Another question for the English gurus.

Patrick Johnson said:
That's a misperception. As I've said to you before, that kind of cue movement is impossible without sliding your bridge hand forward (and it wouldn't give the result you imagine anyway).

A swoop stroke moves the tip in an arc (the "swoop") so that it arrives at the CB going in the C-E direction, just like a straight angled stroke would.

pj
chgo
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I'm genuinely looking for discussion, not an argument, and appreciate this discussion.

Regarding a bridge hand slide, to double-check, following our prior discussion I went to a table and hit shots by presetting the diagonal cue with wrist pronation (or supination) and then stroked shots straight forward. I observed the english on the table in the correct preset amounts. My bridge remained stable.

On a non-preset swoop, I have room in my loop and a half-tip of english and a soft stroke doesn't ruin the bridge hand. Although you can see my bridge hand opening and moving on the big strokes on the video, sure, but after CB contact and again, the shape is fine.

Regarding misperception, I can certainly see and feel an aim difference on the table. And students who overcut from english deflection enough to miss a faraway OB entirely like how they can score the same ball with a swoop. I don't think it's a misperception for me and for them both. I've had a lot of students shoot both ways in person.
 
sparkle84 said:
It's safe to say that the majority of people viewing this exchange know what's meant by routine 3 rails around the table.

I may have further comments as time permits but am happy at the moment to let the video stand for itself
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Hi Mr. Duck-and-Dodge,

I use the shot with students who go only 2-3 rails and get stuck on the top half of the table for shape. My cue ball hugs the long rail then goes five rails, and I can post a video showing it going 8 rails although I don't want to burden you with using more fingers to count.

Can you make my shot even one time? Show a video, why don'cha?

**

Also, I've posted TWO videos and not ONE as you wrote. So I still await your response to:

"Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.

Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up."

**

So here I am, showing you how to play pool, please try again to respond, if you can, especially since I made THESE VIDEOS AT YOUR SPECIFIC REQUEST. YOU ASKED ME FOR THESE VIDEOS.

 
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BilliardsAbout said:
I went to a table and hit shots by presetting the diagonal cue with wrist pronation (or supination) and then stroked shots straight forward. I observed the english on the table in the correct preset amounts. My bridge remained stable.
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By "stroked shots straight forward", do you mean straight along the new diagonal line of the cue? If so, that's just presetting your cue angle to compensate for squirt, as usual (and the stroke movement doesn't look like your drawing).

For reference, here's how a "swoop" (arced) stroke can work the same as a pre-angled straight stroke. Because they both hit the CB on the same spot and moving in the same direction, there's no difference in the force "felt" by the CB or in the outcome. The swoop only adds complications and inconsistencies.

pj
chgo

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Patrick Johnson said:
By "stroked shots straight forward", do you mean straight along the new diagonal line of the cue? If so, that's just presetting your cue angle to compensate for squirt, as usual (and the stroke movement doesn't look like your drawing).

pj
chgo
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I'd like to clarify, I agree with you it's not possible to go fully through C-D with such a big stroke and a swoop as on my video, C-D is an imagined extension of a line I've contrived to explain the diagonally turned cue.

Before impact, Player Traditional is moving their stroke hand diagonally along a straight line, but one oblique to the shot line. But Player Swoop is arcing (most of the movement driving forward along the shot line, with a tiny amount of movement to the side).

If both players at the moment of impact strike the cue ball at E as you wrote so that the cues are identical in space, the arcing player is thrusting forward and the diagonal player is thrusting to one side.

Thus both are true, the cue ball "doesn't care" and gets the same english (CB contact point, speed) but also, the angle of approach is different.

Let me put it differently again. Rest your cue tip on the english spot at C towards E, then do an illegal push shot, moving on that line C-E. Now do the same, resting at C towards E, but broom the cue stick forward along the shot line, diagonally, the tip moving towards D, not E. The cue ball takes a visibly different path. A legal stroke is the same, the push stroke simply adds time of tip-to-ball connection. Therefore, less aim adjustment. And the pros who swoop like the method.

On the video I'm swooping with the backhand. However, following our prior discussion, I played shots with a preset diagonal cue as described, and could come forward through C-D, all the way. Just to be certain via field testing. I watched the ball kick with english and brought my tip far forward enough to nearly touch the long rail where I had the CB. The traditional english stroke's follow through is different.

I'd like to sum, an arc and a straight line motion are two different angles of approach into impact. And professional players tell me they require less deflection adjustment using a swoop. I and they have trouble understanding this as a misperception, since the cue ball shape proves whether both methods add a tip of right, or a tip-and-a-half of bottom left, etc. I can personally hit a given shot with both methods and see the english take the same effect with one shot requiring more aim adjustment for deflection.

