American Nine Ball in Decline?

[sjm]

The case is iron-clad in women's nine ball. The WPBA top 12 consists of seven Europeans, three Americans and two Asians. Obviously, America isn't on top in women's pool right now, though some of the young American talent might change that soon.

But what about the men? A wise man on this forum named Colin Colenso has written that "the USA had really better start thinking about sending a better team as their performance is disastrous for the original home of the game." Colin couldn't be more correct. We sent a few players that had virtually no chance to get through the round robin stages of the event, while every single one of the following twelve non-participants would have had excellent chances to reach the elimination stages:

Tony Robles, Jarrod Clowery, Danny Hewitt, John Schmidt, Tony Chohan, Larry Nevel, Gabe Owen,Frankie Hernandez, Shannon Daulton, Rob Saez,
Mike Zuglan, Shawn Putnam

... and I'm sure there are others that I've forgotten. I know some of these players were invited and couldn't make it for one reason or another, but the fact remains that none of these magnificent players went to Taiwan.

Barring a cracking good effort from this point of the WPC on, the world will likely conclude that the level of nine ball in the USA has declined, and it will be tough to blame the world for doing so.

When 22 of 25 players from the Philippines or Chinese Taipei make it through the round robin stage and only 7 of 13 Americans, and when Americans lost more racks than they won in the round robin stages, it would be very easy for anybody to conclude that Asia has left America in the dust.

Of course, we all know this isn't so. Or is it?

What, my felllow posters, does the 2004 WPC tell us about the state of American men's nine ball? Also, what can we do to ensure greater participation of our top men in the World Pool Championships?

 

[EDDINANM3]

Americans in WPC

There are always going to be would've and should've when it comes to who should be there and who shouldn't. That isn't going to change. But I wonder how the asians would do if the WPC were in Vegas lets say?

 

[karambolista]

There are always going to be would've and should've when it comes to who should be there and who shouldn't. That isn't going to change. But I wonder how the asians would do if the WPC were in Vegas lets say?

IMO, All things equal (financially) it would be close to the same outcome.

 

[Colin Colenso]

The US had better get used to travelling to Asia to play in the future due to the economics of the business.

Several Advantages:
1. Government Sponsorship
2. Corporate Sponsorship
3. Broadcasting of 100+ hours to around 40 million viewers.
4. TV paying for the content.

That's not gonna change until US can get some decent broadcasting and viewing numbers.

 

[mjantti]

Only American player that "surprised" to qualify was Danny Basavitch. And I know he is a very strong young player with high skill level. Tony Crosby also qualified as an American, but if I understood right, he's originally from England. A disappointment was that US Open title holder Jeremy Jones dropping out from the last 64.

 

[DawgAndy]

Not sure of the answer

I don't think the game of nine ball is in decline in the US. There could be many reasons for the poor showing at the WPC. I don't argue that the other countries sent stronger teams that is for sure. We need a better system for qualifying our players. That being the number 1 problem I don't want to slam the guys that got picked and went over there and got beat. Experience is a good teacher and they will be better players for it. Qualifying for next years should start in September so passports etc can be taken care of in plenty of time. The underlying problem may be we have no real tour . I wouldn't be surprised if some of ,if not all, the players who declined trips to Asia would have taken the invitation if it had been Cardiff. Tiawon is a long f!@#$ flight. Who pays for the players trips they get invited and have to pay for everything out of their own pockets? If thats the case ...well lame, man lame.

Turned out longer than I thought but it's 5 in the a.m.

Andy

 

[mjantti]

True. Also has to be noted that many players making debut at the WPC have fallen, because the tension there is unbelievable. Take a look at Parica who didn't qualify for the last 64. I have heard from players that the tension is extremely high and there are players who can't take it no matter how good they are on their home ground playing local / national tournaments. I've heard stories about top players totally collapsing at the WPC just because the pressure.

 

[sjm]

I don't think the game of nine ball is in decline in the US. There could be many reasons for the poor showing at the WPC. I don't argue that the other countries sent stronger teams that is for sure. We need a better system for qualifying our players. That being the number 1 problem I don't want to slam the guys that got picked and went over there and got beat. Experience is a good teacher and they will be better players for it. Qualifying for next years should start in September so passports etc can be taken care of in plenty of time. The underlying problem may be we have no real tour . I wouldn't be surprised if some of ,if not all, the players who declined trips to Asia would have taken the invitation if it had been Cardiff. Tiawon is a long f!@#$ flight. Who pays for the players trips they get invited and have to pay for everything out of their own pockets? If thats the case ...well lame, man lame.

Turned out longer than I thought but it's 5 in the a.m.

Andy

I agree, DawgAndy, that no bashing of any of the American men who were invited and went to the WPC is in order here. The went to Taiwan and did their best to represent their country. At fault is the methodology that led to the invitation of a few that most of us would agree are not world class nine ball players.

The cost of a trip to the Cardiff WPC event is very high, too, but I think culture shock is an issue, too. The culture in the UK is quite similar to our own, so we all feel very comfortable there, but Asia is different. I think some are using cost as an excuse, but if our best players need financial help, then the system that is American pool must find it for them. American pool players who hope to maximize their income better get used to playing a lot of pool in Asia, where pool is very deeply entrenched in the culture.

