Americans will never Dominate 'Pool' again and here's why

D

Desmondp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It really is a tribute to the game of American pool that more and more people worldwide want to play it.

A few decades ago, the best European cueists played snooker or English pool. English pool has effectively died off and only so many can survive on the brutally tough snooker tour so that has lead to many more european cueists playing american pool

That is a huge compliment to America.

Things will never be the same again, the US knowledge 'headstart' has now well and truly been eroded.

There are a few comparisons in the combat sport world. In Muay Thai, Thais used to dominate, they had the history, the knowledge but as westerners became more proficient (especially the dutch), there are less and less Thai champions. There used to be a time when the thought of a westerner going to Thailand and beating the Thais at Muay thai was unheard of, now it happens often.

Same in Taekwondo, koreans used to dominate, but when it became an olympic sport, worldwide interest grew and grew , now you can see gold medalists from all over the world.

Muay Thai used to be a Thai sport, now it's a worldwide sport

WTF rules Taekwondo used to be a korean sport, now it's a worldwide sport

US rules pool used to be a USA and asia sport, now it's truly worldwide

That is something everyone should be happy with but it does mean that the talent pool will never again be dominated by one country.

If we go back to the Mosconi Cup. When the Cup started, the US players had all the knowledge of the game, the Europeans almost none, snooker players making their way through half blind.

Now that there is parity in the knowledge base, i actually think USA v Europe is unfair

It should be USA v the UK or USA v Holland.etc


Anyway for the US there should be less focus on trying to recapture the conditons of success from the past (because that was a different playing field) and more about creating future success in the new worldwide demographic
 
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Yup

I agree with what you said. With a realistic view of American players the U.S. should only be playing against one country and not a continent.

It's American 9 Ball that every one loves, so put the 9 back on the spot when you rack at the Mosconi Cup!

Let Jolly Old England, or Germany, or Austria, etc. play the best years hot players from a few Asian countries.

I doubt they would be celebrating by jumping on the table and throwing cues on the floor.
 
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Well thought out.

You make valid points, the same is true in Judo, Table Tennis and Bad Minton, But..,

There should still be a few players from the usa that can show up at any tournament and win and there aren't.

Lots of great young talent, but for the past 10 years its been SVB or bust.
 
Desmondp said:
.

There are a few comparisons in the combat sport world. In Muay Thai, Thais used to dominate, they had the history, the knowledge but as westerners became more proficient (especially the dutch), there are less and less Thai champions. There used to be a time when the thought of a westerner going to Thailand and beating the Thais at Muay thai was unheard of, now it happens often.
Click to expand...

Ramon dekkers Taking out the great Coban, is one of the earliest examples
And he who now sometimes refs for lion fight

Your alright Des
 
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Desmondp said:
It really is a tribute to the game of American pool that more and more people worldwide want to play it.

A few decades ago, the best European cueists played snooker or English pool. English pool has effectively died off and only so many can survive on the brutally tough snooker tour so that has lead to many more european cueists playing american pool

That is a huge compliment to America.

Things will never be the same again, the US knowledge 'headstart' has now well and truly been eroded.

There are a few comparisons in the combat sport world. In Muay Thai, Thais used to dominate, they had the history, the knowledge but as westerners became more proficient (especially the dutch), there are less and less Thai champions. There used to be a time when the thought of a westerner going to Thailand and beating the Thais at Muay thai was unheard of, now it happens often.

Same in Taekwondo, koreans used to dominate, but when it became an olympic sport, worldwide interest grew and grew , now you can see gold medalists from all over the world.

Muay Thai used to be a Thai sport, now it's a worldwide sport

WTF rules Taekwondo used to be a korean sport, now it's a worldwide sport

US rules pool used to be a USA and asia sport, now it's truly worldwide

That is something everyone should be happy with but it does mean that the talent pool will never again be dominated by one country.

If we go back to the Mosconi Cup. When the Cup started, the US players had all the knowledge of the game, the Europeans almost none, snooker players making their way through half blind.

Now that there is parity in the knowledge base, i actually think USA v Europe is unfair

It should be USA v the UK or USA v Holland.etc


Anyway for the US there should be less focus on trying to recapture the conditons of success from the past (because that was a different playing field) and more about creating future success in the new worldwide demographic
Click to expand...

Great post. Very well said.

KMRUNOUT
 
Desmondp said:
It really is a tribute to the game of American pool that more and more people worldwide want to play it.

A few decades ago, the best European cueists played snooker or English pool. English pool has effectively died off and only so many can survive on the brutally tough snooker tour so that has lead to many more european cueists playing american pool

That is a huge compliment to America.

