Another bastard screw

KJ Cues said:
I believe that Mezz has shot themselves in the foot on this one, the Wavy pin.
It's obviously meant to compete with the Uni-Radial but was dead in the water before it left the factory.
The Radial is a very unique pin and it took me a while before I could get my head around it.
I now believe it to be a pretty decent pin, one that I don't think can be improved upon.
I believe also that Mezz knows this but it hasn't stopped them from trying to ride the Rad's success.

The Mezz Wavy will fail, not in the field but in it's marketing.
It's not needed, it's a gimmick. Is the 'shoulder thread' really an improvement?
The superiority of the Rad lies in it's pure simplicity and it's total contact area.
A copy or near copy ain't going to cut it. They can hype all they want, I don't fall easily.

Every time a new pin hits the marketplace, we CMs have to tool-up to stay current.
It's a gamble. Will my investment in new tooling be justified by increased work/demand?
I don't see it on this one, sorry, I can't justify it. I will not buy this tap.

Little story:
I'll be honest to say that I took the same position in regards to the Radial when it first came out.
I was just getting comfortable with the Uni-Loc QR and pretty much already had the tooling,
then this Radial thing arrives & (are ya kiddin me???). I was a little stand-offish at first,
so much so that Sey bought my first Rad tap for me. They saw what was coming before I did.
I did pay them for the tap, eventually, and have actually bought one for them to use as they
now do all Pred. warranty work in-house. I do almost none of that anymore. Anyway, back to topic.

I believe Royce mentioned that he has bought the tap. Very good Sir. At your manufacturing level,
you can justify it. I build maybe 100+ custom shafts a year and I can't (or won't).
With the number of shafts that I build and given their diversity in pin selection,
I just don't see that I'll ever do enough Wavy-pin shafts that I'll ever break even. So why??
One answer would be to accommodate that particular client. Pay attention, this will get deep.

This is pretty much a two way street here. Are we obliged to the client in that we should have every
tap for every pin ever conceived for use in a cue, or does the client bare some of the obligation to
use enough forethought in their purchase of a particular brand of cue, to consider that not every CM
is going to have the special (and pricey) tools necessary to properly work on their special pinned cue?
In most cases, I don't think it ever crosses their mind. It's only after the fact that reality sets in.
So what went wrong in this otherwise dream cue purchase?
Will the cue brand be looked upon as favorably as before?
Dare I ask, has the manufacturer 'leashed' the purchaser and now attempting to leash the C-Tec community?
How many times have you heard/read about sending an aftermarket shaft to Mezz/Japan for fitting? Many.
Was the client blind-sided or was it that he just didn't ask the right questions?

I don't know, maybe it's a status thing to own that tap, who knows? Never really been a status seeker though.
They're betting that we're going to have to buy-in to this and I have both doubts and objections.
It might be time to send a message that enough is enough.

Thanx Tommy, couldn't pass this up, Lol.

"Plus,we all know that there is NO guarantee the threads into wood will look as nice as the ad. Tommy D."

No No, those threads were cut with live-tooling. The thread-mill can be had for $898. Solid carbide though.

KJ
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I tend to agree with you KJ.

Even though we certainly stand the chance to do enough shafts to make it feasible, it's still a gamble. But, we have a few customers who've asked for them, so we made them available.

I too like the Radial pin. I just wish it was a little less coarse.


Royce
 
Hi,

Many years ago John Wright should me a radial pin that Bill Stroud had sent him for his opinion. John showed all the players around Chicago and everyone who looked at it including John did not like the look of it. At that time many players were used to seeing acme threads on a flat faced joint without a pilot.

So as we all know now the Radial pin caught on and many CMs embrace it today. For me I still don't like the way they look but you can't argue with their engineering and fit.

So whether the Wavy deal catches on or is good engineering is left for the experience curve to kick in. Royce is smart to be forward looking in this area for sure because it is customer service that is doubtless his motivation. If your supplying shafts and someone wants one for his Mezz you have to be prepared.

I will not buy one because my motivation is building one off custom cues. Other than 3/8 14, 3/8 10 and 3/8 11 I don't offer customer service for the other taps. Don't want the business.

So don't knock something you have not experienced and when a customer shows up with a job requiring this configuration just tell them to contact Royce.

JMO,

Rick
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

Many years ago John Wright should me a radial pin that Bill Stroud had sent him for his opinion. John showed all the players around Chicago and everyone who looked at it including John did not like the look of it. At that time many players were used to seeing acme threads on a flat faced joint without a pilot.

So as we all know now the Radial pin caught on and many CMs embrace it today. For me I still don't like the way they look but you can't argue with their engineering and fit.

So whether the Wavy deal catches on or is good engineering is left for the experience curve to kick in. Royce is smart to be forward looking in this area for sure because it is customer service that is doubtless his motivation. If your supplying shafts and someone wants one for his Mezz you have to be prepared.

I will not buy one because my motivation is building one off custom cues. Other than 3/8 14, 3/8 10 and 3/8 11 I don't offer customer service for the other taps. Don't want the business.

So don't knock something you have not experienced and when a customer shows up with a job requiring this configuration just tell them to contact Royce.

JMO,

Rick
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You go right ahead and fork up for that $380 tap. :grin-square:

For $380 you can buy a spindle. :wink:

The radial caught on b/c as KJ mentioned, due to it's simplicity.
And the tap sold for $39 or so then.
 
RBC said:
I tend to agree with you KJ.

Even though we certainly stand the chance to do enough shafts to make it feasible, it's still a gamble. But, we have a few customers who've asked for them, so we made them available.

