums up my take on the matter. The real question becomes what can we do about it? I’m not really sure anything can be done about it overnight. I think there will always be a somewhat active gambling scene inside the U.S. But I’m not so sure it will ever be strong enough to create loads of championship level players like it did in the past. So I think early instruction will be the key, but I just don’t have much hope for that happening any time soon. Pool halls are closing left and right and the only place left to play is going to be in bars. Most kids aren’t going to get any early instruction in these places. All that will remain will be the odd kid here or there that is trained in their parent’s basement. I’ll see what I can do in this department. For all the other kids – they’re screwed.
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A great post
 
Maybe it's true that in the Philippines they gamble so as to get food on the table. But when I was there 6 years ago they said that they also gamble to see who is the better player. When they hear that there is a good player somewhere expect him to be challenged by another good player. And the ultimate test is to gamble with the elites. And I also heard that two of the elites where on the other table practising when spectators gather around and started betting, so they have no choice but whip each other asses for the bettors. So action there is constant, moring till dawn. From town to town.
 
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Ron Swanson said:
Still at where he was in post #129.

Now, who's Phil?
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Phil Helmouth. Everytime he loses at poker he says something like I played that hand perfect and you played it all wrong, and I still lost. That should've never happened, BLAH BLAH BLAH. You get the picture now?

You can't talk shit about someone's form, technique, etc. if they just beat you. There is no right or wrong, only winning and losing. Doing things "right" might make winning easier, but skill will usually out run technique. If your half the player you think you are, I'm sure some one can set you up to play the worst technique I've ever seen, Keith Mcready. You should beat him with little/no problem...
 
Ron Swanson said:
Yeah, but you gotta consider your audience...
Click to expand...

If this audience is so far beneath you, why are you here? Better be careful, with your nose tipped so far in the air, you might just trip and break it...


For as much shit as you talk, you sure like your anonimity. I seriously doubt you are Ronnie O'Sullivan, so lets see what you got. Who are you? What speed do you play? Does anyone know who you are, or how you play?
 
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