Europe got about 50 spots in the WPC, and the US got 13. America has won the last two Mosconi Cups by 11 - 9 and 12 - 1, or 23 -10 in aggreagate. It would be easy to argue we deserve more spots, but will we get them now that we have made the depth of our talent pool look modest through poor play in the WPC?

 

[Pelican]

Would this effect it

if we made the game harder for the WPC. i.e.:

9 on break gets spotted.
Early 9 does not win it gets spotted - 9 must be last ball made
Any ball made on foul is spotted
Foul is BIH behind headstring
If low ball is behind HS on foul it gets spotted
Alternate break

Shooters probably would not like these rules though. Damn sure television wouldn't. Might slow the game down.

Just a thought, Pel

 

[Wally in Cincy]

State of pool in Taiwan

From Matchroom website:

..."More than 2 million Taiwanese, nearly 10% of the population, play the game. The island's 2,500 pool rooms generate an annual income of US $800 million. A professional league is broadcast on television every Wednesday night for five straight hours, attracting viewers young and old, as well as steady sponsorship. "...

Damn, I wish we had live pool on tv

 

[Rickw]

At the risk of sounding unpatriotic, when I play someone pool, I don't think about whether they're American or not. The Mosconi Cup is a great venue and it does give us the opportunity to bring the notion of patriotism to pool, but other than that, I don't really look at it as a nationalistic endeavor. I've always admired Efren and could care less that he's Filipino. I actually like the idea that the rest of the world is getting into 9 ball. Maybe that will be the salvation of this sport. Maybe Americans will finally start to take more of an interest.

 

[Williebetmore]

Tony Robles, Jarrod Clowery, Danny Hewitt, John Schmidt, Tony Chohan, Larry Nevel, Gabe Owen,Frankie Hernandez, Shannon Daulton, Rob Saez,
Mike Zuglan, Shawn Putnam

... and I'm sure there are others that I've forgotten.

SJM,
I'm sure that it was just an oversight that you didn't mention me, so don't worry, I'm not offended.

I think the American 9-ball talent pool is extremely deep (anyone who was at the DCC knows that there are tons of extremely good players). However, the very top 3% of players certainly seems to be dominated by non-Americans. As pool certainly seems to be more popular abroad, I do not see much chance that the foreign domination will end soon. I do not expect any of these American players to attend out of any sense of patriotism - pool players (excluding Mosconi Cup) are basically in it for themselves - and its a long way to Taiwan just for some short race 9-ball. I agree with the poster who mentioned leagues and television as ways to increase interest and participation in the sport. The bigger the player base, the more chance of a dominant player arising.

 

[sjm]

SJM,
I'm sure that it was just an oversight that you didn't mention me, so don't worry, I'm not offended.

I think the American 9-ball talent pool is extremely deep (anyone who was at the DCC knows that there are tons of extremely good players). However, the very top 3% of players certainly seems to be dominated by non-Americans. As pool certainly seems to be more popular abroad, I do not see much chance that the foreign domination will end soon. I do not expect any of these American players to attend out of any sense of patriotism - pool players (excluding Mosconi Cup) are basically in it for themselves - and its a long way to Taiwan just for some short race 9-ball. I agree with the poster who mentioned leagues and television as ways to increase interest and participation in the sport. The bigger the player base, the more chance of a dominant player arising.

Right you are, Willie. Must add to my list of top American players that didn't make it to Taiwan both Williebetmore and CaptainJR. My mistake.

 

[ajrack]

USA vs the World

...The underlying problem may be we have no real tour . I wouldn't be surprised if some, if not all, the players who declined trips to Asia would have taken the invitation if it had been Cardiff. Taiwan is a really long flight. Who pays for the players trips they get invited and have to pay for everything out of their own pockets?
...I just heard this somewhere...

The way many of the "yankee" players have handled themselves during the last many years has not been very professional. But I also realise that they have not had much of a legitamate chance to show off their skills.
The Professional Snooker Tour...like anyone really wants to hear about them again...developed from a sparse, not well financed, group of players who pulled together with a "businessman" and has produced the current system.

The "pool product" venders in our country, over the years, have not had good results sponsoring players because they do not see that they get direct sales from their sponsorships. Just getting a player to use your product and pay an entry fee doesn't work.
It costs a lot of time, energy, and of course...MONEY...to get the "SYSTEM".
It does cost a lot to have a player travel around the country and considerable more to go overseas. So I am not surprized to see that many of our players are not in the "travel" challanges.
Is there a chance for US to get it going? We'll see in the next few years...Mark Griffin loves the game and is trying "his way"...Grady loves the game and is trying "his way"...just to name a couple... and there are many more out there trying it make it better, "their way".
If we could get a couple of thousand players together for a "POOL CONVENTION" in one place...we might get many voices and different opinions and maybe get the start of something good for the future of "YANKEE" pool.
"Wait a Minute"...don't a lot of players go to Vegas once in a while at the same time.

 

[bruin70]

america is a bigger country....that's all.

what if the phillipines had the same population size as the US???