I too like the Radial pin. I just wish it was a little less coarse.


Royce
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Royce,

I know of your level of customer accommodation, it's top shelf.
You were in my mind when I penned this statement:

"I just don't see that I'll ever do enough Wavy-pin shafts that I'll ever break even. So why??
One answer would be to accommodate that particular client."

That is something that you would do, even if it meant losing a few bucks to make the client happy.
You probably do it everyday. My hat's off to you and you have my respect, but....you can afford to do that.
We independents also aim to please but with a slightly more conservative budget.

I see two things coming to the surface in this thread.
Most of us are tired of the bastard/gimmick pins and having to buy the bastard tooling that goes with them.
I personally am totally put-off by Mezz in their shameless and blatant attempt to cash-in on a pin
that wasn't asked for, isn't needed and is inferior to what is already out there. It's all about the money.
Food for thought: Why does the Wavy tap cost 5 times what the Radial tap cost? (see above)^^^
Look, everyone has a right to make a buck, the market will support or deny their claim.
This to me is purely about greed and the thinking that we're just stupid enough to help make this happen.
The response to that might be: "If you don't have the tap then you can't work on Wavy shafts". Oh well....
By the same token, if a client can't get proper work done on their cue because the C-Tec doesn't have the $400 tap,
that client may consider a different brand of cue for their next purchase. Or at least one with a different pin.
Mezz is not doing us or even themselves any good with this one. BANG, you can still walk, right?

I certainly don't hold Atlas at fault in any of this. They are providing a service in offering the tap.
At least you'll know where to get one should the spirit move you. I hope they didn't have to buy a bunch of them.

The Best, KJ
 
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To make a special tap like the Mez hybrid radial/with a thread from on the crest, is a lot more work than the form required for a Radial(just a radius on the wheel) or conventional thread form (just a series of crested grooves). This is a Radius wheel form with the crested groove on either side. Not easy to produce and in a limited number run will be more time in setup than making the parts.
Even at $400 including postage , it still is a cheap tap compared to setting up and trying to get a company to make one for you.
What they could have done, is to have incorporated a radius at the crest between the radius section and at the same time, reduced the thread pitch a little. The radius on the thread crest will take away the stress raiser that is in the current radial thread form.
The thread no matter what the form is , requires either clearance in the root of the pin or clearance on the crest of the pin, otherwise it acts like a piston compressing the air or creating a vaccum when being put together or taken apart.
Myself, I will hold off as long as I can on not using this wavy form.
I might even just make my own wavy form, that is easy to make live tooling.The the pins can be made to match the generated profile a whole lot easier.
Neil
 
JoeyInCali said:
If Atlas, the largest US distributor, REFUSES to carry them, they'd just go away.
This if I don't carry it someone else will carry it excuse sounds like the mob excuse.
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How does Atlas no longer carrying the tap cause Mezz to stop using that pin? Because Mezz is the problem, not Atlas. Atlas is supplying us with a way to satisfy Mezz customers even more. But go ahead and blame Atlas for supplying another companies creation.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
How does Atlas no longer carrying the tap cause Mezz to stop using that pin? Because Mezz is the problem, not Atlas. Atlas is supplying us with a way to satisfy Mezz customers even more. But go ahead and blame Atlas for supplying another companies creation.
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People would stop buying these bastard pinned cues if they can't be serviced.
 
JoeyInCali said:
People would stop buying these bastard pinned cues if they can't be serviced.
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How long has that United pin/joint been out for? Because earlier this week when I put an order into Atlas that tap/pin wasn't on their site. So there has to be time where that pin was unserviceable. Doesn't seem like the pin being unserviceable stopped them from making that pin.
 
Maybe a cuemaker should buy one and then rent it out. Now before you knock my idea look at the custom firearm industry. Chamber reamers are available from several places for rent usually it's like 25-35 for a couple days then ship it back. A gunsmith couldn't have all reamers for all calibers in stock so it would make sense to rent one for a odd chamber that you may only use once.

If you could rent the tap you could tap several shaft blanks send the tap back and have a couple shafts set back for the next time. Would you as a cue maker be willing to pay say $15 plus shipping both ways to make a shaft or 2 and not have to fork over the $400 to buy a tap.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
How long has that United pin/joint been out for? Because earlier this week when I put an order into Atlas that tap/pin wasn't on their site. So there has to be time where that pin was unserviceable. Doesn't seem like the pin being unserviceable stopped them from making that pin.
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What's the name of the cues you make ?
 
It would make more sense if someone made phenolic inserts with this thread form in them and ready to install. With the thread already concentric to the od of the sleeve what ever size that may be.
Then I could just buy an insert and put that into any shaft blank.
Neil
 
conetip said:
It would make more sense if someone made phenolic inserts with this thread form in them and ready to install. With the thread already concentric to the od of the sleeve what ever size that may be.
Then I could just buy an insert and put that into any shaft blank.
Neil
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After reading this thread I'm actually pondering having a pile of these machined for a much more reasonable price. Does anyone have a spare pin or know where I can buy one?

Thanks!
 
ideologist said:
After reading this thread I'm actually pondering having a pile of these machined for a much more reasonable price. Does anyone have a spare pin or know where I can buy one?

Thanks!
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http://www.cuestik.com/store/?DEPARTMENT_ID=350

By the way. I'd just go ahead and buy the tap if I was going to sell the inserts.

I think you're just asking for trouble to modify a pin that you expect to make a large number of commercial acceptable quality parts. Especially in phenolic which is highly abrasive.


Royce
 
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