Things will never be the same again, the US knowledge 'headstart' has now well and truly been eroded.

There are a few comparisons in the combat sport world. In Muay Thai, Thais used to dominate, they had the history, the knowledge but as westerners became more proficient (especially the dutch), there are less and less Thai champions. There used to be a time when the thought of a westerner going to Thailand and beating the Thais at Muay thai was unheard of, now it happens often.

Same in Taekwondo, koreans used to dominate, but when it became an olympic sport, worldwide interest grew and grew , now you can see gold medalists from all over the world.

Muay Thai used to be a Thai sport, now it's a worldwide sport

WTF rules Taekwondo used to be a korean sport, now it's a worldwide sport

US rules pool used to be a USA and asia sport, now it's truly worldwide

That is something everyone should be happy with but it does mean that the talent pool will never again be dominated by one country.

If we go back to the Mosconi Cup. When the Cup started, the US players had all the knowledge of the game, the Europeans almost none, snooker players making their way through half blind.

Now that there is parity in the knowledge base, i actually think USA v Europe is unfair

It should be USA v the UK or USA v Holland.etc


Anyway for the US there should be less focus on trying to recapture the conditons of success from the past (because that was a different playing field) and more about creating future success in the new worldwide demographic
Click to expand...

Agree with everything except English pool dying off- it's in rude health, far and away the most popular cue sport in the uk, at least in terms of numbers of players.
 
Not convinced that USA versus UK or Holland or Germany would make a lot of difference. UK is the strongest nation by far right now at the pro level of "American" pool in terms of players who know the game, are competitive and have the experience needed to play a team match. Germany and the Netherlands are also pretty strong. Any 3 of those teams would be heavy favourites against any other national team other than Philippines, Taiwan or possibly China - even then they would have the upper hand in a team match.. Sky TV would bankroll USA vs UK but not the others but would be better to stick with the status quo of USA vs Europe and the tradition of the Mosconi Cup.

Get over being the underdogs. Get behind your team. They will win it again whether it's next year, the year after, the year after that or.......all that's wrong with pool has nothing to do with the Mosconi Cup/
 
No chance Germany or Holland is a favorite of every country except Philippines... Taiwain is a HUGE favorite over them and would be a big favorite I think over all of Europe. Chang Jung Lin, Ko brother, Wu Chia Ching ( I think he's from Taiwan but lives in China now), Kevin Cheng.

Shane Van Boening I have a lot of respect for him as a person and even more for his game but he isn't the only American that can compete with Europe. As far as most people on here saying well we will never win again since Europe has 6 world titles and we have none. It's hard to win world titles when I or most Americans don't travel to play in them. I promise you if I got to play 8 majors a year overseas for even a few years I would win one or a some and be in contention. Our best players don't go you have guys going over there that aren't even in the top 20 or even 50. They just want their name out there and that's great, but I'm not going to the Middle East and spending $5,000 to win $30,000 for a major. That's a joke!! We have very tough tournaments over too and if Europe is so great for pool why do half the Europeans move to the United States and no Americans move over to Europe?

On top of all that just say you guys are right... Europe is two balls better than all us it's a race to 5.... Lol so in a doubles match right it's possible to win a match and literally hit 10-15 balls even if it goes hill hill you will be lucky to shoot 20-25 shots... That's a full rack of 15 ball ONE RACK... It's just way too short to determine skill level.... Can you imagine another sport like Tennis or Golf where a player gets 10-20 shots like in tennis that's not even ONE rally lmao..... You would see upsets all the time... Nasal and Federer would get beat by guys and then all the experts would come out and say wow Federer lost 3 sets in a row in the biggest tournament that guy just can't handle pressure

Pool is a tough game with a lot of skill involved if played properly... For 9 ball between two top players, a real tournament match should be races to 21 with 30 second shot clock that should take an hour and a half to two hours... Then you would have a sport, a real match, and not where you lose the lag and your a huge underdog.... Just the way I see it..

And unlike most I am willing to back up my words with money. I'm going to try and put on a few tournaments $1,000 to $2,000 entry with money added and play different games 8 ball, 9 ball, and 10 ball... All 9ft diamond tables, call shot, shot clock, longer races 15 or 21... That's a real tournament... I think if we could play one of those a month or every two weeks we would see big improvement.... I didn't start playing pool to go to a bar and play a race to 7 9 ball magic rack for $2,000 1st place.
 
