Another question for the English gurus.
- Thread starter sparkle84
- Start date
Based on my crappy visualization/memorization skills, it's likely my poor diagram, I didn't mark the exact location of the cue ball.
And I shouldn't have used the camera angle I did and I will reshoot and have someone hold the phone close so you can see what's what.
The address was holding both hands to left of (perceived) vertical axis, like so-called "parallel english" with the right side of the tip to hit the cue ball if shot straight forward, and then pivoting a bit with the stroke hand, so that the left side of the tip was in play.
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Did you watch the whole video? No other comments? You and others said you don't know how well I play, any concept of my playing skills now for you? Do you have to give me the six and the break when we play?
Also, do you acknowledge that PJ and I agree regarding english and how it was imparted to the cue ball on this stroke?
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We don't agree on that yet - I'll wait for your re-shoot (thanks for offering).
pj
chgo
Hopefully you won't get all upset and indignant over my reply.
You may want to consider starting a new thread on the Ask The Instructor forum.
Put the video up and ask for the instructors to critique and maybe offer some suggestions as to how you can incorporate some pro techniques and secrets to help get your game up to snuff.
Might want to pick one who specializes in a loose tip gap and/or bridge length.
Hopefully one of them will offer you a free Zoom lesson but you'll have to straighten out your camera angles.
It's difficult to admit that you don't know what you don't know but it truly is the first step towards recovery.
Please let me know if I can be of any further help.
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Videoing again was most helpful, especially when I slowed the playback down to 1/10th speed as shown here, it's almost an optical illusion because of my follow through but (logically) I must be hitting the right side of the CB whether it's hard to see (or feel when stroking fast) as PJ has described (moving toward the right side of the CB's center of mass).
I had to move a bar table and equipment around to get my phone in position, it's roughly aligned with the side pockets. I placed the cue ball to either side of center table aligned with the first diamond.
My point of contention remains, you can influence the initial path of the cue ball by changing body alignment but not, of course, english or english amounts. So instead of standing the traditional way along the shot line, I am standing over to the left side of the ball, not just hands parallel to the left side of the CB but my whole body--then using backhand to apply right english--allowing me to strike the CB to get that first rail kick quite close to the OB as shown.
Put differently, if I lined my cue center ball, then pivoted for a more traditional english stroke I'd have trouble with this shape. Try it the traditional way and my way and see if you agree?
Thanks.
I had to move a bar table and equipment around to get my phone in position, it's roughly aligned with the side pockets. I placed the cue ball to either side of center table aligned with the first diamond.
My point of contention remains, you can influence the initial path of the cue ball by changing body alignment but not, of course, english or english amounts. So instead of standing the traditional way along the shot line, I am standing over to the left side of the ball, not just hands parallel to the left side of the CB but my whole body--then using backhand to apply right english--allowing me to strike the CB to get that first rail kick quite close to the OB as shown.
Put differently, if I lined my cue center ball, then pivoted for a more traditional english stroke I'd have trouble with this shape. Try it the traditional way and my way and see if you agree?
Thanks.
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I'm not upset but I find you have an interesting way of saying "Matt, you play awesome. You would defeat me at any pool game one-handed." I ran those tables as shown in 90 seconds each on Tuesday by your royal command and your reponse is snotty, Scotty, so beam me up.
Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.
Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up.
PS. Fix your tip gap by using your feet, and your bridge is too long.
PPS. You owe me $495 for the lesson.
PPPS. Just so we're clear, this is me kicking this table's butt:
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Looks to me like a typical swoop stroke - highly unrecommended.
Swooping the stroke has been discussed extensively here - it does nothing that a normal stance and straight stroke at the same angle can’t (except complicate things). The only thing that matters is CB contact point, angle of approach and speed - the impression that a “trick” like a swoop adds something isn’t uncommon, just wrong. You can (and should) make that shot with a normal stance and straight stroke.
pj
chgo
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'Tis a swoop in every shot shown. Yes. That's the only way Tom Kennedy hits english, which is interesting. He hits any english shot as if he is making his forward stroke back to the center of a ghost cue ball between his backstroke and the actual cue ball then swoops in that last inch or so.
I agree with you 100%, by the way, I'm not trying to be argumentative. The swoop adds ZERO spin advantage. But I also agree with you that "CB contact point, angle of approach and speed" do matter. The cue ball below is seen from above the table:
Obviously, stroking through C-E (STRAIGHT right english stroke on the line extended on both sides of C-E) and C-D (right english swoop, so that a DIAGONALLY turned cue tip strokes STRAIGHT along the line extended on both sides of C-D, different than a so-called "parallel english stroke", by the way) would yield the same degree of english but with a different initial cue ball path.
