Any Independent Pool Leagues

K

Kevin3824

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been playing pool on and off for a long time now. I to this day will not participate in bar leagues. I have spoken to pool hall owners as well as professionals about the leagues and keep hearing the same things about both the APA and the TAPS leagues being corrupt. The handicap systems being flawed.

Honestly, I would like to know if there are any leagues out there that promote participants to play their best pool. If you must have a handicap system in place why cant it be an individual handicap instead of involving the performance of other team members in personal handicaps. Are there any amature leagues out there that are run on a personal basis like a tournament would be. I understand that handicapping systems are in place to allow players of any skill to play other players of different skill levels fairly. I have no issue with a league tracking personal my shots to determine my skill level then putting me up against players of similar abilities. My issue is when they put a highly skilled player against a beginner or vice versa and then impose their own version of handicap to even the playing field. Why can't they simply have players of the same skill set play against each other in the first place. In some of the leagues there is a limit to how many point of skill are allowed on a team as well as limits to how many players on a team. I guess what that would indicate is if your skill set went up your handicap would either not go up or you would have to leave the team if they were already at maximum. With TAPS and APA I hear many times people are sandbagging games so their handicap does not hurt them . I have heard of team captains telling players to throw the game so their team can have better standings etc.. All the bar leagues I have seen work on team ranking over player ranking. I guess what I am really looking for is a rating system not a handicap system.
 
Kevin3824 said:
I have been playing pool on and off for a long time now. I to this day will not participate in bar leagues. I have spoken to pool hall owners as well as professionals about the leagues and keep hearing the same things about both the APA and the TAPS leagues being corrupt. The handicap systems being flawed.

Honestly, I would like to know if there are any leagues out there that promote participants to play their best pool. If you must have a handicap system in place why cant it be an individual handicap instead of involving the performance of other team members in personal handicaps. Are there any amature leagues out there that are run on a personal basis like a tournament would be. I understand that handicapping systems are in place to allow players of any skill to play other players of different skill levels fairly. I have no issue with a league tracking personal my shots to determine my skill level then putting me up against players of similar abilities. My issue is when they put a highly skilled player against a beginner or vice versa and then impose their own version of handicap to even the playing field. Why can't they simply have players of the same skill set play against each other in the first place. In some of the leagues there is a limit to how many point of skill are allowed on a team as well as limits to how many players on a team. I guess what that would indicate is if your skill set went up your handicap would either not go up or you would have to leave the team if they were already at maximum. With TAPS and APA I hear many times people are sandbagging games so their handicap does not hurt them . I have heard of team captains telling players to throw the game so their team can have better standings etc.. All the bar leagues I have seen work on team ranking over player ranking. I guess what I am really looking for is a rating system not a handicap system.
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APA masters league has not handicap. And I believe BCA has leagues with no handicap.
 
Kevin3824 said:
I have been playing pool on and off for a long time now. I to this day will not participate in bar leagues....snip....
Click to expand...

Keep looking around. Don't rely on someone elses opinion. Try some out see if you find one that fits.

I got lucky and found a BCA non handicap league. I stink and could use the handicap help against most of the other players but I enjoy the head to head competition.
 
i second the masters division.

an alternative would be napa. no team handicap limit . longer races between high and low handicap players. pretty simple handicapping...you win you go up...you lose you go down.
 
American Rotation is something to look into, depending on your area. You play everyone even to 140 points round robin style. Stronger players make up the bulk of the leagues and it's a pretty cool game IMO. Luck and rolls play a factor in nearly all games, but for a rotation based game a lot of the rolls are taken out by it being call shot.
 
Good luck finding the holy grail of pool leagues as the way I see it is that in every league, no matter what it is, you are going to have people gaming the system to either stroke their ego, win more money or a combination of both.

Anyone that plays in any league that does not go out to shoot and win every game of every match, is a poor sportsman and a moron. No matter what justification they try to give.

APA tried to reduce sandbagging by introducing a new team scoring system and I think it has helped. In that league you can also throw all the games you want after you are initially rated and it will not affect your rating as only wins are considered so you trying to sandbag could very well hurt your team more than helping it.

Ultimately unless every match is watched and reviewed by people that know pool and can analyze one's play (strategy and ball making) you are not ever going to get 100% accuracy in the player's skill level. Anything less is simply best effort.
 
I’ve played APA, BCA, and bar league with modified bar rules. I liked BCA the best for play but didn’t like their fees, most of the money went to the top two teams , and it’s to long with 33 weeks to finals. APA was enjoyable but drags on too late and you don’t get any money back. I liked the bar league best with 12 or 16 weeks, had no handicap system but had four levels of team play. The team that wins their division moves up to the next higher division. There was 2 or 3 top teams that were always contenders for first but the the league paid back most of the monies so, unless you were in the bottom teams you got back some of your money. This was a fun league with all skill levels and a closed Calcutta tournament at the end. It really boils down to, do you have team mates you enjoy being around and teams that exhibit good sportsmanship.
 