Also, I'm open to being wrong and many pros being wrong. I hate things like "everyone should go chin on stick" which can be disproved by pros far above the stick. I think pros have a misperception there, but not when they can both produce identical shots with a strong preference for one method.

I won't comment further unless you have a question for me.

Thanks for discussing.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
the cue ball ... the same english (CB contact point, speed) but also, the angle of approach is different.
Click to expand...
If the direction the tip is moving at contact (angle of approach) is different, then the CB's initial direction and amount of spin are also different. That's just physics.

pj
chgo
 
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I thought you guys beat this subject to death in the "Why did Jose hit the 9 this way" thread. PJ, you know double o's MO as well or better than I do so you know he'll never admit he's wrong.

It's sad really, but Dunning Kruger has him in it's grip and he'll likely never escape. Poor guy, wish there was something we could do to help him.
 
sparkle84 said:
PJ, you know double o's MO as well or better than I do so you know he'll never admit he's wrong.
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My posts aren't about getting him to agree with me - they're about clarifying information on a public forum.

His responses to me today have been polite - probably because I've tried to be polite myself.

pj
chgo
 
sparkle84 said:
I thought you guys beat this subject to death in the "Why did Jose hit the 9 this way" thread. PJ, you know double o's MO as well or better than I do so you know he'll never admit he's wrong.

It's sad really, but Dunning Kruger has him in it's grip and he'll likely never escape. Poor guy, wish there was something we could do to help him.
Click to expand...
Hello José,

1) I'm right!

2) So is PJ!

**

I still await your response to:

"Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.

Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up."

**

WHERE BE/IS YOUR VIDEOS, JOSE CAN YOU SEE? BY DAWN HOPKINS'S EARLY LIGHT?

Play ball!
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Hello José,

1) I'm right!

2) So is PJ!

**

I still await your response to:

"Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.

Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up."

**

WHERE BE/IS YOUR VIDEOS, JOSE CAN YOU SEE? BY DAWN HOPKINS'S EARLY LIGHT?

Play ball!
Click to expand...

What, exactly, is it that you're right about?
Again, I'm perfectly happy to let the video speak for itself.
 
sparkle84 said:
What, exactly, is it that you're right about?
Again, I'm perfectly happy to let the video speak for itself.
Click to expand...
1) Right about all my assertions on this thread.

2) HOW does a video where I play pool awesomely speak for how badly you play/how little you know about our sport?

**

I still await your response to:

"Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.

Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up."

**

Where's your video, Sparkle? You can wear pantyhose over your face to keep your road game free from interference.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
1) Right about all my assertions on this thread.

2) HOW does a video where I play pool awesomely speak for how badly you play/how little you know about our sport?

**

I still await your response to:

"Spankwell, you couldn't call the carom into the 12-ball as I did at 0:50, or make the two strokes I made to sink three balls starting at 3:45, if I gave you 50 tries. You need only do those shots once then post a video here. Hint: I made that 4-ball near the head spot with a massive amount of bottom left.

Do you have any videos of you playing (I'll accept Beta or VHS or audio 8-Track)? 'Cause at this point, Mister Bond, it's put up--or shut up."

**

Where's your video, Sparkle? You can wear pantyhose over your face to keep your road game free from interference.
Click to expand...


Seeing as how the flavor of the day is cut and paste, all I can say is:
Dunning Kruger
 
sparkle84 said:
Seeing as how the flavor of the day is cut and paste, all I can say is:
Dunning Kruger
Click to expand...
Speckle,

If by Dunning-Kruger you are referring to my playing ability, you have a video from me, recorded Tuesday. Your ongoing claim was I cannot play well. Your response to SEEING ME PLAY is . . . ?

If by Dunning-Kruger you are referring to my teaching ability, would like you like to see student reponses to my Clinic post-assessment questionnaire?

If by Dunning-Kruger you are projecting your faults on to me, you're yet to respond: Do you have any videos of you playing pool I can enjoy, since I love a good comedy video on a Friday night?
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Speckle,

If by Dunning-Kruger you are referring to my playing ability, you have a video from me, recorded Tuesday. Your ongoing claim was I cannot play well. Your response to SEEING ME PLAY is . . . ?

If by Dunning-Kruger you are referring to my teaching ability, would like you like to see student reponses to my Clinic post-assessment questionnaire?

If by Dunning-Kruger you are projecting your faults on to me, you're yet to respond: Do you have any videos of you playing pool I can enjoy, since I love a good comedy video on a Friday night?
Click to expand...