Justin Bergman said:
No chance Germany or Holland is a favorite of every country except Philippines... Taiwain is a HUGE favorite over them and would be a big favorite I think over all of Europe. Chang Jung Lin, Ko brother, Wu Chia Ching ( I think he's from Taiwan but lives in China now), Kevin Cheng.

Shane Van Boening I have a lot of respect for him as a person and even more for his game but he isn't the only American that can compete with Europe. As far as most people on here saying well we will never win again since Europe has 6 world titles and we have none. It's hard to win world titles when I or most Americans don't travel to play in them. I promise you if I got to play 8 majors a year overseas for even a few years I would win one or a some and be in contention. Our best players don't go you have guys going over there that aren't even in the top 20 or even 50. They just want their name out there and that's great, but I'm not going to the Middle East and spending $5,000 to win $30,000 for a major. That's a joke!! We have very tough tournaments over too and if Europe is so great for pool why do half the Europeans move to the United States and no Americans move over to Europe?

On top of all that just say you guys are right... Europe is two balls better than all us it's a race to 5.... Lol so in a doubles match right it's possible to win a match and literally hit 10-15 balls even if it goes hill hill you will be lucky to shoot 20-25 shots... That's a full rack of 15 ball ONE RACK... It's just way too short to determine skill level.... Can you imagine another sport like Tennis or Golf where a player gets 10-20 shots like in tennis that's not even ONE rally lmao..... You would see upsets all the time... Nasal and Federer would get beat by guys and then all the experts would come out and say wow Federer lost 3 sets in a row in the biggest tournament that guy just can't handle pressure

Pool is a tough game with a lot of skill involved if played properly... For 9 ball between two top players, a real tournament match should be races to 21 with 30 second shot clock that should take an hour and a half to two hours... Then you would have a sport, a real match, and not where you lose the lag and your a huge underdog.... Just the way I see it..

And unlike most I am willing to back up my words with money. I'm going to try and put on a few tournaments $1,000 to $2,000 entry with money added and play different games 8 ball, 9 ball, and 10 ball... All 9ft diamond tables, call shot, shot clock, longer races 15 or 21... That's a real tournament... I think if we could play one of those a month or every two weeks we would see big improvement.... I didn't start playing pool to go to a bar and play a race to 7 9 ball magic rack for $2,000 1st place.
Click to expand...

Even a 30 sec shot clock would lead to races to 21 taking all day...i like 10 secs, 5 extensions per match and no safety - let's see who's still standing then!

As for your Mosconi point about upsets, the results have been entirely predictable for the better part of a decade. Those stats don't lie. Americans are a long way behind Europeans in that format.
 
Pool is fading away & halls in usa. No where close what it was even 30 years ago here. Halls with hourly rates disappearing as well! Now by the game, no good.
 
Justin Bergman said:
No chance Germany or Holland is a favorite of every country except Philippines... Taiwain is a HUGE favorite over them and would be a big favorite I think over all of Europe. Chang Jung Lin, Ko brother, Wu Chia Ching ( I think he's from Taiwan but lives in China now), Kevin Cheng.
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When you include Wu for Taiwan I would bet on team Taiwan vs the world.

Chang Jun Lin
Ko Pin Yi
Ko Ping Chung
Wu Chia Ching
Kevin Chang

You can take the 5 best players from the rest of the world and I dont think you are better than even money against those 5.
 
10 seconds 😂😂 that's a joke right? 30 seconds is plenty short. Even fast players have to rush then and in return quality of play goes down. I think 80 percent of the worlds best players are methodical and take their time not slow. Look at Kevin Chang, Chang Jung Lin, Shane Van Boening, Alex Pagulayan, in fact most Filipinos. It might look good when a guy runs out in 10 seconds but I promise you that player will make more mistakes than a guy that takes his time. Can you imagine a golf tournament where they had to literally run to their ball and hit their shot in 10 seconds or 20... It wouldn't increase viewership and quality of play would go down. Just my opinion.
 
Desmondp said:
Yeah Ramon Dekkers is a legend :)
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I'm a legend . I'll be at the Music City Open and Derby this year. I'll play 60 strangers , not asking a single name . I I I I I I that's who I worry about . y'all better start hitting some balls . lol
 
I agree with the observation: The rest of the world adopted the American game .
They did, and did it well.
What they also did was change the game. It has been taken out of its original context and turned it into a contest of excellence instead of a contest for money, so the game is played altogether different.