Any independent league

Plainbutt.

BCAPL national office has nothing to with payouts or lengths of sessions! Our nationals are not handicapped - but there are different divisions. Check it out.

Our use of FargoRate will become the gold standard for rating players. Which will result in better matches and competition. It's the future

702-719-7665

Www.playcsipool.com
Www.playbcapool.com

Mark griffin
 
Our BCA league is setup as best I think is possible, but still be competitive and fair to all.

- We use the 17 point system. Top players are around a 12. Bottom around 5.
- Teams are drafted at the beginning of the year, so all the teams end up very close in overall skill level.
- Handicaps are only used for the team to team scoring. i.e. my 5 players add up to 44 and your team adds up to 41.... you get 3 points a round.
- 5 rounds and 1 extra round for total match points.
- There is awards (Vegas trips) for top teams and for top X number of players.
- It never makes sense for someone to throw games to improve their handicap as it will hurt the team's chance to win the overall points.

I've never played in APA, but I'm sure I'd hate it based on what I've heard.
 
I have spent the last day or so researching APA and BCA in my area. I have found pages that indicate the APA Masters does not use their handicapping system. However, they also do not mention how to find or get into a masters league directly without having to be a part of their handicapping system at first. I was actually very impressed with the BCA league and their handicapping system as it is the same worldwide therefore if once you attain a rank it is recognized world wide. problem for me now is finding a league close enough to me to be able to get to work in downtown scranton by eleven pm.
 
It does tell you. Contact your local APA league operator.
http://www.poolplayers.com/franchise/franchise-territories/
Put in your zip code, select the area and it will give you the person's contact information that runs the league.

I can't imagine you have to have an established rating to join a league that requires no rating and if you did I would assume it would be no different than a new player joining any other league (unrated 3/4).
 
Yes....a independent, alternative league is viable and in fact, extremely popular, at least in Fresno, CA.

A few years ago, the independent APA operator totally mishandled the league and in fact tried to force
the new independent league out of business by banning APA players that were too involved with this
new league......the operaotr was also manipulatng the league to suit their own purposes on rules
decisions, stacking the board, lousy payouts, unresponsiveness to complaints and so APA forced the
franchise to be sold. There's now a new operator of the local APA league.

However, in the meantime, the new independent league sucked away most of the APA teams to the new
league where there was 99.9% payout of the money........it's really 100% but no one would believe that but
Mike Tucci does not keep any of the money paid for the weekly matches.....The FTB League (Fresno Team
Billiards) at The Break Room (Fresno, CA) returns all of the weekly matches money 100% so as you might
magine, FTB quickly became.....and still remains by a long shot......the largest pool league in Fresno and it
is an independent pool league too dominating APA & BCA . FTB operates leagues for both 7' and 9" tables
which is nice....100% payback to the top teams so the payout is substantial.....559-276-9000....Mike Tucci or
Phil Costales......2 great guys that own The Break Room.

Matt B.
 
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Wow yet another thread putting down 1 League vs Another. I'd like to pose a few questions, and present a few points. All in an effort to once again avert what could be a League Bashing Thread.

Question 1. Why does anyone join a league, or more directly why did you?

Question 2. Why does anyone expect any monetary return by playing in a League?

Question 3. If any Money is awarded at the end of a Session how much should be awarded and why?

Question 4. At the End of a Session what is the next step in the advancement of the winners? And what is the motivation to push to the next level?

Question 5. What's at the Ultimate end of the Proverbial Line?

Let's start with these 5 Questions and start some dialogue.

Point 1. In regards to Handicaps no matter whos system it is, the only way for it to work is for everyone to follow the rules with integrity. That's not the LO's responsibility that's the responsibility of players, and more importantly the Team Captains.

Point 2. All Leagues be them National, Local or In House have reasons for being in existence. Just like Baskin Robbins there's a Flavor out there if you taste enough find one that you like.

I recently joined a TAP League after playing APA for 15 years (I still play APA by the way) for the main purposes of finding out facts. So far my findings are not favorable for TAP. That's for another discussion, but I bring it up for the fact that should I continue to play it will be for the fact that I enjoy the Team I'm on, and the competition it brings each week.

So, let's get the DIALOUGE GOING...

Black Cat :cool:
 
Black Cat 5791 said:
Wow yet another thread putting down 1 League vs Another. I'd like to pose a few questions, and present a few points. All in an effort to once again avert what could be a League Bashing Thread.

Question 1. Why does anyone join a league, or more directly why did you?

Question 2. Why does anyone expect any monetary return by playing in a League?

