An Upset Karen Corr at World 10 Ball Championship

[frankwhite]

I hear on Espn all the time during WPBA matches that if a player is down on the shot Steve Tipton will not call foul even if the player's time is up, but if the player gets up at all Steve will call a foul. This is a recent changeover, I think, because I remember older WPBA matches before, say, 2004, where Steve would call foul no matter what the player's stance may be.

That is 100% correct...Once your down on the shot, no foul will be called unless you stand up again..Good point Michaelm

 

[Andrew Manning]

Thanks for all the input on this one. It was one of the more difficult situations I have encountered, especially since I was not there when the problem arose. I was in another room where other matches were being played at the time. They came and got me and told me there was a problem on the TV table. I ran over there not knowing what was going on.

The first thing I did was ascertain who was involved in this situation. I wanted to only talk to them. That was when I asked Julie Kelly to please stay out of the discussion that was going on. She was only complicating things in my mind.

The time clock arrangement that was being used on the TV table was not the best in my opinion. It had been improvised. No where could a player see a clock or whether they had an extension remaining. And it was VERY crowded and noisy in there. This match was being played in the middle of a gigantic mall and there was a circus like atmosphere that only made things more hectic. In most major tournaments where matches are being televised and a shot clock is in use, both players can actually see a visible time clock and some indicator of their remaining extension. This was not the case here.

Secondly, I realized that this particular referee was normally a very quiet man who did not have a strong voice. He was a good referee but maybe not the best man in this situation. Sometimes situations arise that are not covered in any rule book. That is when you must make a decision that is in the best interests of the game and fair play. That is why I ultimately gave Karen ten seconds to shoot the shot.

It was a very fair decision; if the ref had told her in a loud clear voice that she'd already used her extension, she would have realized she had to get down quickly and shoot. When you gave her 10 seconds, that put her in the same situation she should have been in; she knew that she had to get down quickly and shoot.

-Andrew

 

[michaelm]

It's one of those cases where if Scott Smith was the ref then Karen would have no trouble hearing him.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

I loved Jay's solution here. Based on how he handled everything, I'd be happy to play in any tournament he was officiating.

I'm totally shocked Karen missed the shot... the whole incident was a backwards shark. Basically, when everyone in the joint expects you to miss, there's no pressure on you, and the shot becomes a hanger. If I'm shooting some really tough shot that I expect to miss, and some drunk walks by the table singing to the radio, I love it. It probably adds 40 percentage points to the makeability of the shot hahaha.

- Steve

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Smooth operator!

Thanks for all the input on this one. It was one of the more difficult situations I have encountered, especially since I was not there when the problem arose. I was in another room where other matches were being played at the time. They came and got me and told me there was a problem on the TV table. I ran over there not knowing what was going on.

The first thing I did was ascertain who was involved in this situation. I wanted to only talk to them. That was when I asked Julie Kelly to please stay out of the discussion that was going on. She was only complicating things in my mind.

The time clock arrangement that was being used on the TV table was not the best in my opinion. It had been improvised. No where could a player see a clock or whether they had an extension remaining. And it was VERY crowded and noisy in there. This match was being played in the middle of a gigantic mall and there was a circus like atmosphere that only made things more hectic. In most major tournaments where matches are being televised and a shot clock is in use, both players can actually see a visible time clock and some indicator of their remaining extension. This was not the case here.

Secondly, I realized that this particular referee was normally a very quiet man who did not have a strong voice. He was a good referee but maybe not the best man in this situation. Sometimes situations arise that are not covered in any rule book. That is when you must make a decision that is in the best interests of the game and fair play. That is why I ultimately gave Karen ten seconds to shoot the shot.

Thanks for giving us your insight here Jay! We're a spoiled bunch, us AZBers....What other sport can say that the refs or tournament officials interact with the fans and are this easily assessible? I'm very impressed how you handled that particular situation. You got the facts and made a ruling that was VERY fair to Ms Coor. Good job! And kudos for not throwing the match ref under the bus. He seemed uncomfortable with what was happening until you showed up. You provided a good solution in very quick time that was very reasonable.

 

[inside_english]

OK...I'll say it.

Yun Mi Lim is smokin' hot!

I mean, Xiao Ting Pan, then Ga Young Kim, then Yu Ram Cha, and now this one!

These Asian pros are goddesses...

 

[woody_968]

That is 100% correct...Once your down on the shot, no foul will be called unless you stand up again..Good point Michaelm

So does that mean that when Jay gave Karen the 10 seconds, she just had to get down on the shot in 10 seconds and then could have taken longer if needed to actually deliver the cue?