I do not recommend swooping for everyone or even most players, and I use other english techniques on most other cuts. What I am rather trying to suggest is that for the shot in the video, it's an easy shape for me with a swoop and challenging for a traditional stroke. Try it both ways and see. It's a "big ball" sitting in the pocket like that, but the feel is like poking straight into the spot between the OB and rail. The feel on a traditional stroke is more skittish. I knocked that shot with a swoop eight rails last night when adding a bit more oomph! VERY hard to do that along the same cue ball path with a regular stroke (for me).
"You can (and should) make that shot with a normal stance and straight stroke."
I hear you. I'm likewise going to do it ten times the old way next week (normal stance and straight stroke) and report on results.
Thanks for the help!
Moving the tip in the C-E direction* produces more spin than moving it in the C-D direction, no matter how your cue is angled or whether you swoop or not.
pj
chgo
*C-E is also impossibly far from center, but we can ignore that for now.
Honestly, no special stroke is needed to get this action. You do it your way because that's how you make it work. Another player could get the same result using backhand pivot style english. And another player could do it using a traditional straightforward stroke, lining straight up with the english-adjusted aim line. Somewhere out there, I'd say there’s a player who can get the same cb action shooting the shot from behind the back and standing on one leg. Lol.
I'm on PJ's side of the fence when it comes to cb action. All that matters is the contact point on the cb and the direction of the cue at the exact moment of impact. What happens with the cue before or after impact is irrelevant.
But there’s a lot that can be said about feel, about how a shot feels to the player. So it makes sense that if player "A" feels like a special stroke technique makes something special happen, he/she will believe that's the only way to make it happen, despite the fact that other players can make the same thing happen without employing player A's "special" technique.
Yes. I wanted to emphasize that I do not believe C-D produces more spin.
And yes, C-E is part of a rough diagram.
But the further the CB and OB are, the easier it is to adjust aim on the OB via a C-D strike, for (nearly) everyone who's tried both methods. It's as simple as stroking nearly straight vs. stroking diagonally--the difference is proved, frankly, by how many players (wrongly) use "parallel" instead of pivot. Why do they use "parallel"? Because it is almost always more comfortable to stroke straight on that diagonal to the target patch.
I understand and agree, also, experimentation yields better results than obstinacy. Students who drink my koolaid also playfully try alternative strokes.
But for me on this particular shot, we're talking about cinching a very challenging shape with a nearly 100% success rate.
I agree...experimentation is an important part of learning.
If "parallel" means "straight on that diagonal", what is it parallel with? Or does that just mean non-swooping?
pj
chgo
Everyone sees what they want to see based on their knowledge and experience.
I see something completely different in that video.
As to your contention ie the trickshot invented by you, now with the second video we can see it's just a routine 3 rail shot around the table off a ball hanging in the side. It doesn't get a whole lot easier than that.
The bottom line here is that whenever you involve yourself in something pool related we're faced with a classic example of Dunning Kruger.
By "parallel" I mean both hands parallel to center, stroking straight through C-D (stroking parallel to center CB):
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The swoop brings the tip through C-D with the cue turned diagonally in the hands:
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The traditional strokes straight through C-E:
The swoop thus is between the two strokes in a (good) sense. We know "parallel" causes horrible misses. And traditional pivot english requires a lot of aim adjustment.
My experience is I adjust less for deflection, because of initial cue ball path (straighter at the OB target than traditional) but NOT because I've cheated deflection or magically altered Newtonian physics! The swoop, of course, will send the CB on an initially straighter path then the traditional stroke.
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SparkMan, stop throwing tantrums.
And learn how to count, it's five, not three rails, with a LOT of english. Where's your video where you shoot this for shape even one time, swoop or traditional?
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities. You may have forgotten the credits in my signature or how I just had students for $500 per person come to my Pro Pool Clinic.
**
I still await your response to:
Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.
Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up.
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That's a misperception. As I've said to you before, that kind of cue movement is impossible without sliding your bridge hand forward (and it wouldn't give the result you imagine anyway).
A swoop stroke moves the tip in an arc (the "swoop") so that it arrives at the CB going in the C-E direction, just like a straight angled stroke would.
pj
chgo
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SparkMan, stop throwing tantrums.
And learn how to count, it's five, not three rails, with a LOT of english. Where's your video where you shoot this for shape even one time, swoop or traditional?
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities. You may have forgotten the credits in my signature or how I just had students for $500 per person come to my Pro Pool Clinic.
**
I still await your response to:
Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.
Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up.
It's safe to say that the majority of people viewing this exchange know what's meant by routine 3 rails around the table.
I may have further comments as time permits but am happy at the moment to let the video stand for itself