When applying the DK effect towards your relationship with pool it's meant as a description of your perception of your range of knowledge and skills both. Your perception appears to be you possess great skill and knowledge. You offer the video as proof. I perceive it in a much different way.

I've tried to be nice by saying I'll let the video speak for itself. People can view it and make up their own mind as to your competence level.
You just won't accept that and continue with the name calling. If you'd like me to break it down and be more specific about my views on the video I can do that but I'd rather not.
 
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sparkle84 said:
When applying the DK effect towards your relationship with pool it's meant as a description of your perception of your range of both knowledge and skills both. Your perception appears to be you possess great skill and knowledge. You offer the video as proof. I view it in a much different way.

I've tried to be nice by saying I'll let the video speak for itself. People can view it and make up their own mind as to your competence level.
You just won't accept that and continue with the name calling. If you'd like me to break it down and be more specific about my views on the video I can do that but I'd rather not.
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Sparkle,

Your name is now mud, so we can use it if you prefer.

You "tried to be nice" by claiming I am delusional about my skills and experience as a player, teacher and coach?

I didn't ask for your voir dire on my playing for the other members of AZ, I asked if you could pull off the shots I made at 0:50 and 3:45 when I filmed myself Tuesday by your request, if I gave you 50 tries at each. If you can't, then any comments you have on my playing are useless.

As for this OP, I didn't ask you to start another garbage thread on one word you think I omitted from an article, I asked you to have something intelligent to say on the article I posted by your request, written freshly for AZ, at: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...nedy-matt-sherman.553972/page-14#post-7563564 -- and if you have nothing intelligent to say to respond to my article, any comments you have on my instruction are useless.

I've also offered you free lessons, so instead of saying disgusting things about me or Tom Kennedy--one of the finest people in the sport today--you would become my advocate. If you accuse a man of being a fraud without testing his credentials, your reviews are useless.

And if you are a gentleman you shall post next, "You're right, Matt, you can play pool very well, communicate well, and teach well." Short of that, your next post will likewise be useless.

And before I forget, let me ask you again, you "tried to be nice" by claiming I am delusional about my skills and experience as a player, teacher and coach?
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Sparkle,

Your name is now mud, so we can use it if you prefer.

You "tried to be nice" by claiming I am delusional about my skills and experience as a player, teacher and coach?

I didn't ask for your voir dire on my playing for the other members of AZ, I asked if you could pull off the shots I made at 0:50 and 3:45 when I filmed myself Tuesday by your request, if I gave you 50 tries at each. If you can't, then any comments you have on my playing are useless.

As for this OP, I didn't ask you to start another garbage thread on one word you think I omitted from an article, I asked you to have something intelligent to say on the article I posted by your request, written freshly for AZ, at: https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...nedy-matt-sherman.553972/page-14#post-7563564 -- and if you have nothing intelligent to say to respond to my article, any comments you have on my instruction are useless.

I've also offered you free lessons, so instead of saying disgusting things about me or Tom Kennedy--one of the finest people in the sport today--you would become my advocate. If you accuse a man of being a fraud without testing his credentials, your reviews are useless.

And if you are a gentleman you shall post next, "You're right, Matt, you can play pool very well, communicate well, and teach well." Short of that, your next post will likewise be useless.

And before I forget, let me ask you again, you "tried to be nice" by claiming I am delusional about my skills and experience as a player, teacher and coach?
Click to expand...

Apparently you've never heard the phrase... Quantity isn't necessarily quality.

Yes or no. Would you like me to give my thoughts on your video?
Open the can or not, up to you.
 
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sparkle84 said:
Apparently you've never heard the phrase... Quantity isn't necessarily quality.

Yes or no. Would you like me to give my thoughts on your video?
Open the can or not, up to you.
Click to expand...
This has gone on far too long.

Jesus loves you, and I do too, I've tried my utmost, let's move on.

I'm always open to learning if you want to send video comments to me via PM. But this thread needs to end.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
I understand and agree, also, experimentation yields better results than obstinacy. Students who drink my koolaid also playfully try alternative strokes.

But for me on this particular shot, we're talking about cinching a very challenging shape with a nearly 100% success rate.
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If the "challenging shape" is the shot you play in the side pocket, it's really not that challenging. With the ob so close to the pocket, manipulating the path of the cb is very easy, considering the fact that there's such a large portion of the ob to work with (you can hit the ob anywhere on the cut side and pocket it).
 
BilliardsAbout said:
This has gone on far too long.

Jesus loves you, and I do too, I've tried my utmost, let's move on.

I'm always open to learning if you want to send video comments to me via PM. But this thread needs to end.
Click to expand...

I understand your reluctance. Didn't go very well last time you opened the can.
 
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