Question 3. If any Money is awarded at the end of a Session how much should be awarded and why?

Question 4. At the End of a Session what is the next step in the advancement of the winners? And what is the motivation to push to the next level?

Question 5. What's at the Ultimate end of the Proverbial Line?

Let's start with these 5 Questions and start some dialogue.

Point 1. In regards to Handicaps no matter whos system it is, the only way for it to work is for everyone to follow the rules with integrity. That's not the LO's responsibility that's the responsibility of players, and more importantly the Team Captains.

Point 2. All Leagues be them National, Local or In House have reasons for being in existence. Just like Baskin Robbins there's a Flavor out there if you taste enough find one that you like.

I recently joined a TAP League after playing APA for 15 years (I still play APA by the way) for the main purposes of finding out facts. So far my findings are not favorable for TAP. That's for another discussion, but I bring it up for the fact that should I continue to play it will be for the fact that I enjoy the Team I'm on, and the competition it brings each week.

So, let's get the DIALOUGE GOING...

Black Cat :cool:
Click to expand...

your effort is futile with the apa bashers on here but i will play along.:grin-square

1. i joined league for one simple reason... i like to play pool.

2. i am not a pro or a gambler so i don't play pool for money......more on that later.

3. read answer 2.

4.the answerto that really depends on each individual lo. it seems to me thay all do it different even within the same league system.

5. for me it would be to attain a 7/7 s/l beofore i quit playing. dont see it happening though in my old age.

point 1. i agree with you and i have stated the same thing on here many times.

point 2. again i agree and have said the same thing on here.

i have been known to defend apa a time or two on here:) i suppose some people could misconstrue that as putting down the league they play in but that is not the case. i am merely putting down their opinion of apa.

i have played bcapl and although i am not a fan of the round robin format i did enjoy it, i just did not enjoys some members holier than thou attitude and they way they thumb their noses at lesser skilled players. this forum has quite a few members that display that attitude also.

i have played napa. best handicap league out there ....imo of course.

i have played various money leagues. way too much sandbagging and drama for me. nothing brings out the worst in pool players like playing for money.

i currently play apa handicapped league. dang near every one on here know my position on that.:grin-square:

i also play apa masters. best amateur league format available imo of course.
 
Kevin3824 said:
I have been playing pool on and off for a long time now. I to this day will not participate in bar leagues. I have spoken to pool hall owners as well as professionals about the leagues and keep hearing the same things about both the APA and the TAPS leagues being corrupt. The handicap systems being flawed.

Honestly, I would like to know if there are any leagues out there that promote participants to play their best pool. If you must have a handicap system in place why cant it be an individual handicap instead of involving the performance of other team members in personal handicaps. Are there any amature leagues out there that are run on a personal basis like a tournament would be. I understand that handicapping systems are in place to allow players of any skill to play other players of different skill levels fairly. I have no issue with a league tracking personal my shots to determine my skill level then putting me up against players of similar abilities. My issue is when they put a highly skilled player against a beginner or vice versa and then impose their own version of handicap to even the playing field. Why can't they simply have players of the same skill set play against each other in the first place. In some of the leagues there is a limit to how many point of skill are allowed on a team as well as limits to how many players on a team. I guess what that would indicate is if your skill set went up your handicap would either not go up or you would have to leave the team if they were already at maximum. With TAPS and APA I hear many times people are sandbagging games so their handicap does not hurt them . I have heard of team captains telling players to throw the game so their team can have better standings etc.. All the bar leagues I have seen work on team ranking over player ranking. I guess what I am really looking for is a rating system not a handicap system.
Click to expand...


Check around for a in house league. I shoot in a In house Cash 9 ball league we use BCA rules. Also you can check some of the masters leagues also. Most of them around here are also in house leagues.

If it wasn't so far for me to drive I would play in it also. Many areas the APA leagues are a joke due to sandbaggers just trying to get to Vegas. They need a better scoring system.
 
BCBC League

Check out the local independent league I helped form in 2009

http://bcbcpoolleague.info/

It runs as smooth as can be, with 24 teams and close to 200 players. All teams are within 10-15mins driving time of each other.

We actually even have a waiting list every session of teams that want to join every session, which IMO says a lot of the strength of the league..

Check it out, and if you have any questions I can try and answer them..:thumbup:
 
Rain-Man...No offense, but you have a local league that has remained stagnant at 24 teams for the past 6 years...big deal. Try running a league that is 10x that big (and some APA franchises are 50x bigger...over 1000 teams). The APA system works well for what it is...an entry level league for recreational players.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Rain-Man said:
Check out the local independent league I helped form in 2009

http://bcbcpoolleague.info/

It runs as smooth as can be, with 24 teams and close to 200 players. All teams are within 10-15mins driving time of each other.

