Another Phenolic Thread

Yancey

Yancey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Before they ban anything, lets determine a few things:

1. Is the cue which is phenolic slamming into the rack, which is the most resistive part of this equation, the phenolic "event" that is causing the damage? OR...is it the contact of the phenolic tip, which has even less resistance total than a RACK OF PHENOLIC BALLS, to the phenolic cue ball.

It is easy to say it is the cue tip but in the scheme of things what has the most resistance, at that point is where lies the problem.

2. G-10 is harder than standard phenolic tips. To lump everything into one broad bucket and say, phenolics is banned, then if they truly want to solve the problem. Find another material for the balls because they ARE phenolic if they are a good Aramith quality which measles balls are.

To lump something into one broad category and banning it is over-reacting in my view.

3. As someone said in an earlier post, why is this happening now when phenolics have been used for years . I have even had a measle ball of mine crack and I asked one of the managers of the supply houses I do business with and they told me that some of the "measle balls" are flaking. Ones that havent even been played with phenolic tips.

I simply am not convinced that it is the tips because I own seven different types of cue balls and my red circle cue ball isnt cracking, my blue dot isnt cracking but my measle ball is cracking at the edges of the red circles.

4. I think that this policy of banning these isnt going to break the hearts of some suppliers as they have a slew of non-phenolic tip sticks to sell folks.


Based on each person's opinion, they will decide what events they will enter and this is another criteria for some, just like those that dont like certain other rules, be it winners break, rack your own, alternating break. But which ever way this ends up, lets at least do some testing on the actually break and seperate testing on the tip hitting the cue ball, and the same with a none phenolic tip and see which is causing the cracks or flaking before we have tens of thousands of people replace their break or jump cues.
 
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It was a joint conspiracy between BCA and Tandy Leather.
G10 is still phenolic.

Only leather should hit balls imo.
 
I think it is a done deal, and the BCA will never get me as a player at a BCAPL Event. I am sure they do not care, and I do not care, I enjoy my annual trip to Sin City to watch, and look at the exibits. But I like my Phenolic Tips, and personally have seen it cause ZERO DAMAGE to anything I hit. But I do not BREAK at 25 MPH.
 
I've never seen phenolic damage a cue ball but it's also not that big a deal either.

Most people would benefit more from a hard leather tip and a solid hit on the head ball than the wild swing for the fences break I see all the time anyway.

Phenolic is overrated anyway. If you break 25mph , 24.8 won't hurt and if you break 10mph , 10.2 and gonna help.

:)

I use phenolic but just because of the maintainance free aspect.
 
Yancey said:
Before they ban anything, lets determine a few things:

1. Is the cue which is phenolic slamming into the rack, which is the most resistive part of this equation, the phenolic "event" that is causing the damage? OR...is it the contact of the phenolic tip, which has even less resistance total than a RACK OF PHENOLIC BALLS, to the phenolic cue ball.

It is easy to say it is the cue tip but in the scheme of things what has the most resistance, at that point is where lies the problem.

2. G-10 is harder than standard phenolic tips. To lump everything into one broad bucket and say, phenolics is banned, then if they truly want to solve the problem. Find another material for the balls because they ARE phenolic if they are a good Aramith quality which measles balls are.

To lump something into one broad category and banning it is over-reacting in my view.

3. As someone said in an earlier post, why is this happening now when phenolics have been used for years . I have even had a measle ball of mine crack and I asked one of the managers of the supply houses I do business with and they told me that some of the "measle balls" are flaking. Ones that havent even been played with phenolic tips.

I simply am not convinced that it is the tips because I own seven different types of cue balls and my red circle cue ball isnt cracking, my blue dot isnt cracking but my measle ball is cracking at the edges of the red circles.

4. I think that this policy of banning these isnt going to break the hearts of some suppliers as they have a slew of non-phenolic tip sticks to sell folks.


Based on each person's opinion, they will decide what events they will enter and this is another criteria for some, just like those that dont like certain other rules, be it winners break, rack your own, alternating break. But which ever way this ends up, lets at least do some testing on the actually break and seperate testing on the tip hitting the cue ball, and the same with a none phenolic tip and see which is causing the cracks or flaking before we have tens of thousands of people replace their break or jump cues.
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Hardness of the tip is not even a factor. The cue tip only hits the cue ball at about 30 MPH (That would be at the most by someone with a very powerful break), and the cue ball quickly moves out of the way. The cueball is not an immovable object. It would not actually matter how hard the tip is it can not damage the cue ball just due to the slow speed and actual low impact.

When you run, as many know the impact on the leg is several times the runners body weight. This is due to the fact that the ground is an immovable object. The 1 ball trapped at the apex of the rack is an immovable object and just as with a runner it absorbs I would guess as much as three time the impact as the tip to the cueball. If there was a shred of truth to what they are saying you be replacing 1 balls after almost every match. Their theory is laughable.
 
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RRfireblade said:
I've never seen phenolic damage a cue ball but it's also not that big a deal either.

Most people would benefit more from a hard leather tip and a solid hit on the head ball than the wild swing for the fences break I see all the time anyway.