In my opinion, unfortunately 9ball isn't really the best measure of excellence in the first place because of the slop factor, so to see 9ball as ( the only?) bar by which we measure American players, like Shane VanBoening, is truly a diservice to ourselves. In other words, if a few great 9ball players is all we have to offer, then yes we are behind the rest of the world. Where is today's Greenleaf, D'Oro, Hoppe, Mosconi, Caras, Lassiter, or Harold Worst?


That being said, the OP did not offer any valid reason why Americans won't ever dominate pool again. I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't happen at some point in the future.
 
Mr. Bond said:
I agree with the observation: The rest of the world adopted the American game .
They did, and did it well.
What they also did was change the game. It has been taken out of its original context and turned it into a contest of excellence instead of a contest for money, so the game is played altogether different.

In my opinion, unfortunately 9ball isn't really the best measure of excellence in the first place because of the slop factor, so to see 9ball as ( the only?) bar by which we measure American players, like Shane VanBoening, is truly a diservice to ourselves. In other words, if a few great 9ball players is all we have to offer, then yes we are behind the rest of the world. Where is today's Greenleaf, D'Oro, Hoppe, Mosconi, Caras, Lassiter, or Harold Worst?


That being said, the OP did not offer any valid reason why Americans won't ever dominate pool again. I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't happen at some point in the future.
Click to expand...

Pool isn't considered to be a "sport" in the USA. It is a "game".

Games come and go.

American youth have little, if any, interest in games that aren't somehow connected to a computer, a game box, or some sort of electronic/digital device.

There is little, if any, money to be obtained by being the greatest pool player in the world. What is the incentive to put in the time and effort?

Until pool is considered a "sport", it will never become popular again.
 
I'm with you . It's a game to us but to some it's a life .I'm all for any of it \all of it . Go hit some balls after work ,save yalls money like I do and go play some strangers . Make a difference yourself .PM me if y'all wanna try your skills at MCO or DCC ! I'm installing flooring and putting money back till then !!!!!! Halla
 
Justin Bergman said:
10 seconds 😂😂 that's a joke right? 30 seconds is plenty short. Even fast players have to rush then and in return quality of play goes down. I think 80 percent of the worlds best players are methodical and take their time not slow. Look at Kevin Chang, Chang Jung Lin, Shane Van Boening, Alex Pagulayan, in fact most Filipinos. It might look good when a guy runs out in 10 seconds but I promise you that player will make more mistakes than a guy that takes his time. Can you imagine a golf tournament where they had to literally run to their ball and hit their shot in 10 seconds or 20... It wouldn't increase viewership and quality of play would go down. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

No joke, could be persuaded to go to 15, if you ask nicely lol. Top snooker players can have average shot times within 15 seconds, and that includes walking around a 12' table and waiting for the ref to spot the colours...insane when you consider the complexity of the game as well.

Assessing a shot and executing quickly is a skill. It's also the same for both posters, so more mistakes evens out. The best will still win. I bet Asian players will struggle like mad.

More natural talents and fewer grinders, i say. Get pool back to favouring fast, aggressive shot makers, i say. Anything to make it more exciting...
 
Whatcha talking about, Willis

Desmondp said:
It really is a tribute to the game of American pool that more and more people worldwide want to play it.

A few decades ago, the best European cueists played snooker or English pool. English pool has effectively died off and only so many can survive on the brutally tough snooker tour so that has lead to many more european cueists playing american pool

That is a huge compliment to America.

Things will never be the same again, the US knowledge 'headstart' has now well and truly been eroded.

There are a few comparisons in the combat sport world. In Muay Thai, Thais used to dominate, they had the history, the knowledge but as westerners became more proficient (especially the dutch), there are less and less Thai champions. There used to be a time when the thought of a westerner going to Thailand and beating the Thais at Muay thai was unheard of, now it happens often.

Same in Taekwondo, koreans used to dominate, but when it became an olympic sport, worldwide interest grew and grew , now you can see gold medalists from all over the world.

Muay Thai used to be a Thai sport, now it's a worldwide sport

WTF rules Taekwondo used to be a korean sport, now it's a worldwide sport

US rules pool used to be a USA and asia sport, now it's truly worldwide

That is something everyone should be happy with but it does mean that the talent pool will never again be dominated by one country.

If we go back to the Mosconi Cup. When the Cup started, the US players had all the knowledge of the game, the Europeans almost none, snooker players making their way through half blind.

Now that there is parity in the knowledge base, i actually think USA v Europe is unfair

It should be USA v the UK or USA v Holland.etc


Anyway for the US there should be less focus on trying to recapture the conditons of success from the past (because that was a different playing field) and more about creating future success in the new worldwide demographic
Click to expand...

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