We actually even have a waiting list every session of teams that want to join every session, which IMO says a lot of the strength of the league..

Check it out, and if you have any questions I can try and answer them..:thumbup:
Click to expand...
 
I really was not trying to put any league against the other or bash any league. Each has its own positives and negatives. I work third shift Sunday thru Thursday. There does not seem to be a lot of leagues in my area in general. Especially that play on Friday or Saturday nights or can be counted on to be completed with enough time for me to get to work by eleven pm. I want to find a group of people to play and compete with that will continually help me to become a better player. Not just good enough to Vegas or Atlantic city. I am not nearly good enough in my own opinion at this point but I know with a lot of practice time spent on a decent table I could be one day. I keep hearing I should play people that are better then I am to improve my game. I play mostly at home at this point and the table I have is less then standard quality. In the near future (probably in January) I will be investing in a Diamond of my own. I am 50 years old and would like to one day have the skill set of a pro. I know I will likely not have that amount of skills overnight but am thinking maybe before I am sixty. I don't have a lot of room in my apt for bigger then a bar sized table so that is what I will likely get once again even though I think a 9' might be better to practice on. The leagues I see are mostly bar boxes. I will likely join one of the leagues simply to get the 250 off the price of my new table.
 
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Scott Lee said:
Rain-Man...No offense, but you have a local league that has remained stagnant at 24 teams for the past 6 years...big deal. Try running a league that is 10x that big (and some APA franchises are 50x bigger...over 1000 teams). The APA system works well for what it is...an entry level league for recreational players.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

I think your a little off base here Scott :scratchhead:

I didnt mention APA or TAP whatsoever. I play both APA (Monday 8-Ball) and TAP (Tuesday 9-ball and Wednesday 8-Ball), and enjoy them both...

I have minor issues with each, but that wasnt my point in mentioning our local BCBC league. Im was in no way knocking APA or TAP :smile:

(also, I consider a 'local league' and a 'franchise' to be two different things)


The OP asked:

Kevin3824 said:
Honestly, I would like to know if there are any leagues out there that promote participants to play their best pool.
Click to expand...

My response was to his quoted question above..

We have a league, with a handicapping system, that has virtually eliminated sandbagging, by incentivizing players and teams to try their best on a weekly basis (and not 'sandbag' for the playoffs).

If you lose on purpose ('bag'), your simply hurting your teams position in the regular season standings, which is where ALL the monetary incentives are paid towards (playoffs are simply for plastic trophy's or plaques).


As for your comment that our league has remained 'stagnant' for the past 6 years, yes it has.

Intentionally.

The league was not designed to be a 'for profit' league like APA and TAP (and I dont have a problem that they are :smile:), and therefore has zero incentive to grow any larger than it is (as I mentioned in my original post, we have a waiting list for teams to join)..

We came to the conclusion that, for us in our area, 24 teams is the perfect number.

In doing so, we tried to address some of the complaints we heard most often for APA/TAP players.

- Sandbagging

Regular season is where all the money is (Playoffs are for plaques and trophies). I believe (and I do not run the league) that the top 50% (12 teams) get paid out in a progressive order (1st to 12th). The higher you finish, the more money your team earns.

- Personal player Incentives

Break n Runs and 8-balls on the break are awarded $5 for each one. Might not seem like much, but its better than a patch, and can add up for your better players over a session, and is another layer to promote them (and everyone), to try their best every game and match.

- Travel time to locations

I cannot begin to tell you how many times I hear players complying about how FAR they have to drive to play in their other leagues.

Our entire league is within about an 8 mile radius.

- Reward higher finishing team(s) with home playoff matches

(This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine with both TAP and APA. I cant stand when we have a 7pm Wed. night league, and the playoffs are held on a weekend morning! AND at either a location 30 miles away or a location that has a team that finished near the bottom of the regular season standings, but they get awarded the 'home field advantage'.)

Playoff matches are played ON THE REGULAR NIGHT OF THE WEEK AS REGULAR SEASON, AND START AT THE SAME TIME AS NORMAL.

Higher seeded teams (and the business) are rewarded HOME MATCHES in the playoffs, INCLUDING the championship match.

- Flexibility towards change for the better

Unlike other leagues, where EVERYTHING seems to be set in stone, and complaints REPEATEDLY seem to fall on def ears, we have a captains meeting once a year. All complaints are addressed and voted on by the players representatives (the Captains).

If something needs fixed, its addressed and fixed..


NOW, is this league perfect? Nope, I have a few things I'd like to change, but Im in the minority on them, and thats ok with me.. But this is by far the smoothest running league I've ever seen, with what seems like every single players in it , happy with how it operates (and ZERO complaints on sandbagging :thumbup:)

And really, isnt that the goal, to make the players happy with their league...;)



......................................................
 
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