 

[cleary]

I just cannot get down with the whole shot clock thing. Its too "sports" for me. To me you shouldn't have a shot clock without fans with painted faces and signs. I don't know, I just think pool is above that. Just like golf, tennis, etc... clocks just don't have a purpose in pool. Of course, people slow things down and they should be warned for slow play and should be to the refs discretion. But as a whole, the shot clock should be gone regardless.

 

[1 Pocket Ghost]

I just cannot get down with the whole shot clock thing. Its too "sports" for me. To me you shouldn't have a shot clock without fans with painted faces and signs. I don't know, I just think pool is above that. Just like golf, tennis, etc... clocks just don't have a purpose in pool. Of course, people slow things down and they should be warned for slow play and should be to the refs discretion. But as a whole, the shot clock should be gone regardless.

I agree 100%.

 

[FASTEJ]

Fyi

Just to let you know, shot clocks were not used in the other matches, only the TV table because it was live.

ED

 

[jason]

Interesting thread over something so trivial. A lot of good opinions here.

First of all, I'm generally against the use of a shot clock, but I'm not for slow play either. Especially intentionally and used as a tacktic. I agree with the poster who suggested no shot clock unless it has been determined that one play is playing extremely slow.

As far as an extension card, no. I hate the eight ball patch for league play, we don't need to over regulate the game like an overrun government program.

Julie, get the F-out of something your not involved with. Good call Jay!

I was first in the camp of the player being responsible for extensions. This situation is unique. If the norm is for there to be a visible clock, then this is truly is a special situation.

All things considered, I think Jay made a really good decision in this situation. I was still surprised she missed the shot.

 

[skip]

Jay made the right call to keep the competition going that what it all about.

 

[mullyman]

He said, she said doesn't matter. The system is flawed. I can't say if the ruling was correct or not, but I am sure Jay made the best of it. There needs to be a visible clock showing remaining extensions and an audible alarm at the 10 second mark.

An audible alarm at the 10 second mark? Are you kidding? There are so many pool players that blame their poor play on sounds happening around them can you imagine someone like Earl down on a shot and an alarm going off 3 tables over? He'd have a coronary. An alarm definitely is not the answer, unless they give the players bluetooth ear pieces to hear it privately.
MULLY

 

[mullyman]

That referee talked to softly with his "no mo" warning to Karen about her already taking her extension that no one would be able to hear him. The loudness of the facility in which they were playing doesn't help either.

Sorry, I don't buy it. We can hear it clearly in the video and he was standing just behind her. She didn't hear it because she was focusing on the game and not paying attention to the sounds around her. How else can you concentrate with that much noise around if you don't just zone out and block it all out? It's her own fault.
MULLY

 

[FASTEJ]

Fyi

Just a bit more info. The reason you hear the ref clearly in the video is because the ref was mic'd up just like the players.

ED

 

[frankwhite]

So does that mean that when Jay gave Karen the 10 seconds, she just had to get down on the shot in 10 seconds and then could have taken longer if needed to actually deliver the cue?

Woody, that is absolutely correct, being that she DOESNOT raise back up once in stroke.

Frankie

 

[pooltchr]

I just cannot get down with the whole shot clock thing. Its too "sports" for me. To me you shouldn't have a shot clock without fans with painted faces and signs. I don't know, I just think pool is above that. Just like golf, tennis, etc... clocks just don't have a purpose in pool. Of course, people slow things down and they should be warned for slow play and should be to the refs discretion. But as a whole, the shot clock should be gone regardless.

Just for the record, if your group falls behind in some golf tournaments, the whole group gets put on a shot clock.. And it REALLY disrupts the player's tempo and rhythm.

Steve

 

[jay helfert]

An audible alarm at the 10 second mark? Are you kidding? There are so many pool players that blame their poor play on sounds happening around them can you imagine someone like Earl down on a shot and an alarm going off 3 tables over? He'd have a coronary. An alarm definitely is not the answer, unless they give the players bluetooth ear pieces to hear it privately.
MULLY

You should hear the LOUD sound they use at the Mosconi Cup and the World Pool Masters to warn players when they have ten seconds left to shoot. Talk about getting sharked! I mean, you can hear this one all the way across the room and down the hall! :grin:

 

[alstl]

An audible alarm at the 10 second mark? Are you kidding? There are so many pool players that blame their poor play on sounds happening around them can you imagine someone like Earl down on a shot and an alarm going off 3 tables over? He'd have a coronary. An alarm definitely is not the answer, unless they give the players bluetooth ear pieces to hear it privately.
MULLY

So what is your solution?