Phenolic is overrated anyway. If you break 25mph , 24.8 won't hurt and if you break 10mph , 10.2 and gonna help.

:)

I use phenolic but just because of the maintainance free aspect.
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You get GREEN. good post.
 
I'm glad they banned them. It's too bad they didn't do it sooner, but better late than never. Hopefully they will be more proactive in the future and not wait until the next equipment-damaging "innovation" is being used by a lot of people before they ban it.

I'm not sure how to write the rule on tips, but the current "leather or other fibrous material" didn't stop phenolics. How about just saying leather?
 
macguy said:
Hardness of the tip is not even a factor. The cue tip only hits the cue ball at about 30 MPH (That would be at the most by someone with a very powerful break), and the cue ball quickly moves out of the way. The cueball is not an immovable object. It would not actually matter how hard the tip is it can not damage the cue ball just due to the slow speed and actual low impact.
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The above is factually inaccurate.

The problem is that phenolic is very hard. Since it is very hard, when the cue hits the CB, the point of contact is very tiny. All of the forces are transfered through this very tiny contact point. Thus the pressure is very high since the area of contact is very tiny (Pressure ~= constant*30MPH/area).

When the pressure (in PSI) reaches the yield point of the cue ball (in PSI), the surface of the CB will crack.

Notice that if the tip were 1/2 the stiffness of phenolic (around 96-97 on the durrometer) the pressures on the cue ball are halved and the chance of creating a divot on the surface goes down by about 2 orders of magnitude.
 
ugh, you already know there are other threads on this. A million of them.

They have already discussed whether or not there's really damage (yes, very slight), whether other hard tips could work (yes), whether the ban is a big conspiracy (lol)...

etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

More important than any of these facts: The ban is in effect and they're not about to flip-flop and immediately reverse it. If they change it at all, it'll be after giving players enough time to try it out and adjust. If they can't adjust then maybe it'll get reversed.

I'm not trying to be a díck and criticise the original poster for wanting to chime in... it's just that pretty much every valid (and not-so-valid) point has already been made a dozen times in the other discussions. Bítching about it is getting so old. It's a done deal, bury the horse.
 
Creedo, actually all points havent been brought up about this and please show me where they have done any tests on this before they just came out with an edict and banned a bunch of tips that have and are in use the world around.

Wonder how many players used phenolics in the Philopino Open?

The point that the measle ball is cracking/flaking but the red circle and blue dot cue balls arent cracking under the same break with the same phenolic break tips tells me in practicality that it isnt the tips doing this. I wanted to get some feedback to see if anyone has a blue dot or red circle that has this same cracking from the tips.

The second point is the cue tip, cue ball and object balls are the same material as in regular phenolic tips (not to be confused with G-10 with fibers, etc) and the point of most resistance is at the break with a full hit on the apex ball in the rack. So how is the cue tip the issue here.

The third point, I personally was discussing this issue with a senior manager of a BIG billiard supply house and he told me that the cracking was not from breaking but that he is seeing flaking at the edge of the red circles on the measle balls that are NOT associated with breaking.

The reason I posted was to clarify the above three points and I have not seen them done so in any other posts.

Sorry for the post and I am done with this issue.

Thanks!
 
I think the BAN
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Yancey,

First, the rule that the tip could not damage the equipment has been there for a long time. No one has enforced it, but it has been there.

Second, there are many forms of damages showing up out there with different cue balls, some of which is caused by nails or screws in the pockets, some of which comes from bouncing the cue ball on a hard floor, and some from the tips used in breaking.

Third, you have to come up with a rule that is easily enforced. You can't have a durometer at every tournament match to make sure someone hasn't changed the tip between matches. Basically, it has to be a very simple visible evaluation. You just wouldn't be able to tell if the plastic on this cue was legal, and the plastic on another one was not. I have a tip that I used to make for this purpose, that would be legal. But, I don't know if you would be able to tell it apart from the others, so I am waiting in the wings. Personally, I think that tips should be leather. There are leather tips out there that hit just about as hard as phenolic, and don't damage the balls. The Samsara Break tip is fantastic for this reason. It also lets you control the cue ball on the break.


All in all, this is a tough rule to digest, but I think it is for the better. I believe that the phenolic tip ferrule combos have actually hurt the breaks of the majority of the players who use them. I see way to many cue balls flying off the table.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Yancey said:
The point that the measle ball is cracking/flaking but the red circle and blue dot cue balls arent cracking under the same break with the same phenolic break tips tells me in practicality that it isnt the tips doing this. I wanted to get some feedback to see if anyone has a blue dot or red circle that has this same cracking from the tips.


Thanks!
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Wrong wrong wrong, sorry dude. But i've seen plenty of red circles cue balls take on damage from the use of phenolic tips. LOTS.
 
Here is my take.

Phenolic tips on break cues = bad. They damage the equipment, i agree to that.

However, on a jump cue I don't think they are used at a force to cause any damage. 999 out of 1000 times a jump shot is a nice little "POP" stroke. I think with leather jump tips you "MIGHT" find people hitting the balls harder and then making felt contact with the tip and causing more damage to the felt.

Either way, it's all good to me. I can adjust. :)
 
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