 

[Renegade]

america is a bigger country....that's all.

what if the phillipines had the same population size as the US???

I don't know what the post above means, but if the philippines had the same population as the US it's going to be a hell of a crowded country! If you look at the map, the Philippines is not much bigger than some states.

But if we consider population size in relation to total land area, the Philippines is a much more populous (in terms of density) country than the US. I think only China and India (and possibly Indonesia) are denser.

I think the question is acceptance of the sport of pool among the general public. How many of the population even know about 9-ball, let alone how to play it? In this respect I think the percentage is bigger in the Philippines compared to the US. Given the state of things, the Philippines needs all the heroes it can get, and they certainly get it from their pool players. America is not lacking in stars to idolize -- in Hollywood, the NBA, the NFL, in business, etc. etc.

Interest in pool in America reaching new heights coincided with the release of the movies The Hustler and The Color of Money. If you ask me, one way to stem the decline of pool in America is ... "The Color of Money II, starring Matt Damon as Corey Deuel, Ben Affleck as Earl Strickland, and Tom Hanks as Johnny The Scorpion Archer (and Efren Reyes as himself since he has some movie background)! "

 

[mjantti]

Interest in pool in America reaching new heights coincided with the release of the movies The Hustler and The Color of Money. If you ask me, one way to stem the decline of pool in America is ... "The Color of Money II, starring Matt Damon as Corey Deuel, Ben Affleck as Earl Strickland, and Tom Hanks as Johnny The Scorpion Archer (and Efren Reyes as himself since he has some movie background)! "

Efren would have to play himself, no actor can duplicate that smooth stroke and the sheer joy of playing which radiates from Efren with his gestures, genuine smile on success and self-ironic smile & hand on his shirt collar after a rare mistake.

 

[Perk]

America has won the last two Mosconi Cups by 11 - 9 and 12 - 1, or 23 -10 in aggreagate. QUOTE]

Seems to me, America won the 2003 Mosconi in Vegas 11-9, but Europe won 12-9 in 2002....hence your aggreagate total is wrong: 20-21 in favor of Europe......

The rest of the results:
YEAR VENUE RESULT
1994 Rollerbowl, Romford USA win 16-12
1995 Festival Hall, Basildon Europe win 16-15
1996 Goresbrook Centre, Dagenham USA win 15-13
1997 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 13-8
1998 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 13-9
1999 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 12-7
2000 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 12-9
2001 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 12-1
2002 York Hall, Bethnal Green Europe win 12-9

 

[sjm]

America has won the last two Mosconi Cups by 11 - 9 and 12 - 1, or 23 -10 in aggreagate. QUOTE]

Seems to me, America won the 2003 Mosconi in Vegas 11-9, but Europe won 12-9 in 2002....hence your aggreagate total is wrong: 20-21 in favor of Europe......

The rest of the results:
YEAR VENUE RESULT
1994 Rollerbowl, Romford USA win 16-12
1995 Festival Hall, Basildon Europe win 16-15
1996 Goresbrook Centre, Dagenham USA win 15-13
1997 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 13-8
1998 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 13-9
1999 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 12-7
2000 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 12-9
2001 York Hall, Bethnal Green USA win 12-1
2002 York Hall, Bethnal Green Europe win 12-9

Thanks, Perk, I stand corrected. As you can see, I mistakenly omitted 2002, and added the 2001 results to 2003.

 

[ibarra]

Even when held in Cardiff, a lot of US players who got invites would decline.

The location is not the US players' problem. IMO, it's more of the need for sponsors. This problem is compounded by the fact that the official list of invites is always announced very close to the date of the WPC. If one doesn't have a sponsorship contract, you would be in a bind to source your finances for your ticket and accomodation.

...The underlying problem may be we have no real tour . I wouldn't be surprised if some, if not all, the players who declined trips to Asia would have taken the invitation if it had been Cardiff. Taiwan is a really long flight. Who pays for the players trips they get invited and have to pay for everything out of their own pockets?
...I just heard this somewhere...

The way many of the "yankee" players have handled themselves during the last many years has not been very professional. But I also realise that they have not had much of a legitamate chance to show off their skills.
The Professional Snooker Tour...like anyone really wants to hear about them again...developed from a sparse, not well financed, group of players who pulled together with a "businessman" and has produced the current system.

The "pool product" venders in our country, over the years, have not had good results sponsoring players because they do not see that they get direct sales from their sponsorships. Just getting a player to use your product and pay an entry fee doesn't work.
It costs a lot of time, energy, and of course...MONEY...to get the "SYSTEM".
It does cost a lot to have a player travel around the country and considerable more to go overseas. So I am not surprized to see that many of our players are not in the "travel" challanges.
Is there a chance for US to get it going? We'll see in the next few years...Mark Griffin loves the game and is trying "his way"...Grady loves the game and is trying "his way"...just to name a couple... and there are many more out there trying it make it better, "their way".
If we could get a couple of thousand players together for a "POOL CONVENTION" in one place...we might get many voices and different opinions and maybe get the start of something good for the future of "YANKEE" pool.
"Wait a Minute"...don't a lot of players go to Vegas once in a while at the same time.